I want to read philosophy, but I’m too bored reading Plato. I’ve finished three or four of his writings, but I’m not really sure where to go from here. What philosophy book should I try next if I’m bored by the Greeks?
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Have you tried Aristotle?
I have not tried Aristotle. What am I in for and what should I start with (specifically)?
You will not understand philosophy if you don't understand the Greeks.
Aristotle is a much more boring writer than Plato
So just keep reading Plato? I’m intimidated by all of this.
Stop reading Plato and read the Iliad and then start with the pre-Socratics
What translation the the Iliad should I read?
Richard Lattimore
Thank you!
Wilson
Certainly more exciting, but the Iliad is not philosophy.
It is the moral backbone to the Hellenes of antiquity and is frequently cited by Plato the way a Christian would cite the Bible. It is absolutely philosophy.
Kek, no. It is most certainly not, and no Plato does not cite it the way a Christian would cite the Bible. Plato also cites many other things besides Homer.
>Socrates’ entire rant on how Homer shaped philosophy in the Republic
>Socrates citing modesty is not good for a needy man in Charmides
You are simply wrong.
No, I'm not.
Yes, you are.
You're pathetically clinging this hard to your shallow comparisons. Why is it so important for you that the Iliad be compared to the Bible when it just simply doesn't equate? Strange and strange.
It's not shallow.
It is a useful comparison.
Because it's a true comparison.
Yeah, whatever kid. You're shallow, incorrect, and, worse, boring.
Whatever.
Read "the homeric gods by otto"
He explains how the homeric age was fundational to the hellenic mind, which we could compare it to the biblical age, and the effect and importance of the bible to the western mind.
Of course he does. Academics are always trying to draw parallels to Christ and the Bible. They NEED it, for the sake of their sensibilities. They're still wrong.
moron
Homer was literally the bible for greeks.
Why do you think that they did an entire epic cycle, about homeric stories and characters then?
It's clear that the illiad, and the odyssey was their Bible.
You are as moronic as op.
Stop being mean to me.
It was not their Bible. Enough with these shallow comparisons. They were obsessed with it for far more simple reasons. The events of the Trojan war were widely written about in antiquity. You're pretentious and shallow.
It is their Bible.
You are just denying it for some reason.
That reason is because you're wrong. KEK. Neither is it philosophy.
So should I read the Iliad or not?
Yes, read it. Just do not mistake it for philosophy or a "Greek Bible."
Of course I have. Being foundational doesn't make the Iliad the Bible of ancient Greece.
Have you even read about homer?
You see how much important of a foundational figure was he, to the hellenic mind, it quite literally was their Bible.
Just remember that Socrates was a sorcerer and Plato a mystic. There's an esoteric reading to Plato that will be more fulfilling than the typical and dull historic reading they do in colleges.
wasn't socrates just plato's fursona or something?
No, Socrates actually existed, the whole "he was invented by plato" is a historical myth:
https://donaldrobertson.name/2018/04/29/was-socrates-a-real-person-and-other-questions/
why do we always say plato meant this, and plato explained that in his dialogs, when in the first place those dialogs were not even his own and he just transcribed them?
Read what i put in my previous post.
It answers some historical questions about why and how Plato and Socrates fame came to be.
Other writers like Aristotle, Xenophon, Aristophanes, and more mention Socrates as well. It's basically impossible that there wasn't a philosopher sperg named Socrates in Athens, unless you believe in an insane conspiracy between most of the Athenian elite to invent a fictitious philosopher and have none come out and admit it.
What if all the aforesaid philosophers were the same man writing different treatises and comic plays under different names? There is no proof that isn’t the case and it is as likely as any other speculation on Socrates’ existence.
By that logic you should discount 99% of Ancient history.
So basically....
Bye bye, ceasar, nero, hero of alexandria, ptolemy, Alexander(yes, him as well), vercingotorix.... Etc...
Your logic is a stupid one.
So read this:
https://donaldrobertson.name/2018/04/29/was-socrates-a-real-person-and-other-questions/
It should answer all the questions you have about Socrates, and prove we have enough evidence he existed, and if you still deny it after reading this, then, you have to discount 99% of the other ancient history alongside Socrates, so i hope you enjoy doing that.
