How did the US lose the knowledge of making chips when they were the pioneers of this field and have the best univ and R&D centers in the world
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I still don't get it
How did the US lose the knowledge of making chips when they were the pioneers of this field and have the best univ and R&D centers in the world
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52 billion is still better than than the over 1 trillion i read about the other day
just tell the Black folk they wont have foodstamps for a year
We could have both computer chips and food stamps if the US stopped pretending that their military is relevant.
the US could just print 50 billion more whats rhe big deal?
We already have enough stagflation. Just stop making those useless trillion dollar drones that do nothing.
Its fiddy bil that will make you an actual return and wont leave you dependant on the chinamen for your chips. Instead they're sending money to Ukraine which will result in WW3.
That's how your Tesla gets stuck on railroad tracks.
I'm not talking about civilian drones i'm talking about the oversized unmanned fighter jets and UAVs in the Middle East.
>the US could just print 50 billion more whats rhe big deal?
Wait, you want something useful to happen with that monopoly money? Hell no goy, that's to make me rich not you!
great idea now when russia and china are feeling particularly genocidal
The US military can't do anything realistically to either stop a Chinese invasion of Taiwan or a Russian invasion of Ukraine without risking a nuclear war, stop being moronic
what if they just invade taiwan first.
gotcga b***h.
and for that reason it's better if the entire military industrial complex is abolished? go back, ivan
what's the purpose of a conventional army when you have nukes besides invading another country, which as we have learned is considered bad now?
well theres a time and place for violence and i think right about now would be a good time to use said violence.
tell those fricking israelites to either build the fricking thing or they wont be allowed to sell their chips anywhere. either that or threaten the taiwan chinks.
would ukraine be able to defend themselves right now without a conventional army? what do you think?
They would if they had nukes. Actually, if they had nukes they wouldn't even have to defend themselves.
so your idea is to give every country nukes then?
except india
India already has nukes
I don't know. I just know that I want whatever country I live in to have nukes, and I guess everyone else feels the same. Who am I to say they can't.
For the record, the country I live in does not have nukes. It's probably fine, because nobody is threatening the country at the moment. However, there is no guarantee that will change.
In any case, I'm more for nukes than joining NATO. More independence, probably cheaper, unfortunately, might make NATO very angry.
I meant to write "that won't change".
>which as we have learned is considered bad now?
On the contrary, I think I've heard that it was considiered less bad now, and that maybe very little nukes could be actually used
I think that was from putin but it may also be US as well
Nuclear war it is
A Chinese invasion of Taiwan is pure fantasy. Even the Ukraine invasion is sane by comparison (and, let's be real, the only reason Putin did that was because he thought Ukraine wouldn't fight). The CCP uses it to drum up nationalistic fervor any time they have problems at home (such as, you know, a debt crisis). But in addition to being economic and political suicide, they really don't have a chance at beating Taiwan because the island is a fortress. The US Navy wouldn't even get involved all it would need to do is prevent the Chinese Navy from blockading Taiwan which it could easily do.
US has a defense treaty with Taiwan. They are obligated to intervene.
US does NOT have a defense treaty with Ukraine.
>russia and china are feeling particularly genocidal
what the frick are you doing here, go back to facebook
this feels like the cold war again
you don't win by dumping all your money in the military
that's a good way to end up on the losing side aka soviet union
Y'all have these students from the MIT/Stanford, etc. and still can't beat some chink island which just copied your factories in the 90s?
Well you also have to consider the timing. They want to have this stuff done in 5 years max I think,.
Getting government money is a good way to make it take a frick of a lot longer.
its not like a startup is going to raise 52 billion dollars or anything near that amount i think.
the only thing they teach at american universities is how to be gay
TSMC and ASML pioneered modern immersion lithography. Hell Taiwan pioneered immersion lithography. It's the basis for all modern lithography
It's almost as if the problem is a financial structure and debt related problem, not a labour problem.
It's almost like a ponzi scheme isn't an effective economy at all and is, in fact, a mere scheme that diminishes real production.
This is what happens when money becomes mere leverage, not opportunity. It's fricking pointless as an exercise.
Don't worry, this will begin to happen in Asia too.
It's already happened in India and Africa, the side effects of over population and a lack of correct debt management for centuries.
