If I create the conditions for evil to happen like throwing a brick from a skyscraper and letting the laws of gravity kill someone, I am blamed and imprisoned.
If God creates the conditions for evil to happen like putting a talking snake, a forbidden tree leading to the fall of man and the appearance of sin suddenly he is innocent
Why?
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Are you guilty for having a child that will grow up to become a serial killer, even though you never taught them that killing is good, because you created the conditions for evil to happen?
Yeah except God created killing, could have made a universe without it, easy.
Killing is not inherently immoral, otherwise God wouldn't have given man dominion over all creatures to do with them as he pleased.
Are you a vegan or something?
Oh, man did you see that movie Noah were they are all vegans? Killing is destroying God's creations anon.
Is this some kind of canned response they hand out at sunday school?
No? It's a perfectly simple and rational rebuttal.
Answer it.
I did, already.
And I already answered your reply.
So the issue is settled.
Yeah you offered, killing as an example of doing something bad, and then said it wasn't bad, brilliant.
Killing isn't necessarily bad. Murder is.
You understand the difference between killing and murder, right?
Why is this argument so convincing for you people? I'm assuming you ar4e Christian? It says dont kill.
Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.
>Why is this argument so convincing for you people? I'm assuming you ar4e Christian? It says dont kill.
The 10 commandments forbid murder, not killing. We know this because there are several instances in the scriptures in which God grants the authority to kill other human beings to specific people in specific contexts.
>Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.
Yes, this is murder.
Oh I see, so if you kill without shedding blood you arent a killer. Like strangulation or something. But if you are a soldier and shoot someone that is murder, because its bloodshed.
>Oh I see, so if you kill without shedding blood you arent a killer.
....................no?
Oh right, so we are back to killing of any kind is a sin? If murder is shedding blood which includes all ways of dying then killing is always murder.
Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.
Lmao you define it as murder but there's no difference between murder and killing in this case. Not even the bible defines it as murder just as bloodshed which you can then redefine as it fits your whims
Do you think serial killers come from nothing? It's no secret every serial killer had a fricked up childhood.
No that isn't actually true and also wasn't the point of the thought experiment you moron linear tier brain Black person
>People with perfect childhoods woke up and decided to murder groups of people
Is this the same magical thinking behind talking snakes?
Your thought experiment is shit. Childhood upbringing is a correlative factor in crime.
But when you have a child, you don't know what they might possibly do. It's not something you can claim responsibility for, because you can't fully know what kind of person they'll be. But when God created Satan, he positively knew it would ultimately result in thousands of serial killers.
Again, knowledge is irrelevant, intention is.
Doesn't mean that God intended for the coin to fall on one head or the other.
>god is not the cause of all things
>Doesn't mean that God intended for the coin to fall on one head or the other.
So God just does things without intending to do them? Why?
He does, He intended for mankind to be pure.
>He intended mankind to be pure while creating all the necessary conditions for manking to become impure
KEKAROOOO
He created all the conditions necessary for mankind to remain pure, or that if man were to fall into sin, he would be able to regain its puriy.
Why didn't he create us pure then? He knew the humanity that he created wasn't pure; is god that dumb?
>Why didn't he create us pure then?
He did, it was on us to remain pure.
You people love to waste your time on this shit. It's not real, it's literally mythology. It's made up.
You don't even believe that.
Wait so pire humans are capable of being impure? How does that work? Also god still failed by making a humanity that so easily falls; is god that ignorant? If you make an unbreakable vase that breaks you have failed; the more you try to defend god the more flawed you make it
Human beings were sinless, but that doesn't mean that they were perfect, only God is perfect.
nobody is talking about perfect humans you moronic homosexual
Humans are literally just monkeys. Before your god was even a thing our ancestors murdered and cannibalized each other.
Where this pure and sinless humanity even come from if there's absolutely nothing indicating that it was ever the case?