>Aristotle is a much more boring writer than Plato
>All of philosophy after Plato is inherently more boring if Plato already counts as boring
None of this is true. The “Plato castles philosophy” meme is merely a reflection of his tradition’s inherent elitism.
Descartes’s Meditations and the Appendix to Part 4 of Spinoza’s Ethics.
>Descartes’s Meditations and the Appendix to Part 4 of Spinoza’s Ethics.
My backlog of books is too large right now, but I will write this down and read them in the future. Should I read the Essays by Montaigne?
>Plato castles philosophy meme
I don't know what that even means. It's not elitist, frankly I've had very good luck with people finding lots of simple philosophy enjoyable, so it's really easy to recommend next steps. Finding Plato boring though? Never seen that before and thought "This person will enjoy philosophy," it just feels like a sign of disinterest. Though OP says maybe it's just that they're tired, so "boring" probably wasn't a good word to use.
>Descartes
Descartes' Meditations is enjoyable on a par with Plato. I would say so is Berkeley. However, if someone genuinely doesn't find Plato enjoyable I wouldn't think the other picks are easier to enjoy, sadly. This isn't elitism. This is just a fact about how Plato is typically recognized as relatively accessible, and due to being literary enough, tends to be seen as more enjoyable, than much of other philosophy. Some of Plato's works like the second half of the Parmenides are clearly not easy or enjoyable, so this also only applies to some of the simpler dialogues.
>Descartes’s Meditations and the Appendix to Part 4 of Spinoza’s Ethics.
Not OP. I am reading both these now. Very good.
The remedy to Plato. Prepare for science like you’ve never seen. His Metaphysics and Politics are his crowning works, and reading his Poetics along with the Greek dramatists may allow you to reconsider how you view Greek culture altogether. Still, for an engaging response to Plato, Metaphysics is the way to go.
It's not an engaging response for someone who has read that little Plato...
What is the best translation of Aristotle’s Metaphysics?
Do some fricking research lazy ass. Fricking pseuds...
>pseuds
You're using that word wrong.
Anon, this thread is his research.
You know, I suppose you are right. It is just inefficient.
Aristotle is autism incarnate.
What the Buddha Taught
what have you read of plato?
Euthyphro, Apology, Crito, and Phaedo — I just bought the Hackett Complete Works and started reading it in order. I’m sorry that I suck.
You DO suck, but if you've read that much you need to read Republic before you quit. What's the point of reading any Plato at all if you don't read his greatest work? You'll always be someone who has "never read Plato."
Have to concur with some of the other anons here. If those works bored you then you are going to have a bad time reading Aristotle, Hobbes, Kant, etc. I would suggest maybe to take a break for a week or so and come back to those dialogues to see if they’ve improved to you. Also read Gorgias before Republic.
I realized earlier that I just needed a break, and now I’m enjoying this again.
dabble a bit in a little Descartes, a little Spinoza and a little Uncle Ted
Where do I start with Descartes and Spinoza?
I read uncle Ted’s manifesto and thoroughly enjoyed it. I plan on reading Technological Slavery sometime in the future.
moron
Filtered by Plato.
LOL.
I’m the one who was filtered by Plato, not him.
Ok Light.
Hey, didn't ryuk kill you?
Why are you still here, then?
I’m the kitty.
Lol.
This is not the 2000's anymore to post kitty pictures dude.
>This is not the 2000's anymore to post kitty pictures dude.
>t. Dog
Ok, tom.
Hey, dude where's jerry?
I dont see him here.
Let me find out.
Lol.
I didn't know you had one of those.
I mean what's behind you, not the phone.
If you're bored by Plato, philosophy is not for you. All of philosophy after Plato is inherently more boring if Plato already counts as boring. Philosophy is for people who are capable of finding it enjoyable. Even people who love Plato often won't enjoy most other philosophy. So if Plato is boring for you, this isn't your thing.
It’s not that Plato isn’t interesting, I just think I need to diversify my reading a little more. I’m just a little tired.
Plato was an idiot, who tried to put his own mind as the standard of humanity, frick plato.
You're bored because you haven't learned to think yet. It takes practice, unironically.
Hume's Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding
https://davidhume.org/texts/e/full
>but I’m too bored reading Plato
Pick up a better translation, then. Jowett's are the best.
