>without just Bible verses
The Bible makes it clear God isn't benevolent, most Christians just haven't actually read it all the way through.
Isaiah 45:7 >"I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"
And yes, the word evil here means exactly that. Just look at how it's used elsewhere in the Bible.
>And yes, the word evil here means exactly that. Just look at how it's used elsewhere in the Bible.
Clearly you didn't look very far since the same word is used in Genesis 37:20 of a wild animal, with the King James translating it "Some evil beast hath devoured him". It's used in Leviticus 27:33 to refer to gauging the quality of livestock, the Plagues of Egypt in Deuteronomy 6:22, and for the physical structure of a house in Leviticus 27:14. You can see these and all of its other uses here: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h7451/kjv/wlc/0-2/#lexResults
It should become immediately apparent that this Hebrew word רַע isn't something that necessarily means moral evil as in our word "evil".
To tell what sense its meant in we need to look at the passage. It’s a juxtaposition, like with the light and darkness: רַע isn’t being juxtaposed with goodness, but with peace. So its meaning here would not be the opposite of moral goodness in the sense of "evil" in modern English, but in the sense of the opposite of peace. Like with the Ten Plagues which Deuteronomy 6 uses it to describe.
We can prove with pure logic, itself, that God is the best possible being, who wants goodness as much as goodness can possibly be wanted: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5cpTPODWaYA
So you'd call God benevolent if God allowed humans to suffer for millenia but increased the amount of good over the years? Seems like a strange definition, very specific.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Watch this quick video: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/YKUhD7--LKw It isn't logically possible for God to have a standard for making use of his omnipotence that involves directly adding more good than that. Otherwise you run into an issue with an infinite regression
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
By this logic, even if goodness is increasing, God would still have an infinite regression (progression) case. Because at which rate would the goodness be always increasing?
If your wife flirts with another man, are you not fully justified to be jealous? If someone hurts your children, are you not justified in poring your wrath on them? Do you love those who hate and despise you? Yet someone would have many valid reasons to hate you. You talk about the innocent but you stuff your mouth with the flesh of tortured animals every day without a second thought, God is higher above men than men are above chickens and pigs and cows. yet do you bat an eye when millions of them are slaughtered daily after living in horrible conditions so that you can eat them and not even be grateful for it You dont even feel sorry about the men, women and children who slave away in sweatshops in Asia making your iPhones and your Nikes and your clothing. You dont care about the slaves in Africa mining the resources to build your gadgets and cars. And they are humans just like you.
But you think you have a leg to stand on to criticize the Almighty God for punishing those among his own creation who are actually evil and deserving of punishment? Because the children of evil people who hate him suffer, as if you really cared about them.
>But you think you have a leg to stand on to criticize the Almighty God for punishing those among his own creation who are actually evil and deserving of punishment? Because the children of evil people who hate him suffer, as if you really cared about them.
Does one wrong justify the other?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Only your wrong is wrong. God created the world. He knows how to deal with it.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
So you don't think it's wrong to let an inoccent baby suffer just because the parents were evil?
>Uh... Why? Why not another thing than goodness?
The video itself explained: whatever value it created the world in order to increase, that value would be the purpose of existence for every single thing in it. The genuine meaning of life, rooted in the laws of logic themselves.
>Makes creatures at least 5% of whose replicants are moral-idiotic constitutional psychopaths, incapable of empathy or remorse >oh, and, "here, have a Satan"
Benevolence disproven. Amoral at best.
Christians are just mentally ill. Even the Biblicak god isn't very good. This world is literally based on death and suffering and they somewhat convinced themselves that it was created by a loving father.