You are guilty if you know in advance that the child will become a serial killer. For instance, if the Bundys had supernatural powers and could see into the future but then had Ted anyway, they would indeed be guilty.
trvth nvke
Because the angels thought they would glorify God's creation by mixing the divine with the earthly to create a new thing which the world had never seen. But we fricked up with the power to choose and so evil entered the world. It was, of course, the fault of the father of sin for believing in us in the first place.
This is like saying you will go to prison if you create a baby and he grows up to murder someone. Don't be moronic with false equivalencies.
This is a false equivalency since god would have perfect knowledge of the consequences of his actions, unlike a human.
Having perfect knowledge is irrelevant to the argument. Since like a human doesn't have a child with the intention of them becoming a murderer, neither did God create man with the intention of being a murderer, and He constantly forbids man from doing so.
>he didnt create man with the intention of being a murderer despite knowing murderers will be created due to his omniscience
kek
There is no contradiction here, like scientists creating certain technology, but not with the intention of them being created to harm people. You seem to be incapable of understanding intention.
>a scientist without omniscience that doesnt understand the full ramifications of his technology is equivalent to god who has omniscience and knows the exact people who will become murderers before they're even born
lmfao
Omnisicence is irrelevant to intention. And I'm pretty sure that scientists are perfectly aware that whatever they create it will be eventually misused.
You are again comparing god to humans; you are taking away agency from god
>You are again comparing god to humans;
Humans were made in the image of God.
Irrelevant: is a human perfectly knowledgeable of all the consequences of his actions and omnipotent? No, so stop pretending it is a valid comparison
I've already demonstrated to you that omniscience has nothing to do with this, the important matter is intention, and God never intended mankind to be sinful. You would have an argument if God created man with sin and then punished him for being sinful, but He didnt'.
>comparison
You haven't demonstrated anything like that. If someone sets up a system knowing the consequences they are resposible for those consequences
>If someone sets up a system knowing the consequences they are resposible for those consequences
So are you responsible for having a son that will eventually grow up to become a serial killer and murder dozens of people?
Does he have full knowledge of the fact that his son will become a serial killer as well as the omnipotence to negate that event entirely?
>Does he have full knowledge of the fact that his son will become a serial killer as well as the omnipotence to negate that event entirely?
Does it matter?
>Looks like we are back at comparing god to humans huh?
Again, man was created in the image of God.
>Also why avoid
Meaningless bubble; is god not aware of everything that will be in the universe since the moment of creation or not? Yes or no?
Because I already demonstrated that knowledge is irrelevant.
>Does it matter?
Yes?
Rhetorical question, the answer is no.
How can a father be held responsible if he has neither the knowledge to know in advance nor the power to do otherwise?
I know right? Mabye your position is wrong.
My position is that god is responsible because god has both the knowledge to know in advance as well as the power to do otherwise.
>Again, man was created in the image of God.
Is god flawed like man then? Because that is where you are going now
>Because I already demonstrated that knowledge is irrelevant.
You haven't done anything like that
Knowledge isn't strictly necessary to condemn someone of a crime; carelessnes is enought but knowledge is evem worse; if someone does something with knowledge of the consequences they have no way of denying responsability
Well then all parents should be held accountable for everything their adult children do, since they know for a fact that there are good chances that their children will to evil things.
>since they know for a fact that there are good chances that their children will to evil things.
So they don't actually know know
Also you keep comparing god to human situations; from now on any such exaples will be ignored as they are irrelevant
I'm showing you that knowledge is a terrible metric for determining responsibily.
>You don't even believe that.
Who are you to tell me what I do and don't believe?
Holy trips. The thread is over.
Christchads win again.
>I'm showing you that knowledge is a terrible metric for determining responsibily.
You still haven't though; if someone has knowledge of what they are doing they are not only responsible but they had intent it heir actions; you can ivoke a lack of knowledge
>knowledge is a terrible metric for determining responsibily.
That's literally how it works in the court of law...
Someone clearly hasn't heard of manslaughter.
So you acknowledge that knowledge is indeed a metric used to determine the degree of responsibility and severity of the charge in the court of law?
Manslaughter is specifically determined not by knowledge but intention.
