If god is justice then why do we have pay for these frickers' mistake?

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  1. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Stop talking about schizophrenic messianic prophecies from the levant. Evolution and fossil records already refuted Christianity kys.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      God isn't justice. Justice is one of His attributes, but it is nowhere said in the scriptures that God is justice like how it says He is love.

      Theistic evolution is possible, and the days of creation weren't always understood to be literal days.

      Because a human named Augustine said so and also a human named Paul needed a necessary cause for his wacky Atonement Theology.

      The atonement was predicted in the Old Testament long before Paul was born, and the non-Pauline texts of the New Testament also affirm the atonement,

      • 3 weeks ago
        Anonymous

        >Theistic evolution is possible
        Oh yes, it's all a 'metaphor' bro. Humanity who descended from apes who descended from fish and so on somehow broke the 'Original Commandment' and created Original Sin...

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          No one said it's all a metaphor. You just have to discern where the text can be read symbolically and where it cannot. For the Christian faith as we understand it today to have any legs to stand on, it must literally believe that Jesus rose from the dead and that the hope of a Christian is that he or she may be resurrected in a similar manner as Jesus for instance, and there's no ambiguity in the New Testament on this which allows for an alternative reading. One thing that filters a lot of people is that the israelites had a particular knack for assigning numerical values to things (what we would today call gematria).

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >No one said it's all a metaphor.
            Original sin just doesn't make any amount of sense under the purview of evolution. How could the world have fallen if death, decay, and suffering were apart of this World by design, and not at some arbitrary point around mankind's arrival on Gaia?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Death came to mankind through the fall, there is no mention of the fall causing death to animals.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Our ape-like ancestors were already mortal. The first humans were already mortal from birth.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            This is a load of shit. If whatever species attained the spiritual maturity to conquer death through some kind of kabbalistic evolutionary process (which I'm sure is anachronistic to most Christian teachings) to become the first ever man, then how could they fall? If you believe that humanity was *intrinsically* flawed from the get-go, then how could you believe in original sin?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >If whatever species attained the spiritual maturity to conquer death through some kind of kabbalistic evolutionary process (which I'm sure is anachronistic to most Christian teachings)
            I don't think this is what I or anyone said at all.

            >If you believe that humanity was *intrinsically* flawed from the get-go, then how could you believe in original sin?
            Sufficient to stand, free to fall. Would you rather have a relationship with a waifubot or a real woman?

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >I don't think this is what I or anyone said at all.
            Right, I only presumed you had some kind of logical explanation for the order of events of the creation of the World, but I guess you're just going to hide your head in the sand and pretend that you believe in evolution while asserting humanity sprouted from nowhere.
            >Sufficient to stand, free to fall. Would you rather have a relationship with a waifubot or a real woman?
            I'm saying that original sin doesn't make sense if you can easily blame Adam & Eve's genetics for their fall. 'Original sin' necessarily implies an origin after all.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You just ran into the problem of moral vs natural evil. Animals in the past could still die. Remember, in Genesis Adam is the last creature created. Yet it states that animals eat grass and whatnot, which you could prescribe as “evil” because that is destroying the grass. Alas, this is the way of life. God made it that way for some higher glory that would come about from it, aka the allowing of life. Man coming on these scene is him giving us consciousness. We are actually aware of reality and comprehend the world around us. God reveals himself so to speak. We decide to fall from god after his revelation by sinning for the first time by “eating” that fruit of knowledge that is forbidden. That knowledge of god, consciousness, and sin still exists in all men because of the human condition that was revealed to us, and we created.

            https://i.imgur.com/6QJMDI2.jpeg

            To answer the original question, imagine your father made millions in industry, only to lose the money to prostitutes, coke, and a lavish lifestyle. You as the child do not gain any of the fruits of that industry, as your father was not deserving of it clearly. It’s the same with sin. God gave Adam a gift that was not earned of clearly deserved. Because of his mercy however, you DO have the chance to gain it back. It’s up to you now. If you bite from the apple you are just as bad as Adam. Your daily sins are proof of this. His justice is allowing to show your worthiness and not just him saying “well humans fricked up frick them”.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            >Animals in the past could still die.
            Why did God create animals like that? It would have cost him literally nothing to make animals immortal.
            >destroying the grass. Alas, this is the way of life. God made it that way for some higher glory that would come about from it, aka the allowing of life.
            Why did God make it like that? It sometimes seems to me that Christians don't take God's supposed omnipotence very seriously. You see things in this physical world, like the fact that animals require grass to eat, other animals have to eat meat but I can easily imagine a world where that's not the case and nothing of value would be lost. God would be able to create a world with 5 spatial dimensions where time flows backwards and creatures eat hydrogen, he is not limited in the slightest by our current biology. Instead he created a world where some animals evolved to be parasites and lay eggs in their victims, which then hatch and the larvae eat the victim from within. The parasite didn't choose to be like that, God created them. Suffering is not just a thing that sometimes happens, it's embedded into the very process by which life evolves, this is also known as the problem of evolutionary evil.

