What am I in for, IQfy?
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I'm about to start the book of Job
What am I in for, IQfy?
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I don't believe, but it is honestly aesthetically pleasing. Job's laments I mean. Suprisingly, quite literary in the 'modern' sense.
The Book of Job is modern precisely because of the influence the text has had on how we think of suffering and loss.
Many of the texts that comprise Bible share this relevance.
Seconding this. Really sublime poetry. Maybe the best in the Bible (and thus among the absolute best ever written), but I suppose it benefits in the reader's perception from being the first of the poetic books - the commonplace images are all fresh at that point.
I think he just meant stylistically? But maybe it's true for that too, I imagine it must be to some extent given the sheer popularity of the text.
The most profound meditation on detachment and humility in the face of suffering.
It's shit. The question raised by the Book of Job is "Why does God allow severe suffering to happen even to his most loyal believers?" and the answer is the most unsatisfying you could ever imagine. It's because he's having a bet with Satan just for the lulz.
>The question raised by the Book of Job is "Why does God allow severe suffering to happen even to his most loyal believers?" and the answer is the most unsatisfying you could ever imagine.
There IS NO satisfying answer to that question. The answer the Book of Job gives is one of the best, and it's still extremely unsatisfying. At least the Book of Job doesn't beat around the bush with some nonsensical reasoning, as one might expect from a biblical text. In fact, it shows how stupid doing this is through Job's friends. God just tells Job how it is, no bullshit. Job understands, and accepts it.
>Job understands
he literally does not
I mean he understands that he cannot understand, obviously.
The actual answer is when God speaks from the whirlwind in chapters 40-41. Basically "because I said so, I'm God and you're not so deal with it."
Atheists still haven’t recovered from this
They just have to reject the explanation and then nothing else happens
Also Job was a repressing troony
>They just have to reject the explanation and then nothing else happens
Exactly, nothing happens. They remain slaves to their upbringing, culture, surroundings, drives, instincts, body. They do not transcend themselves and become self-determining because sin separates them from God. The Kingdom is very near indeed; Christ says it is within. But they look outwards to fill their appetites and are forever hungry.
>All the labour of man is for his mouth, and yet the appetite is not filled.
Ecclesiastes 6:7
Atheist egoism is not new and it hasn't changed. The Wisdom of Solomon describes it well.
------+++------
For they reasoned unsoundly, saying to themselves,
"Short and sorrowful is our life,
and there is no remedy when a man comes to his end,
and no one has been known to return from Hades.
Because we were born by mere chance,
and hereafter we shall be as though we had never been;
because the breath in our nostrils is smoke,
and reason is a spark kindled by the beating of our hearts.
When it is extinguished, the body will turn to ashes,
and the spirit will dissolve like empty air.
Our name will be forgotten in time
and no one will remember our works;
our life will pass away like the traces of a cloud,
and be scattered like mist
that is chased by the rays of the sun
and overcome by its heat.
For our allotted time is the passing of a shadow,
and there is no return from our death,
because it is sealed up and no one turns back.
"Come, therefore, let us enjoy the good things that exist,
and make use of the creation to the full as in youth.
Let us take our fill of costly wine and perfumes,
and let no flower of spring pass by us.
Let us crown ourselves with rosebuds before they wither.
Let none of us fail to share in our revelry,
everywhere let us leave signs of enjoyment,
because this is our portion, and this our lot.
Let us oppress the righteous poor man;
let us not spare the widow
nor regard the gray hairs of the aged.
But let our might be our law of right,
for what is weak proves itself to be useless.
How very bleak...men made in the image of the transcendent living as slaves.
tl;dr
>What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
>“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
>It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
>One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
>What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the israelites but also from the Gentiles? - Romans 9
People will seethe at this as unworthy lumps of clay, but make no effort to see how they might be chosen to be shaped into a worthy vessel. For we are called to oneness and regeneration, freedom, friendship, not slavery and death.
>I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. John 15
But people will say that to "live by the will of God is slavery. (I Peter 4) Well, as Paul says, when they are slaves to sin, desire, instinct, their surroundings, etc. they are "free from righteousness." Which then would we desire to be slaves to, death or life?
But the conventional view of God as just some sort of sky father who sits besides the world and enacts punishment or blessing doesn't help things. The transcendence of God is lost, often better expressed by Hegel, Plato, or Rumi than many Christians.
We are free because we live "in God" and "God in us." We are free when we are determined by nothing that is outside ourselves, and nothing is outside of God. That is the mystery and blessing, to have the Holy Spirit. To be "one in" God as Jesus prays, "just as" Christ is "one in" the Father. In this way we are deified. But it is wrong to say we are God, humans are God, or everything is God. As Augustine says, God is "in everything but contained in nothing."
That's just the set up. God personally comes and answers Job.