The vast majority of MIT students go into swe, finance, or mechE (swe with extra steps) jobs.
t.went there
Imagine if they could acquire a loan that wasn't essentially a Saw gauntlet.
Then they could probably produce far more competitive corporations to compete with Asia.
But unfortunately your government is literally controlled by foreign governments nowadays.
>Y'all
didnt read
Me too. fr fr, we chilling, bazinga?
on god, why are you sussin me bruh? you a hater? fr no cap
the knowledge of making chips in the 90s is not the same as the knowledge of making chips in the 2020s. Even if all that knowledge was retained, which it isn't, it's of no use.
Outsourcing. It looked like a good idea in the 90s but now it's biting everyone (aka the West) in the ass.
Greece used to be center of mathematics, but nobody would associate mathematics with the modern Greek. TMSC is the leading company in semiconductor manufacturing R&D, to say the US has the best R&D is simply not true.
It also helps that in modern Greece all scientists are considered to be sub humans. real men (tm) do philosophy, archaeology or the like. Maths is for losers. And that tends to have consequences.
All the chips they're making in TSMC are literally designed by engineers in the US.
-T fables semiconductor company employee
Yes, but he said
>manufacturing r&d
The US is leagues behind in manufacturing
>Ok TSMC, just make the chips smaller bro
Literally that Bill Burr joke about how Steve Jobs just told people to make stuff and took credit for the "engineering"
>how did a country that spent the last 30-40 years letting primitives swarmin instead of looking after its own people lose its advantages?
What advantage loss, TSMC has been the biggest semiconductor foundry since it started, precisely because it doesn't stick to some moronic concept of chip manufacturing nationalism you apparently think is beneficial.
The biggest by capacity is Samsung, but a majority of it goes to their memory and storage business
they didn't lose its just unprofitable to manufacture in the west and bureaucrats have been pushing globalization all the time. Now you need a lot of money to make a new fab which the government doesn't want to invest.
If tsmc instead promised to build a tank or other weapons factory in the US they would have shoved hunderes of billion up their ass.
hahahahahahahhhaah imagine TSMC force America for money
They already do.
The US is so utterly dependent on TSMC (and also UMC which also is on Taiwan) that the US will have to defend Taiwan at all cost. At one point the US placed two carrier groups in the straight between China and Taiwan.
tsmc produces American, British chips. And it uses European machines for this. But yeah, chinks have the experience in manufacturing now. Because they do the most of the manufacturing thanks to low costs.
Because TSMC cannot afford expensive US slave
>How did the US lose the knowledge
The US never lost what it had but it also never paid the billions needed yearly to gain new knowledge. And it that new knowledge that puts TSMC at the top. The cost is 30+ billions, every year.
>blocks your path
The horrid tiling on that building is so repugnant I can vomit just by looking at the thumbnail.
ASML sells to multiple companies the same machine they to TSMC. There's still only one TSMC.
hello, a /3dpg/ anon here, I see no reason why lithography must be exclusive to this stupid company
IQfy must come together, IQfy x IQfy, we will home brew lithography, and forever btfo asml and every fab in the entire world, precision for the masses
i work in a fab there is also Nikon and Cannon litho tools
What is the finest resolution those can deliver?
Hello fellow fab bro. I am a tech in thin films. Whats your position?
>sigh
>machine, please engage
I'll be impressed if you can even get a 130nm fab going. And 130nm is open source
Americans didn't lose anything. It's all about money. It's cheaper to make chips in Republic of China.
The US has moved to nonstandard analog circuits such as memristors.
inevitable consequence of outsourcing manufacturing to people with a higher average IQ
as muttistan becomes shorter fatter dumber east Asia becomes taller and smarter
Anerifatistans only hope is to construct gated communities and use their existing capital to brain drain their competition but it isn't a long term strategy
you need to produce domestic r&d to compete
East Asia isn't becoming anything. It's dying out due to no one having sex.
yboi cope. SEA is exploding in population
not thailand.
t.lives in thailand
hasn't thailand been having a coup every other year for the past decade?
im not a local
i think it has to do with with people who agree or disagree with the king on government or something
i for one agree with the king btw. dont give me a hard time getting my papers thx
Their fertility decline has already begun. It'll get much worse once the global food crisis sets in.
>they need to make MORE people so MORE people can starve!
You really didn't think that through, did you?