Yeah but the baby is not malevolent yet. Why would God inflict such suffering in a baby?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Maybe the parents are malevolent, or maybe they put bad stuff in their bodies and their seed is corrupted. Maybe they eat putrid meat from tortured animals pumped full of antibiotics, and eat tons chemical based junk food, maybe they live close to corporations that fill the land, air and water with poisons. Maybe they are people with evil in their minds and hearts all day so demons torment them and make their children sick.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
So God would allow the suffering of the baby instead of intervening?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Is a baby holy or something that must be protected at all cost?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
It isn't I guess, but how would that be benevolence?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
God protects those who love and fear him. Those who do not worship him and those who hate and reject him are on their own, at the mercy of the satans.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
What about babies, do they worship God?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
The children of the godless are godless too.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Okay... What about actual Christians who undergo suffering without God intervening? How is that benevolence?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Christians dont worship God, they worship a man.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Okay... What about those who actually worship God and undergo suffering without God intervening? How is that benevolence?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Like who?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Are you saying that no God worshipper undergoes suffering?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
A God worshipper can still sin and can still be punished. And even if the didnt God still allows for them to be tested and refined. But usually, being in good standing with God means that he will protect you and you will live under his blessing.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
So could we say that God's benevolence is limited and that God is not omnibenevolent, as the benevolence is restricted to worshippers?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>omnibenevolent
The scriptures never claim God loves everyone and does good to everyone. The scriptures are very clear that God hates wicked and evil people and he hates those who hate him. He is merciful and patient with the wicked, but he does not love them or bless them. He gives them chance to repent and change their ways. He only loves and does good to the good, humble and righteous people and those who love and fear him.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>The scriptures never claim God loves everyone and does good to everyone. The scriptures are very clear that God hates wicked and evil people and he hates those who hate him.
I wasn't originally looking for verses but now I'm curious. What verses are you talking about? >He gives them chance to repent and change their ways.
By giving babies cancer, sometimes terminal? >He only loves and does good to the good, humble and righteous people and those who love and fear him.
Again, what verses are you talking about?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Deuteronomy 5:9-10 - You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
>Deuteronomy 32:43 - For he will avenge the blood of his children; he will take revenge against his enemies. He will repay those who hate him and cleanse his people’s land.”
>Deuteronomy 7:9-11 - Know therefore that Yahweh your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments. But those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction; he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him.
>Psalm 7:11 - God is an honest judge. He is angry with the wicked every day.
>Psalm 11:5 - God examines the righteous, but the wicked, those who love violence, he hates with a passion.
>Psalm 58:10 - The godly will rejoice when they see injustice avenged. They will wash their feet in the blood of the wicked.
> By giving babies cancer, sometimes terminal?
The cancer the baby has comes from the lifestyle of the parents. God is not forcing you to eat garbage contaminated food. If you follow his laws and only eat fresh meat from clean animals, your body will be healthy and sickness free. If you are not full of evil and wickedness then you wont have evil spirits punishing you. If you love God and seek him then he will protect your children. Don't blame God for your godlessness.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>The cancer the baby has comes from the lifestyle of the parents.
Isn't it unjust that the baby - someone who can't even do anything to get God angry - pays for the errs of the parents?
And what if the cancer actually came from a deadly mutation, not by the lifestyle of the parents?
>God is not forcing you to eat garbage contaminated food.
What about those who can't afford fresh meat and have to eat from the trash?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
No, the baby is barely conscious. The parents are the ones being punished.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Okay, but the baby is still suffering for other people's fault. How is that fair for the baby? That if the cancer was actually caused by the lifestyle of the parents, not by a mutation with no relation to the parents.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
I think it would be extremely hard to prove God is benevolent.
Probably at best all encompassing and impersonal
I guess if you were attached to a entirely good god your best bet is gnosticism where our goodness comes from a spark of the divine imprisoned in an evil body and realm that God had no hand in, but that would make also God non omnipotent.
>Jealous (envious) >Wrathful >Murderous >Punishes the innocent for crimes of their parents and societies (unjust)
I swear Abrahamics have Stockholm syndrome if a person had these character traits you'd say that they're going to hell. If an Abrahamic acted like how they describe God they would be in jail
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
If there's one place where it's acceptable to have a dual standard, it's comparing God to men.
Anyways, it's not quite right to say a baby is being "punished" when mama drinks and the baby had severe FAS, but actions have consequences and physical laws are God's laws. He can intervene in miraculous ways, but only if making a supernatural exception would serve His purpose more than keeping to normal order of things. Remember, God created the world and it was very good. Man's nature is fallen now, but the universal physical laws of cause and effect are still very good.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
You're describing a god who isn't omnipotent
If he was he could punish the one breaking the natural order of things without making an innocent suffer. Not to mention God is the creator of that woman who is genetically predisposed to be an addict, the alcohol itself, and the rule that you can't drink it. He could've changed any one of these facts to prevent the baby from suffering. Now if God for you is an allegory for nature and not a personal thinking deity I completely agree with you. But that would also make him not benevolent or omnipotent.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
> God created the world and it was very good. Man's nature is fallen now, but the universal physical laws of cause and effect are still very good.