How can one knowingly kill someone without intention? A lack of intention implies a lack of knowledge.
I didn't say that that there was no knowledge, just that it wasn't the determining factor. The determining factor is intention. You can get on you car with the knoweldge that you could run someone over and kill them, but I doubt that you drive with that intention in mind.
>A lack of intention implies a lack of knowledge.
Kek absolutely not.
Describe one single scenario where a person knowingly kills someone without intention.
An accident.
An accident happens unknowingly amd unintentially. Try again.
>An accident happens unknowingly
Not unknowingly, no. Unless you're a literal child. If you get on a car you know (or at least you're supposed to know) full well the risks and dangers that are present.
Knowing that your actions could kill someone /= knowing that your actions will kill someone
Try again.
>Knowing that your actions could kill someone /= knowing that your actions will kill someone
Yes that's my entire point, idiot. Knowledge and intention are two different things.
refer to
I already showed you that accidents don't happen unknowingly.
No you didn't. refer to
>god accientally creates a fallen world
Lmao what?
Looks like we are back at comparing god to humans huh? Also why avoid
?
he did create man with sin by creating all the conditions for man to fall and start sinning fully knowing all that will happen and being fully capable of not doing it
>he did create man with sin-
Wrong.
>Do not say, "Because of the LORD I left the right way"; for He will not do what He hates. Do not say, "It was He who led me astray"; for He had no need of a sinful man. The LORD hates every abomination, and they are not loved by those who fear Him. It was He who created mankind in the beginning, and He left him in the power of his own choice. If you desire, you will keep the commandments, and to act faithfully is a matter of choice. He has placed before you fire and water: stretch out your hand for whichever you wish. Life and death are in front of people, and whichever one chooses will be given to him. For great is the wisdom of the LORD; He is mighty in power and sees everything; His eyes are on those who fear Him, and He knows a person's every deed. He has not commanded anyone to be ungodly, and He has not given anyone permission to sin.
Wisdom of Sirach 15:11-20
when you stop to consider that the part of us which provides our ability to do evil is just ultimately an emanation from God but in the flesh then you realize that because we create disharmony between ourselves and a perfectly good God we were unable to ever rejoin as one. Thus the need for the Christ to cleanse us by way of God taking the blame for all our failings. We pollute God when we return but God loves us so he was willing to pay the ultimate price of despoiling perfection for our sake.
It absolutely is because coupled with god creating the universe, it means everything is willingly caused the way it is; you can't avoid the responsability of god unless you take away power. It's like saying someone isn't guilty of killing people because the explosion they caused actually did it
this is exactly it, I'm starting to feel christians are just israelites without the IQ. They use the exact same pilpul strategy but very clumsily due to their stupidity
>It absolutely is because coupled with god creating the universe, it means everything is willingly caused the way it is
No it isn't, precognition is not predestination. If I flip a coin, I know it's bound to fall either heads or tails, but that doesn't mean I intentionally made it so that it will fall in ether face of the coin.
>No it isn't, precognition is not predestination
It's virtually indistiguishable; the moment the universe was created god knew everything that would play out; it's a distiction without dufference
>It's virtually indistiguishable
It isn't. The coin example proves this.
Killing is the ending of a life.
Murder is unlawful killing.
Do you get it yet?
>t isn't. The coin example proves this.
Meaningless bubble; is god not aware of everything that will be in the universe since the moment of creation or not? Yes or no
Well fist of all the bible does not provide that definition of murder, so you and whatever church just made that up, and second of all there is no distinction between killing and murder in the bible as anyone who sheds blood is a killer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_kill
I got one for you too
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_pacifism
LOL. god knows in advance which side the coin will land on.
Christians are like
>Well you know killing is good sometimes, besides removing killing would impede your free will
Oh yeah? Then why didnt god also give me a power to delete everyone I dont like from existence? I want to do it and it impedes my free will. There are things he didnt add to this reality that I want to do and yet that doesnt impede my free will?
>>Well you know killing is good sometimes
Killing is a morally neutral act, the matter is if whether or not you have the authority to end a particular life.