            Also I just don't share 2 important moral intuitions about the analogy to a human millionaire. I would give the son a million dollars if I had unlimited resources, I really don't see why not. Also maybe God doesn't owe me anything, but I only see this as an argument if the Christian view was that sinners just die, an eternal sleep, instead sinners are born without their consent and are then condemned to suffer eternally in hell.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I'm reading Paradise Lost right now, and a lot of what you're talking about is actually explained in that. I realize it's not actually part of the religious canon, but still. Milton talks about how in the garden humanity existed in harmony with not just all other animals, but all of nature. Everything was soft, and pleasant and temperate and there was no suffering at all. After Adam and Eve eat the fruit from the forbidden tree suddenly foul weather appears and bushes grow thorns, and animals take on the ability to bite and sting humanity. That evolutionary evil you talk about is described as being a direct result of humanity choosing evil.

            Now, I should say that obviously that isn't literally true. Those types of animals already existed like that. Your problem, ironically is precisely the same as the issue you seem to have with the people who believe this stuff: You're both taking it too literally. Obviously humanity is not all descended from just 2 people. Obviously parasites don't exist specifically because someone took a bite out of an apple they weren't supposed to eat. Ultimately the story is about free will. It's a parable from ancient man trying to rationalize, conceptualize and reconcile why the world is the way it is, and why we are the way we are, while also giving us an ability to improve it.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            I have no problem with seeing it as a parable, I think this anon

            NTA, but personally I read the fall of man for eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as a story about humanity gaining consciousness. When humanity was dumb and animalistic it existed on the same level as all other baser animals. In the same way a dog can be perfectly happy just having food and rest humans were once the same and existed in that kind of dumb animalistic bliss. Eating from the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was the step we took in rising above that (but falling existentially) and gained conciseness, self-awareness. We were superior to all other forms of life in our cognition, but also fallen from that state of animal bliss. We were not just capable of suffering, as all animals are, we were capable of understand our own suffering, of understanding our own mortality. We were capable of questioning why we exist in the first place, we didn't just experience pain and suffering, we could think about it. Why is it happening? why is the world like this? why is existence pain? This also gave us something else - the ability to chose to be kind. To help others, to not chose to cause suffering to others. Animals simply exist and act on instinct. They're not really good or evil, everything they do is morally neutral. The rise of sapience gave us, quite literally, a knowledge of good an evil, and the ability to pick between them.

            As far as original sin goes I think it's fairly obvious. We are all human, and as humans we are imperfect. As humans even the best of us will sin at some point. It's a given, it's inherent to our nature. That's original sin. The fact that we human and by virtue of being human are imperfect.

            I should note, I'm not particularly religious, nor do I follow any one Christian faith. Real Christians may take issue with that interpretation, it's just my 2 cents.

            (or maybe that was also you?) has the most logical interpretation of the story.
            I think my biggest problem is that it's used as a reason for why people supposedly go to hell and why Jesus had to be born, 2 things that the story was originally probably not even intended to do.
            Hell is a very real consequence, it's supposedly not just a metaphor it's a real experience and a psychological or metaphorical reading of Genesis just doesn't seem to cut it in my view for such an extreme consequence.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Both of those posts were indeed me. I'll go back to Paradise Lost since this issue is directly addressed in that. Before humanity even falls, God explains that he already knows that Adam and Eve will violate his only prohibition he's given them and eat from the forbidden tree. He knows this, because he is omniscient. This gets into the question of free will vs determinism which is also addressed. God basically says that it's not wrong for him to punish man because even though he created man knowing he would chose sin, he also created man with free will, and the decision to chose to sin was man's alone. If man chose differently, he would know differently. It's therefore not God's fault for needing to punish us, or for creating us in the first place, it's our fault for choosing evil and necessitating punishment.

            Jesus at this point who is God's son, and endowed with all of God's power, (but seemingly consciously separate from God which I admit is confusing and weird) says that in order to save humanity he will step in and accept mankind's punishment in his stead. This thereby gives humanity the ability to ultimately redeem themselves and one day re-join God in his kingdom.

            This is kind of explained later in the book as almost a debt thing. Just because God releases humanity from punishment of non-payment for debt doesn't mean that the payment isn't still due. So Jesus agrees to at a later date go down to earth as a human, to suffer and die as punishment for mankind's sin in the garden and as long as people recognize Jesus as their savoir, recognize that he took humanity's punishment so that we didn't have to, then all is forgiven and they can rejoin the kingdom of Heaven. This is the entire gestalt of Christianity, that humanity is evil and will sin, but that Jesus Christ can accept the punishment for that sin in our place and we can all still be saved. While it is a bit confusing it ultimately does tie the original story together.

            I'll say again, I don't consider myself religious and I have not read the bible. My knowledge of this comes more from the epic poem written about the story rather than the primary text itself.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Me again, a couple things I want to expand on. Firstly, I think it's worth pointing out that the entire conversation between God and Jesus happens, iirc, before he even creates mankind. So in a sense, he created us knowing that we would be doomed, but also knowing that we COULD be saved. This goes back to my earlier point. It's a story that is about free will, a story about the greater eternal struggle between good and evil. It's a story about reconciling human nature. It's trying to explain why we are the way we are, and offer an alternative: to be better, to choose good. To choose not to sin.