Biblically, death only exists because of The Fall, and God tried to destroy the whole world because of how corrupted it was
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
In Gnosticism I also don't get why God wouldn't intervene in this realm to avoid our suffering.
If there's one place where it's acceptable to have a dual standard, it's comparing God to men.
Anyways, it's not quite right to say a baby is being "punished" when mama drinks and the baby had severe FAS, but actions have consequences and physical laws are God's laws. He can intervene in miraculous ways, but only if making a supernatural exception would serve His purpose more than keeping to normal order of things. Remember, God created the world and it was very good. Man's nature is fallen now, but the universal physical laws of cause and effect are still very good.
>He can intervene in miraculous ways, but only if making a supernatural exception would serve His purpose more than keeping to normal order of things.
Wouldn't saving the baby from suffering serve a good purpose?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Iirc God in gnosticism is the point where everything emanated from not an all powerful creator. A portion of the universe was shaped into the material universe by the demiurge which was imperfect and evil and according
to some sects therefore inaccessible or unknowable to God. Jesus was sometimes sent by God but also sometimes came of his own will (depending on the sect) to help us escape the eternal torment of the endless cycle of reincarnation that is the material world.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Jesus was sometimes sent by God but also sometimes came of his own will (depending on the sect) to help us escape the eternal torment of the endless cycle of reincarnation that is the material world.
But so until people die, they have to undergo suffering? Doesn't seem something very benevolent.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
If your wife flirts with another man, are you not fully justified to be jealous? If someone hurts your children, are you not justified in poring your wrath on them? Do you love those who hate and despise you? Yet someone would have many valid reasons to hate you. You talk about the innocent but you stuff your mouth with the flesh of tortured animals every day without a second thought, God is higher above men than men are above chickens and pigs and cows. yet do you bat an eye when millions of them are slaughtered daily after living in horrible conditions so that you can eat them and not even be grateful for it You dont even feel sorry about the men, women and children who slave away in sweatshops in Asia making your iPhones and your Nikes and your clothing. You dont care about the slaves in Africa mining the resources to build your gadgets and cars. And they are humans just like you.
But you think you have a leg to stand on to criticize the Almighty God for punishing those among his own creation who are actually evil and deserving of punishment? Because the children of evil people who hate him suffer, as if you really cared about them.
>without just Bible verses
The Bible makes it clear God isn't benevolent, most Christians just haven't actually read it all the way through.
Isaiah 45:7
>"I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"
And yes, the word evil here means exactly that. Just look at how it's used elsewhere in the Bible.
>And yes, the word evil here means exactly that. Just look at how it's used elsewhere in the Bible.
Clearly you didn't look very far since the same word is used in Genesis 37:20 of a wild animal, with the King James translating it "Some evil beast hath devoured him". It's used in Leviticus 27:33 to refer to gauging the quality of livestock, the Plagues of Egypt in Deuteronomy 6:22, and for the physical structure of a house in Leviticus 27:14. You can see these and all of its other uses here: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h7451/kjv/wlc/0-2/#lexResults
It should become immediately apparent that this Hebrew word רַע isn't something that necessarily means moral evil as in our word "evil".
To tell what sense its meant in we need to look at the passage. It’s a juxtaposition, like with the light and darkness: רַע isn’t being juxtaposed with goodness, but with peace. So its meaning here would not be the opposite of moral goodness in the sense of "evil" in modern English, but in the sense of the opposite of peace. Like with the Ten Plagues which Deuteronomy 6 uses it to describe.
america freed the slaves and didn't send them all back to the sahara desert.
Q.E.D.
By touching grass
We can prove with pure logic, itself, that God is the best possible being, who wants goodness as much as goodness can possibly be wanted: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5cpTPODWaYA
So your definition of benevolent is just "increasing the amount of goodness"?
Well yes of course - he has maximum desire for the increase of goodness
So you'd call God benevolent if God allowed humans to suffer for millenia but increased the amount of good over the years? Seems like a strange definition, very specific.
Watch this quick video: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/YKUhD7--LKw It isn't logically possible for God to have a standard for making use of his omnipotence that involves directly adding more good than that. Otherwise you run into an issue with an infinite regression
By this logic, even if goodness is increasing, God would still have an infinite regression (progression) case. Because at which rate would the goodness be always increasing?