>Oh yeah? Then why didnt god also give me a power to delete everyone I dont like from existence?
Because you're not God? And you don't have the right to do such a thing?
The point is god didnt add certain things to existence and yet that doesnt somehow doesnt stop my "free will" even though I want to do those things, with the same logic he could also remove other things like genetic diseases and cancer and it still wouldnt stop my "free will". Yet God didnt do this, curious
>my "free will"
Changing the subject, no one but you brought up free will.
>Killing is a morally neutral act
Comments like this from religious people are so wild, like they will use their faith to justify any action.
Is killing in war bad? Is killing in self-defense bad? Is killing animals for the sake of food bad? Why do you have such a simplistic understanding of these things?
>666
Nice try trying to weasel out with sophistry and trying to make killing a good thing, have you even read your bible?
free will is a godly power which muddies prescience when the watcher tries to foresee what the chooser will decide. It's almost like you guys have no oracular vision whatsoever or something.
Christians are like
>God is perfect, omnipotent, all loving, omniscient
>He intends for mankind to be pure
>His plan instantly gets foiled by himself by a talking snake also put by him along with a forbidden tree also added by him to the garden
Yep this is the height of christian apologetics
I think the best explanation for God's behavior is that he is sadistic and enjoys the suffering of humans and that includes all these seemingly bizarre moral contradictions.
I mean he did exterminate essentially the entire human population that one time. Gotta be sadistic to do some shit like that.
my head hurts from laughing at all this shit
Who the frick is insane enough to defend this mountain of stupidity in the current day and age? Are people so starved of copes that they have to twist in pretzels to defend an iron age religion?
>God creates Adam and Eve as pure humans in his image
>They fall instantly to the first obstacle that appears in their path
HAHAHAHA OH NO NO
>life is based on competition, death and suffering
>here's your benevolent creator I was talking you about
I legitimately can't comprehend how Christians think.
I dont think they're actually thinking. This thread is the best example. They're more like chatgpt bots programmed to defend their religion lest they be sent to the fiery lake of eternal torment. They dont care about consistency or any kind of honesty, they just jump from one fallacy to another to try to defend their inconsistencies
So god creates humans that know will fall 100% despite that going agoinst his objective; you are making this god look like a clown, he created flawed humans and he is respinsible for that
have fun winning this meaningless debate morons, you're still going to hell
>Go do hell for asking questions
Damn this is fricking brutal.
>y-you are going to magic lava land just you wait!
If Adam and Eve didn’t know right from wrong how were they supposed to know that eating from the tree was wrong?
>If I create the conditions for evil to happen like throwing a brick from a skyscraper and letting the laws of gravity kill someone, I am blamed and imprisoned.
No, it's the person who threw the brick that is imprisoned, not the landlord or whoever built the skyskraper. The person who built the skyskraper created the conditions for evil to happen as a possibility, but the guy who climbs there and drops a brick actually makes something evil happen.
The person who built the skyskraper created the conditions for evil to happen as a possibility, but the guy who climbs there and drops a brick actually makes something evil happen.
Why did you create this distinction? The brick actually made the evil happen by falling. Maybe even the person getting killed made the evil happen by being there
By what criteria do you decide who made the evil happen
You would be the most frustrating person to listen to in a courtroom.
He specifically forbade them from eating from the Tree. A father is not at fault for putting limits on his children and they disobeying those prohibitions.
Why did the father materialize a devil near his innocent children?
He didn't? Satan rebelled.
why did he let Satan in the garden
Doesn't matter, it doesn't excuse their disobedience. Imagine how great it would've been if Adam and Eve had remained faithful to God and refused to be tempted by Satan, he would've been driven out of the Garden in total humiliation and frustration.
>omnipotent deity aims to create pure sinless humans; proceeds to create things so that those humans will definetly disobey him; gets angry about his own doing
What is this circus? Am I supposed to really believe that such a baing would be this incapable of achieving what it sets out to do?
Were you beaten savagely as a child?