Then answered the Lord unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
>Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
>Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
>Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?
>Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.
>Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.
>Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.
>Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.
>Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.
And Job, seeing the glory of God, repents of questioning God.
...
Then Job answered the Lord, and said,
I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.
Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.
>Why does God allow severe suffering to happen even to his most loyal believers?"
I disagree. From a meta perspective, we the audience know this and Job doesn't know. From Job's point of view, there isn't a reason and the point is that the reason doesn't matter, even though it clearly does since God is doing this for a goddamn bet. The reason that it doesn't matter is that it's a test and it's made to reflect suffering as it was understood by people at a time when causes where impossible to know. Why did all of Job's stock went to shit? Why did his family die? Why did he get sick? Why?? It wasn't his piety, even though all his shit friends assume it is and 80% of The Book of Job is just his shit friends dunking on Job. Ironically, the audience knowing the bet recognizes that it indeed Job's piety that leads to his suffering, but Job doesn't know this. All he knows is that he suffers for no reason despite not having sinned and knowing that he didn't sin.
If you remove God at the beginning and end, it's really just Job suffering without reason despite his faith. Nature, causality, reality, whatever ruined him and all he can do is fear.
>Job 23:13-16 NIV
>“But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases. He carries out his decree against me, and many such plans he still has in store. That is why I am terrified before him; when I think of all this, I fear him. God has made my heart faint; the Almighty has terrified me.
When God shows up at the end, he literally explains why he tested him:
>Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
>“Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge?
>Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.
>“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me, if you understand.
>Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Basically, God is saying that Job (and by extension man) lacks knowledge of the material world and God's will. We do not understand the natural laws and thus we fear everything; we can only maintain our piety, for which God rewards Job with creating new family members and cattle. It's a cop out ending, and I prefer to see it as Job obtaining redemption in heaven rather than on earth, but the bible isn't well-written. The point still remains that shit happens and if we lack knowledge, we can only suffer.
The irony of the whole thing is that we, the audience, do know why Job suffers and it lowers out esteem of God. And when you recognize this, it diminishes your faith rather than reinforce it.
>know why Job suffers
Why, then?
And why can one, without knowing the full picture, makes themselves judge in seeing it correct or not?
There's a lot of writings on how blessings and suffering do not come only for believers nor only for unbelievers. it's in Ecclesiastes even. Matthew 5:45 also.
i think Ecclesiastes should clear it up if you properly understand it.
it's not because Job doesn't know about the world, it's one long rebuke about morally "making yourself God" in judging how everything happens.
>It's because he's having a bet with Satan
>just for the lulz
What you do not see is that God tests Job not to learn anything about him, for God being omniscient knows all there is to know about Job. But rather, God was teaching Job to see himself as he is, and to see God for Who He is.
The purpose of our existence is to know and love God. Suffering, received properly, can aid us by teaching us a lesson about how to be a man, and can draw us into loving God more
First, Satan isn't a specific person, "satan" just means "the opposition" so it's a contesting voice among the court of heaven. Secondly, You fail to understand that Job achieves wisdom and in that he can now understand the perspective of people who suffer unjustly and wish to correct it. Job's final line can instead be read as "and i have pity for dust and ashes (a reference to humans from a story in Abraham)" And lastly in the final courtly hearing, the people all judge Job is actually innocent in the court case and with the gifts given to them by God actually pay the reparations. The lesson is that by understanding the harshness of the world and giving from yourself what you were given to fix injustice, you can be the reparations and court to fix the suffering of an otherwise indifferent universe. You are that part of the universe which isn't indifferent, and that is the role you fill. You are given blessings you do not deserve so that you may give reparations, appreciation and justice to the cruelly treated. That is something you are capable of but a powerful leviathan is not. It is the thing you can do that mountains and oceans and carrion birds would never.
An annoying debate between shitty rabbis where the youngest rabbi is a Yahwehist fatalist and shits all over the other 4.
prime example of being filtered by Job.
misunderstood it so bad he made a book.
>Book of Job
I don't want one of those.
I'm at 2 Samuel and I don't have the willpower to continue, knowing Chronicles is up soon makes it even worse for me. The narrative has been the same since Moses for the past five books just with different people. Ironically, I really enjoyed the laws so I know I will love the poetry parts but I refuse to skip around.
You can essentially skim through most of Chronicles unless you have super turbo autism. Isn't 2 Samuel still David/Saul stuff though? That and the Elijah-Elisha parts are pretty decent, it's after that when it really gets repetitive.
Yeah, David/Saul stuff was decent but it's getting exhausting. I'm at the part where David takes over Zion and it introduces a bunch of characters never mentioned before every chapter. It's hard to keep a track of all of them.
Because it's obviously been compiled in a way which tells one long, consistent narrative even if it was written by numerous authors. I feel like if I skipped around I'd be lost and miss a ton of references to events and people.