More population only increases per capita income due to increased efficiency through higher possible specialization/technological "snowballing" up to a point. You reach a point where you can't increase the carrying capacity of the land to accommodate the larger population, and everyone just gets poorer. You might increase overall output a bit more, but that's only meaningful in relation to another group. (your billions may be poor, but they make a huge military that can steamroll anybody else)
You can't just infinitely increase the quality of life by cramming more people into a given area, so "population increase" should not be seen as the be all and end all metric of "success." Beyond the optimum, you're just going downhill.
The job supply issue is a false issue.
It's really a capital structure issue, but the people running businesses nowadays are literally morons that get that position or acquire capital through blatant lying.
If anything, the job supply shortage has exposed the administrative class as completely fraudulent in their behaviour.
>It's dying out due to no one having sex.
And homosexual LGBTQARP14nm++ produce no offspring. What is your point?
>LGBTQARP14nm++
tbh this dose look like a legit IC or CPU name
>It's dying out due to no one having sex.
so are whites, but asians are still fricking more than whites at this moment.
>so are whites, but asians are still fricking more than whites at this moment.
Now that's 100% cope.
go look at the birthrates and then come back here
>as muttistan becomes shorter fatter dumber east Asia becomes taller and smarter
Obesity is a rising issue in many East Asian countries, in fact.
Mutts just hate having to make their own shit because it's inherently expensive.
>inherently expensive
So buying 50 big jumbo burger deluxe everyday isn't expensive lifestyle? That's the very definition of "dumb".
Your post is incredibly disingenuous and you should feel embarrassed for posting it.
Why are all of ASML's EUV parts made in the US by ex-Cymer?
AMD shit the bed and sold out.
Intel was never an American company
What do you mean by both of those statements?
Wait what?
From what i know western companies are the only one who produces processors that worth mention. Chinks just buy from west.
Who would have thought that giving all your tech for free and then filling your companies and universities with gorillas and other third worlders would lead to that.
does this mean I have to buy a gpu now?
>How did the US lose the knowledge of making chips when they were the pioneers of this field and have the best univ and R&D centers in the world
The same as with other technologies, they relied too heavily on other countries to make their stuff cheap, believing in your hubris that those countries were filled with stupid people. Turns out, some of those people were not as smart as them, but smarter, and they gave the tech for free for some years of increased revenue.
You gave china your tech to gain cents, and it ended costing you billions. Meanwhile you churn students outta college that keep searchin for platforms to make stupíd demands when they should be preoccupied with how the frick they are going to compete with those countries that you looked over the shoulder, like the beforementioned china or south korea.
i could understand how people got fat back when mcdonalds was cheap but i dont even know how people can even afford to be fat anymore.
How much can the semiconductor and chip industry be automated in the future?
>the best univ and R&D centers in the world
They aren't, at least not for everything.
More specifically, Philips took a huge (and very risky!) bet on EUV chip manufacturing systems, and that bet paid off, though the tech was spun out into ASML. (The US didn't take that bet, and so ended up a long way behind in the manufacture of these specialized tools. ASML are pretty happy to sell to US companies though.) TSMC have done very well with integrating that, and have had the good luck to have the right mix of innovation and conservatism in the rest of the process; they're just the world leaders at chip manufacturing these days.
But TSMC are specialists: they make the chips, but they don't design them. This is good for them, as it makes their finances a lot simpler (and it takes a colossal amount of money to make a modern chip factory).
Intel used to be good, but they've had a lot of troubles with their manufacturing side in the past few years. They still know a lot about chip design and support firmware and stuff like that. But they were really the last corp to integrate manufacturing and design. (Samsung does both too, but they're effectively two entirely different companies in a trench coat that's branded Samsung; chaebols are not very deeply integrated.)
chinese make useful line employees while every americattle you're forced to hire is a net negative
Frick semiconductors. Microelectromechanical systems are the wave of the future
There is also nanomechanical. Did you read Diamond Age?
They didn't lose any knowledge, you incredible fricking spastic. Taiwan just invested money into fabs US companies didn't want to.
No wonder morons like you are permanent NEETs. You're too dumb to be out in the world.
>they didn't lose expertise and capital structures to render their Army incapable of making it's own equipment using the free market
I think you're too dumb to be out in the world.