No, neither were Adam and Eve.
>He specifically forbade them from eating from the Tree.
Children disobey their parents all the time, Adam and Eve were created as naive, pure creatures with no understanding of right or wrong, even more they encountered a lying snake and were manipulated into eating the apple. They were not even capable of sin before consuming the apple, therefore they can be considered innocent for how they acted beforehand. Do you fault your children for being manipulated by older, more malicious forces seeking to corrupt them? Yes or No, that's the only answer I need from you.
>Children disobey their parents all the time-
And they were punished accordingly.
Oh, you're trolling.
Don't bother.
I'm dead serious.
Notice how he picks and chooses the irrelevant parts of your argument here
? Thats the christian apologetics in action
Holy shit guys, I just had an epiphany.
Wanting and acting to eat the apple isn't a sin because it occured through humans INCAPABLE of sin.
They dindu nuffin wrong.
NOO THAT DOESNT WORK LIKE THAT
Stop trying to rationalise the myths of illiterate desert israelites from 3000 years ago.
>but God *knew* that there will be evil down the line
you know too
if you continue your genetic lineage - some of your descendents will be rapists, some will be murderers, some will jerk off in theatre, you know for a fact that not 100% of them during 100% of their time will be 100% pure and innocent
God know which one of them and how exactly
You know that some of them and that it will occur *in some manner*
and either way, if you think he is responsible because He knew, then there is no free will and effectively He evil doesn't exist, because it is just one person pinching Himself and you are not real
> leave a loaded gun on the counter
> tell your child not to play with it while you go take a nap
> child picks up gun and accidentally blows their brains out while you sleep.
According to the Christcucks ITT it’s the child’s fault. The child was given free will to choose and they made their choice right? You can't make the argument that your God is all powerful and all knowing while making arguments that both limit his power or omnipotence. His universe, His design, His fault, period.
its even worse than that
you leave the loaded gun on the counter fully knowing that the child will blow his brains out
lmao
thank you. Serial killer type stuff that.
>his power or omnipotence. His universe, His design
one of which (His designs) is your free will
which He made with His power and omnipotence
He wrote the rulebook about how this is your fault, and the only court willing to see your case against Him - is His court
tough shit
don't rape people, it's not that hard
>don't rape people, it's not that hard
priests beg to differ HAHAHAHAHA
wow, you completely skirted around my example. Again thank you for proving my point in your coping argument that limits your God. So, according to you, free will is part of God's design but he also knows exactly who will go to heaven or not since he knows everything? That isn't free will that's premeditation. If he knows the man/woman in your example is going to rape someone and be damned for it why pretend that he would be surprised and/or disappointed? Why not use that universal power of his to make it so the conditions for that rape never occurred to begin with? Every argument you can make limits the power of your God and cannot defend his actions from a moral standpoint.
nah, it's you who is operating on faulty definitions
free will is not omnipotence
it's not either or between free will or determinism
you are not *free* to fly, or create worlds
you are not *free* for example to just choose in advance good answer for every question that is as of yet, not yet asked of you
you are free to choose between limited number of options
there are restrictions, pressures and dumb luck involved in all of this, sure
but this doesn't make your decisions "forced" upon you
Him knowing what choices you will make, does not negate the fact that you made them
if you for example, happen to become a serial killer - then it was not forced upon you
now
if there was absolutely 0% chance for you to become a serial killer
THAT would be a forced path progression
the fact that you can become serial killer is what makes this freedom
Him knowing that you would choose this path is not a sentence on you (not yet), it is rather something that allowed you - to become you
determinism would be if in this world there were no bad people, because God has weak stomach for this shit and forbid it
you would have not choice in the matter, it would be determined way above your paygrade
>but it's cruel that he made me, knowing that I'm a c**t and will suffer consequences of my c**tish actions
hey, at least you were free to wander this path.. and not outright "determined" to be a goodboy
and even if you were - you would complain then about no opportunity to choose, even if that choice can be bad one
bitches be b***hing
>people iit realizing abrahamism is pure bullshit
*laugh*