Well, if you liked the minute descriptions of the dimensions of the tabernacle in Exodus, you can look forward to the same for the temple at the beginning of Kings (or maybe it's only the Chronicles account that goes into detail on it? I read it very recently but it blurs together a bit). The narrative is very much a thing up until the end of Kings but I think his point is that you can dip into the poetic books because the narrative has little to no bearing on some of them (it's not totally irrelevant though, you should at least finish up with all of David's reign before trying Psalms because they relate to specific events).
Job is not at all directly connected to the narrative, nor is Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs only on a very general level. But for the prophets yeah you should probably get through the histories first.
I have not read chronicles because I've got told that they are summaries of the kingdoms that I already read about in both Samuels and Kings, can anyone confirm?
Chronicles has more trans prostitute action. The histories comprise a hypertext and need to be read hypertextually. Personally I read them for the castrated temple prostitutes. Nehemiah ought to indicate why trans castratis are important in first temple YHWH worship.
Also Chronicles is where they "mysteriously discover the Torah while doing renovations" so is of course important.
Yeah. It's just begat, begat, begat and then finally summaries of everything you've read before.
>summaries of every
Someone missed all the temple prostitutes, asherah, and the fight for monolateralism, masculinism, one temple, one mountain, one BBQ elite.
Read harder.
I haven't read it in fifteen years, my boy.
I read a different translation every three years. NIV is pretty sexy. New Jerusalem is interesting but obviously translated from the French. KJV is interesting for itself but not theologically interesting for the global hypertext.
"The Bible" is behind seven layers of texts. Its fricking great. If you don't wank to Chronicles and Kings once a week you're not living.
Why do you feel the need to read the Bible front to back? No ancient Christians approached it like that.
Samuel 1 and 2 are pure kino right up there with Arthurian legend. What don't you like about it?
is this the one that has all the metal parts of christianity?
>It's another "God tells humans to know their role and shut their mouths." episode.
I love it.
>Its another Temple Mount are jealous of other YHWHist mountain bbqs
>Its another Temple Mount monolateralists are jealous of tree worshippers who have sex with women (while having sex with trans trap castratis) episode
>Its another hypocritical anti-trans section when Bullworship necessarily implies steers
God Kings and Chronicles is so good.
"what am I in for?" Threads are the lowest form of posting
Antinatalist kino and failure of G-d to provide an answer to this lucid monster.
How is it anti-natalist?!
When Job curses the day he was born is kino.
Even G-d doesn't care about humanity's suffering. Fricking brutal mate. I use to talk with him every night but after reading Job, I finally took the Pessimistpill and now I just suffer in silence.
>And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
>And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
>Genesis 6:6-7
This is kino too
Job and his friends: s*yjaks saying some text wall
God: gigachad saying tldr
If you don't start hating God after reading it you're a cuck
Mostly a bunch of very confusing and long dialogues that don't go anywhere, before God tells them to frick off
there are some gems like
>Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book! That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever! For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
The "I Know That My Redeemer Liveth" get's an appearance in Handel's Messiah too
I love Messiah so much, bros
>I am afraid of all my sorrows, I know that thou wilt not hold me innocent. If I be wicked, why then labour I in vain? If I wash myself with snow water, and make my hands never so clean; Yet shalt thou plunge me in the ditch, and mine own clothes shall abhor me. For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.
Beautiful stuff, Job 9 really is the heart of the dialogues and Job's (the person not the book) message
You'll be jobless.
>mogs the friends
>mogs Job
>"God told you in a dream to stop being a selfish little frick"
>God doesn't condemn him
how'd he do it?
Fun Fact: the phrase "Skin of my teeth" comes from Job
>My bone cleaveth to my skin and to my flesh, and I am escaped with the skin of my teeth.
Job 19:20
There's also a metal song that comes directly from Job 3 (Job's Lament Of His Birth)
Wrong board
I like Greenstein's translation personally, but i dislike his conclusions, (he fails to recognize the fulfilling lessons of scripture and instead focuses on his own politically biased values which, while they do have a place in Job, he fails to recognize his ideas are only partly justified and a more constructive lesson is derivable)
God turns out to be a dudebro bully and talks about wieners A LOT in the climax
Instead of reading the book of job, why dont you consider getting a job
>Don't accept the good if you can't accept the bad.
>The universe is beyond the possibility of any knowledge so don't expect reasoning as to why things are good or bad
>HOWEVER if you do your best to be faithful even during the worst you can be rewarded
Still though
>lol here's your new wife and children
>clears throat
>scans room suspiciously, the looks down
>leans on chair and starts massaging it
Autismkino. I love this homie
like poor Job, this thread will not be given the release of death, but rounded by taunters