*meant to say Thomas Taylor
Sorry I'm moronic
To be clear, you weren't bored by the Greeks, you were bored by Plato's dialogues. If you tell us why you found them boring, maybe we can help you. What sort of books/ ideas do you enjoy?
You should try killing yourself and saving us the trouble of reading your abhorrent posts.
Why are you so angry?
Because if you can’t handle four Platonic dialogues then literature isn’t for you. Plato is the easiest, basic shit for beginners. It is like being filtered by the Bible.
Another moron
philosophy attracts spergs who self-insert as their favorite philosopher, therefore any attack on their philosophy is personal
Read herodotus then.
It's clear that you are a baby, that's prefers moronic fables of giant golden digger marmots, and griffins than any serious philosophical work.
You are a moron and you get the low of the low, go read herodotus and enjoy your moronic baby crappy desision.
Stop being mean to me.
I would recommend The Great Courses class on the Platonic Dialogues. You should be able to find it on torrent or it isn't that pricey from Audible, or Wonderium has trials. The context there might help you get more out of them.
They also have a really good course called Mind Body Philosophy, which is quite interesting.
Thank you. Will do.
David Hume. Hes a very good writer and grapples with interesting questions.
Now I’m reading Cratylus and I’m actually thoroughly enjoying myself.
Every day hundreds of millions prove him right again and again
Right about what?
>I'm too bored
Nagarjuna, he completely destroys philosophy
You have all been extraordinarily helpful, thank you all very much. I will follow your advice.
Here's a good site for primary sources:
https://www.earlymoderntexts.com/
eastern philosophy is a little more interesting albeit esoteric. I still think the greeks made better points, especially as it pertains to a life within a civilized society, but eastern philosophy has some things to say about the life within ones self that is worth chewing on too.
The easy created philosophies and religions that escape into the self because their societies always sucked so bad. Basically it's a cope because of their shitty living conditions. At least they were intelligent enough to write interesting spiritual texts unlike Africans.
Really just depends on what interests you or grabs your attention. Currently I am reading Confucius (The Analects). He advocates for a life of strict devotion to rituals, honoring your parents, and order above all else.
Another option if you want something different from Plato, you may be interested in reading Sextus Empiricus one of the ancient skeptics. He argued for the impossibility of real knowledge, instead favoring equipose; where one neither affirms nor denies the truth of any dogmatic belief.
You could also fast forward to Enlightenment thinkers or modern philosophy
Start with Descartes' Meditations. It's quite short and self-contained. It's also the basis for the rest of Modern Philosophy.
After that you can read encyclopedia (Standford, etc.) articles on Locke and Leibniz. Both have interesting ideas but Leibniz lacks a magnum opus and Locke tends to get autistic and diffuse so it's better to read them in secondary sources.
Then there's Hume's 'An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding' which is quite a fast read and to the point.
If you are serious about philosophy or self-cultivation your goal should be to read Kant's 'Critique of Pure Reason' (but you'll need the above prerequisites to understand it). This is highest masterpiece of philosophy.
Schopenhauer is also worth reading as he vulgarizes and elaborates on Kantian ideas. His essays are great too.
You might also want to return to the Ancients at some point and read a book or articles on the Presocratics (to understand how philosophy started, how early ideas evolved) and the most important parts of Aristotle like his Ethics, the first book of the Physics (where he summarizes and reinterprets his predecessors), some of his Metaphysics and summaries of the rest of his books (especially his Logic and Psychology). Aristotle's writing style is bad but his insights are very important so he shouldn't be ignored.
Hegel and contemporary philosophers are moronic so you can skip those.
Also I disagree with those who say that if you find Plato boring the rest of philosophy will also seem boring to you. Early modern philosophy starting with Descartes is very different in character and might be enjoyed even if you think that, say, Plato speculates too much at random and without proper basis. In fact much of its point is addressing such issues.
Start with the Enlightenment and then read the Greeks later if you're interested in them. They did influence everything, but they aren't necessary to understand contemporary philosophy.
Here's a fun trick. Whenever you read Plato and start to get bored, just imagine some crazy smelly hobo guy named Diogenes, crashing the class with a plucked chicken and taking a dump in the middle of the class.
interesting, i’m pretty sure Nietzsche said he found Plato boring as well28sf
Heraclitus