            The second thing I want to mention is that while Jesus is accepting God's punishment specifically for Adam and Eve eating the apple, I think even within a strict religious reading of the biblical story, it should be obvious that the apple is just a metaphor for all of humanities sins. That is what Jesus is really taking punishment for, both in the story of Paradise Lost, and in greater Christian religious tradition.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            You’re jumping the gun when it comes to “god could make it not so”. This has essentially turned away from original sin, and now you’re talking about the problem of evil. Evil exists because the lord clearly sees some greater glory in allowing it to exist. Could the lord make the world different? Yes. But you use assume that you know better. Who is to say that god could create a greater glory than exists? Perhaps we do indeed live in the world that will come into fruition to be “the best”. You can’t make that judgement anon. No man can. This is where faith is involved. We are simply men, we can not compete with a divine creature, if he says this is the best way to make a beautiful future, who are we to deny it? You can see the beauty in the struggle all around you. The tapestry of life is gorgeous, and a world with free will and the ability for natural conflict has created a wonderful story that could not possibly exist without our struggles. You also have to ask if existence truly is suffering for animals? Animals seem to be in permanent ecstasy and bliss when not directly in pain. Their understanding of the world is free of anxiety, depression, etc. They simply experience that which is, and when not directly in horrible pain, existence is wonderful. Terrible pain also creates the dichotomy for unconditional joy. Once again we circle back to you thinking you know better than god. It isn’t clear that the world in fact would be better if there were 5 dimensions and we ate hydrogen. We were also made in the lords image, so consider that perhaps he created reality for us in our state.

            As for the human millionaire thing, perhaps you would but Adam did not. Adam was the millionaire in this scenario not god. God not owing us anything more than we get is because we have the free will to choose him. He already gave us our wonderful world, reason, and all the gifts we could need to want him and seek him out. We decided to squander that by betraying his perfectly moral nature by sinning. Why is his nature that way? I have no idea, no one does, but it is what it is. He knows better, and he is perfection. I am no one to argue. Sinners being condemned to hell isn’t by gods choice per se. He makes it very clear he does not want you to be in hell. He truly doesn’t and makes that clear throughout the Bible. I mean he came down as man to save us from it. Hell is the absence of gods presence. That’s the most horrible part of hell. It’s simply a place where god and the Holy Spirit can not touch. It’s like being eternally alone, with no spark of happiness, and nothing but your own reason telling you that you fricked by sinning and not taking religion seriously. You chose that fate. God is perfect, therefore he can not associate with that which is imperfect. Sinners being born into this world against their will assumes they wouldn’t want to be born, and that reality is horrible. People are made by parents, the soul by god.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            Sorry for my grammatical errors. I’m a phone gay at the moment.

          • 3 weeks ago
            Anonymous

            NTA, but personally I read the fall of man for eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as a story about humanity gaining consciousness. When humanity was dumb and animalistic it existed on the same level as all other baser animals. In the same way a dog can be perfectly happy just having food and rest humans were once the same and existed in that kind of dumb animalistic bliss. Eating from the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was the step we took in rising above that (but falling existentially) and gained conciseness, self-awareness. We were superior to all other forms of life in our cognition, but also fallen from that state of animal bliss. We were not just capable of suffering, as all animals are, we were capable of understand our own suffering, of understanding our own mortality. We were capable of questioning why we exist in the first place, we didn't just experience pain and suffering, we could think about it. Why is it happening? why is the world like this? why is existence pain? This also gave us something else - the ability to chose to be kind. To help others, to not chose to cause suffering to others. Animals simply exist and act on instinct. They're not really good or evil, everything they do is morally neutral. The rise of sapience gave us, quite literally, a knowledge of good an evil, and the ability to pick between them.

            As far as original sin goes I think it's fairly obvious. We are all human, and as humans we are imperfect. As humans even the best of us will sin at some point. It's a given, it's inherent to our nature. That's original sin. The fact that we human and by virtue of being human are imperfect.

            I should note, I'm not particularly religious, nor do I follow any one Christian faith. Real Christians may take issue with that interpretation, it's just my 2 cents.

        • 3 weeks ago
          Anonymous

          Thinking human consciousness somehow evolved piecemeal in the savannah is one of the top most absurd claims of consensus science.

  2. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Because a human named Augustine said so and also a human named Paul needed a necessary cause for his wacky Atonement Theology.

  3. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    If you think creation myths are to be taken literally you're fricking moronic and never should have been taught to read in the first place. I made almost this exact post like a week ago.
    >Why am I being punished for Adam's sin?
    Because you are Adam.
    >But I didn't eat the apple!
    But you would have. And even now, you choose to eat the apple every day.

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >If you think creation myths are to be taken literally you're fricking moronic and never should have been taught to read in the first place
      The vast majority of Muslims and a majority of Christians take them literally

  4. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    Because Eve was thicc as hell.

  5. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    We are them, essentially.

  6. 3 weeks ago
    Anonymous

    If god is loving why judgement is one his qualities?

    • 3 weeks ago
      Anonymous

      >Everything good comes from skydaddy
      >Justice is le good
      >Therefore god is justice

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