>But you think you have a leg to stand on to criticize the Almighty God for punishing those among his own creation who are actually evil and deserving of punishment? Because the children of evil people who hate him suffer, as if you really cared about them.
Does one wrong justify the other?
Only your wrong is wrong. God created the world. He knows how to deal with it.
So you don't think it's wrong to let an inoccent baby suffer just because the parents were evil?
>posts GoyTube Shorts AI slop
Anon... you can't be serious.
>God must have created the universe to increase some value
>This value is goodness
Uh... Why? Why not another thing than goodness?
>Uh... Why? Why not another thing than goodness?
The video itself explained: whatever value it created the world in order to increase, that value would be the purpose of existence for every single thing in it. The genuine meaning of life, rooted in the laws of logic themselves.
>Makes creatures at least 5% of whose replicants are moral-idiotic constitutional psychopaths, incapable of empathy or remorse
>oh, and, "here, have a Satan"
Benevolence disproven. Amoral at best.
Christians are just mentally ill. Even the Biblicak god isn't very good. This world is literally based on death and suffering and they somewhat convinced themselves that it was created by a loving father.
Still beats nonexistence
The point is that God would not be benevolent
No it doesn't moron.
Explain? Because to me the only thing would be that God wouldn't be benevolent.
You don't really believe that or you'd kys
Killing myself doesn't make me not exist it just returns me to the womb and I hated my life more when I was young
I can freely choose to worship God and his creation or jerk off. There is benevolence in the freedom of choice, even when you won't admit it.
God is benevolent to the benevolent and malevolent to the malevolent.
What about babies who die of cancer?
How do you know that baby wont grow up to be malevolent?
Yeah but the baby is not malevolent yet. Why would God inflict such suffering in a baby?
Maybe the parents are malevolent, or maybe they put bad stuff in their bodies and their seed is corrupted. Maybe they eat putrid meat from tortured animals pumped full of antibiotics, and eat tons chemical based junk food, maybe they live close to corporations that fill the land, air and water with poisons. Maybe they are people with evil in their minds and hearts all day so demons torment them and make their children sick.
So God would allow the suffering of the baby instead of intervening?
Is a baby holy or something that must be protected at all cost?
It isn't I guess, but how would that be benevolence?
God protects those who love and fear him. Those who do not worship him and those who hate and reject him are on their own, at the mercy of the satans.
What about babies, do they worship God?
The children of the godless are godless too.
Okay... What about actual Christians who undergo suffering without God intervening? How is that benevolence?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull
Christians dont worship God, they worship a man.
Okay... What about those who actually worship God and undergo suffering without God intervening? How is that benevolence?
Like who?
Are you saying that no God worshipper undergoes suffering?
A God worshipper can still sin and can still be punished. And even if the didnt God still allows for them to be tested and refined. But usually, being in good standing with God means that he will protect you and you will live under his blessing.
So could we say that God's benevolence is limited and that God is not omnibenevolent, as the benevolence is restricted to worshippers?
>omnibenevolent
The scriptures never claim God loves everyone and does good to everyone. The scriptures are very clear that God hates wicked and evil people and he hates those who hate him. He is merciful and patient with the wicked, but he does not love them or bless them. He gives them chance to repent and change their ways. He only loves and does good to the good, humble and righteous people and those who love and fear him.
>The scriptures never claim God loves everyone and does good to everyone. The scriptures are very clear that God hates wicked and evil people and he hates those who hate him.
I wasn't originally looking for verses but now I'm curious. What verses are you talking about?
>He gives them chance to repent and change their ways.
By giving babies cancer, sometimes terminal?
>He only loves and does good to the good, humble and righteous people and those who love and fear him.
Again, what verses are you talking about?
>Deuteronomy 5:9-10 - You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
>Deuteronomy 32:43 - For he will avenge the blood of his children; he will take revenge against his enemies. He will repay those who hate him and cleanse his people’s land.”
>Deuteronomy 7:9-11 - Know therefore that Yahweh your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments. But those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction; he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him.
>Psalm 7:11 - God is an honest judge. He is angry with the wicked every day.
>Psalm 11:5 - God examines the righteous, but the wicked, those who love violence, he hates with a passion.
>Psalm 58:10 - The godly will rejoice when they see injustice avenged. They will wash their feet in the blood of the wicked.
> By giving babies cancer, sometimes terminal?