>US
Increases in regulations led to increase in cost
Decrease in incentives for companies led to less investment from companies
Hostility towards companies meant less investment
>Taiwan
Heavy incentives led to companies investing heavily
Less regulation led to companies investing heavily
Favoritibility towards companies led to heavy investing
Combine those two and you have lot of negatives for companies in US and lot of positivity in Taiwan.
outsourcing. the people at the top are still rich so it's working out really well for them.
Outsourcing happens for one reason.
Its more efficient/cheaper/faster.
You Black folk realize we could simply take TSMC and nobody would say a word?
Taiwan is our b***h.
PRC isn't going to invade Taiwan outside of a campaign of total extermination and power projection into the western Pacific (a.k.a Empire of Japan's original ambition).
Taiwan (ROC) and PRC both know that hi-tech infrastructure is only strategic value that Formosa possesses. It is too close to mainland to effective as as naval and aeral staging area.
> has no idea about the first island chain
t. moron
> Intel assfricks AMD with anticompetitive practices
> AMD has to spin off their fabs (which became Global Foundries), selling them off to the sandBlack folk
> Intel got complacent without a serious competitor and went full moron, leading to the 10 nm shitshow
> meanwhile, Apple used their "Frick You" money from their iPhone sales to fatten up TSMC over the years to the point they overtook Intel
> here we are
All I read is:
>corporations do not care about countries or demographics now
Just wait until they stop caring whether the employee is a person or a robot.
>starts to compare moral risks with employees vs bots
People will not stand a chance. Bots are effectively slaves to these corporations.
Btw this is actually a technological related issue and is actually suited to this board, unlike OP's bait which didn't even bring this up.
By China, Japan, Korea and Taiwan financially manipulating things for decades so they could usurp that industry.
Yeah Asians have no soul.
LMAO
Go back 4+ years into the past. Everyone was claiming TSMC is fake and Intel's 10nm (not yet released) is equivalent to TSMC's 7nm.
They didn't lose the knowledge, they lost the infrastructure because operating plants in the US costs more than operating plants in East Asia.
None of this matters though. This has gone from a business problem to a national security one, and the CEOs and shareholders are going to find their taxes being "randomly audited" unless they frick off and build some fabs on US soil. It will only take one or two being arrested for the rest to fall in line.
The Japanese were beating US during 80-90, Japan's share of semiconductor market went from 13% in 1978 to 91% in 1988. Intel and AMD almost went bankrupt.
The US later tried and successfully forced Japan to sign a semiconductor agreement in1986 which sought to limit how low the Japanese can sell their semiconductor, and even limit their production to ensure some market share for the American manufacturer.
In 1987, US put a 100% tariff on Japanese's good worth 300 millions, mostly semiconductor related. In the same year, US government also forced Fujitsu to cancel their acquisitions plan of Fairchild semiconductor
Despite all that, US semiconductor never got back in, but instead other country like South Korea and Taiwan who are outside this fight took the opportunity.
Forgot to add, here is a photo of US lawmakers smashing Toshiba Radio with a sledgehammer in US Capitol. 1987
That was over the Toshiba Kongsberg scandal. Japan and Toshiba secretly sold manufacturing equipment used in the milling of propellers on stealth subs to the USSR in violation of the multinational COCOM rules. Completely unrelated.
It's a bit that, but it's mostly the enormous butt hurt at the time about how powerful Japan were getting. There were articles saying that Japan was going to overtake the US as the world's biggest economy, and they would make all the high tech stuff while we made paper umbrellas and dog toys. So the US absolutely had to frick them over with the Plaza Accords, trade wars, tariffs etc.
>It's a bit that
No, it's literally that. That's right after the scandal was discovered. The japs literally sold equipment to make nuclear warhead equipped stealth subs during the Cold War. Trying to paint that as some US boogeyman shit is moronic.
too lazy to work for pennies
TSMC don't do anything innovative they're just good at manufacturing and shrinking nodes.
Adequate bait, almost.
Jews want to destroy America by destabilising it with migratiants. Affects industry and all else.
>How did the US lose the knowledge of making chips
cool it with antisemitic remarks
America chases new to a fault. Nobody wanted to compete with Intel because fabs were old hat. Then when Intel shat the bed there were no serious competitors state side to take advantage of it because all the talent was chasing cloud infrastructure or e scooter sharing services or whatever. America's never been about quality; it's always been about money. Good processors were just a means to an end. The easiest way to make money is to dominate a market. The best way to dominate a market is to do something nobody else can do.