The cancer the baby has comes from the lifestyle of the parents. God is not forcing you to eat garbage contaminated food. If you follow his laws and only eat fresh meat from clean animals, your body will be healthy and sickness free. If you are not full of evil and wickedness then you wont have evil spirits punishing you. If you love God and seek him then he will protect your children. Don't blame God for your godlessness.
>The cancer the baby has comes from the lifestyle of the parents.
Isn't it unjust that the baby - someone who can't even do anything to get God angry - pays for the errs of the parents?
And what if the cancer actually came from a deadly mutation, not by the lifestyle of the parents?
>God is not forcing you to eat garbage contaminated food.
What about those who can't afford fresh meat and have to eat from the trash?
No, the baby is barely conscious. The parents are the ones being punished.
Okay, but the baby is still suffering for other people's fault. How is that fair for the baby? That if the cancer was actually caused by the lifestyle of the parents, not by a mutation with no relation to the parents.
I think it would be extremely hard to prove God is benevolent.
Probably at best all encompassing and impersonal
I guess if you were attached to a entirely good god your best bet is gnosticism where our goodness comes from a spark of the divine imprisoned in an evil body and realm that God had no hand in, but that would make also God non omnipotent.
>Jealous (envious)
>Wrathful
>Murderous
>Punishes the innocent for crimes of their parents and societies (unjust)
I swear Abrahamics have Stockholm syndrome if a person had these character traits you'd say that they're going to hell. If an Abrahamic acted like how they describe God they would be in jail
If there's one place where it's acceptable to have a dual standard, it's comparing God to men.
Anyways, it's not quite right to say a baby is being "punished" when mama drinks and the baby had severe FAS, but actions have consequences and physical laws are God's laws. He can intervene in miraculous ways, but only if making a supernatural exception would serve His purpose more than keeping to normal order of things. Remember, God created the world and it was very good. Man's nature is fallen now, but the universal physical laws of cause and effect are still very good.
You're describing a god who isn't omnipotent
If he was he could punish the one breaking the natural order of things without making an innocent suffer. Not to mention God is the creator of that woman who is genetically predisposed to be an addict, the alcohol itself, and the rule that you can't drink it. He could've changed any one of these facts to prevent the baby from suffering. Now if God for you is an allegory for nature and not a personal thinking deity I completely agree with you. But that would also make him not benevolent or omnipotent.
> God created the world and it was very good. Man's nature is fallen now, but the universal physical laws of cause and effect are still very good.
Biblically, death only exists because of The Fall, and God tried to destroy the whole world because of how corrupted it was
In Gnosticism I also don't get why God wouldn't intervene in this realm to avoid our suffering.
>He can intervene in miraculous ways, but only if making a supernatural exception would serve His purpose more than keeping to normal order of things.
Wouldn't saving the baby from suffering serve a good purpose?
Iirc God in gnosticism is the point where everything emanated from not an all powerful creator. A portion of the universe was shaped into the material universe by the demiurge which was imperfect and evil and according
to some sects therefore inaccessible or unknowable to God. Jesus was sometimes sent by God but also sometimes came of his own will (depending on the sect) to help us escape the eternal torment of the endless cycle of reincarnation that is the material world.
>Jesus was sometimes sent by God but also sometimes came of his own will (depending on the sect) to help us escape the eternal torment of the endless cycle of reincarnation that is the material world.
But so until people die, they have to undergo suffering? Doesn't seem something very benevolent.
If your wife flirts with another man, are you not fully justified to be jealous? If someone hurts your children, are you not justified in poring your wrath on them? Do you love those who hate and despise you? Yet someone would have many valid reasons to hate you. You talk about the innocent but you stuff your mouth with the flesh of tortured animals every day without a second thought, God is higher above men than men are above chickens and pigs and cows. yet do you bat an eye when millions of them are slaughtered daily after living in horrible conditions so that you can eat them and not even be grateful for it You dont even feel sorry about the men, women and children who slave away in sweatshops in Asia making your iPhones and your Nikes and your clothing. You dont care about the slaves in Africa mining the resources to build your gadgets and cars. And they are humans just like you.
But you think you have a leg to stand on to criticize the Almighty God for punishing those among his own creation who are actually evil and deserving of punishment? Because the children of evil people who hate him suffer, as if you really cared about them.
>without just Bible verses
Go out into the world and lead by example.