Is it still possible for someone to get a programming job without a degree in computer science?
Is it still possible for someone to get a programming job without a degree in computer science?
Is it still possible for someone to get a programming job without a degree in computer science?
5 years ago that would be likely, not today though
Why?
It's difficult to get a interview entry level even with a degree, a good GPA, and projects at the moment.
yes, if you are willing to accept minimum wage.
There are programming jobs that pay minimum wage?
indeed. 500k Indians cant be wrong
Yes, all junior positions
Last I checked most "junior" positions still paid 6 figure salaries. Where are these minimum wage programming jobs because I honestly am willing to work for that kind of pay for an entry level job to get my foot in the door.
Where the frick are you looking for junior webdev jobs to be 6 figures?
must be california.
I guarantee you that not a single new dev earns anything even remotely close to six figures in central/west europe
even experienced devs would have a hard time reaching those numbers.
yeah maybe if u work for a faag company
>Last I checked most "junior" positions still paid 6 figure salaries.
They never did
Because 4 in 5 of those
>self-taught
programmers can't code for shit, so nowadays résumes that don't mention some kind of degree in IT (or related) field get filtered, it speeds up recruitment process
So what if I just lie about it and say I have a degree from some school in Canada or some other country that they can't easily verify?
Nothing really, except if they actually ask you to provide them with a copy (physical, scanned, whatever)
If they don't, good for you
But most likely they will (there are companies that specialize at background checks and verifying applicants info, they employ Eastern Europeans and Poojeets for next to nothing)
Or better yet, make it seem like I have a degree on my resume but word it in a way that actually says I'm self taught so the HR roasties won't filter it but in the actual technical interview I can explain what I actually mean by it.
>Or better yet, make it seem like I have a degree on my resume but word it in a way that actually says I'm self taught
And how would you go about doing that?
pretty much this. We don't interview people who don't at least have a bachelor's unless they're some kind of referral -- many have masters degrees... for what, making webapps for a living?
So, what we see from everyone we interview is that they're great on paper, but they can't do the basic problems we have them solve... fizzbuzz and a tree-search problem. Fizzbuzz usually goes okay, but the tree-search problem generally stumps people.
Even then, if they can solve these problems, they generally take a lot of work after they're hired. Most people don't think deeply about things and how they should be, so they need to be molded to do so. How to solve problems, and how to not make a mound of technical debt in their wake. There are some people who can't even follow the requirements, but nailed the problems in the interview.
I think the general issue is that the market is flooded with people who just want a well-paying job, and really don't give a frick about programming. They want to put in some upfront work to sneak into a company, then put in the minimum effort to stay there.
>Even then, if they can solve these problems, they generally take a lot of work after they're hired. Most people don't think deeply about things and how they should be, so they need to be molded to do so. How to solve problems, and how to not make a mound of technical debt in their wake. There are some people who can't even follow the requirements, but nailed the problems in the interview.
By now you probably should have realized that your interview process is dogshit.
But asking leetcode questions filters out all the brainlets!!!!
Those job listings aren't real, they're just there so the company can say they were looking for someone to fill that position but couldn't find anyone so they hired a pajeet instead.
There are programming jobs that pay under minimum wage if you do the web dev route.
Yes. They are typically from really small companies that can't afford to be on Indeed or whatever job board. You have to find them through craigslist, facebook, or just some local bulletin board.
They pay shit, but they're an extremely tiny company with less than 5 employees. It's a good way to get your foot in the door, though.
That sounds very comfy. I doubt they actually pay minimum wage though. Minimum wage is $7 an hour and even McDonalds pays double that.
>That sounds very comfy
how does it sound comfy?
Working with a small team of 5 people is a lot more appealing than being part of some giant bureaucracy with multiple levels of management above you and dealing with all kinds of moronic bullshit every day.
only if you have a degree in humanities instead
If you can get an interview, which the way to do that is a referral, the only thing that matters is passing the leetcode interview. Literally nothing else matters. Took me a while to realize that.
What kind of leetcode questions do you need to pass? Because anything in the hard category I can't do. Also I have no connections so there's no way I'm going to get a referral from anyone.
>can't code
>no footing in the industry
>no degree
Who do you think would employ you?
>can't code
So is everyone expected to be a math and algorithms genius now just to get a job as a programmer? Leetcode questions are pretty much just math problems anyway and have very little to do with actual software development.
>and have very little to do with actual software development
True, but it's still the go-to method for the coding part of the interview
>So is everyone expected to be a math and algorithms genius now just to get a job as a programmer?
No, not really, but it helps
>a math and algorithms genius now just to get a job as a programmer?
Nope, but if you can't even link against a library on your own you won't get the job.
I know how to write software, that's what I'm self taught in. What I don't know is how to solve complex math problems using algorithms that I've never heard of, which is what all hard leetcode problems are.
>The only class that matters from CS for this is Algorithms/Data structures
So what you're saying is that companies care more about how good you are at math problems than how well you can actually do the job they're hiring for?
> So what you're saying is that companies care more about how good you are at math problems than how well you can actually do the job they're hiring for?
Yes, accept this or suffer.
Well I hate math but I love programming, so what jobs are there for me then?
Just suck it up and learn algos and ds. I used to be like you. Had made a ton of software and couldn’t get a non startup job because I bomber the interviews. It is a shit test and you are failing. You are more than capable of learning whats needed to pass you just haven’t tried.
leetcode interviews are for hipster companys. They are not the only jobs. We don't do leetcode problems, others won't as well.
If you want to make > $200k you need to be able to do a tree walk. Its not that hard. Just practice a couple hours a day. Algorithm Design Manual and work through it.
I don't want to ever make that much money. Any job that pays that much probably comes with a lot of stress that's only going to make me miserable and shorten my life. I want to be comfy making somewhere between $50k and $100k for the rest of my life while living in a small town low cost of living area. I wouldn't even go work for some gay silicon valley company in the gay capital of the world if someone gave me a job offer right now.
I make $200k base, $25k bonus, $155k RSU (now $250k with our stock going up per year) fully remote, and maybe need to work 4 hours a day. Don’t have a real CS degree (IST).
Ok but I don't expect I'll ever get that lucky and I don't need that kind of money anyway. Even $100k is more money than I know what to do with because I'm an autist and I'm never going to get married or have kids anyway.
$100k is a lot less money than you think in todays world. I didn’t get lucky either I grinded leetcode and got good after doing startups for a while and got into gayman and went to gayman adjacent after rto to stay remote. It was easy because I trained the interview and they are easy now.
100k is a lot of money in most places in this world.
Not most places you would want to live if staying in USA.
The US is not the world.
It quite literally is
No shit but you aren’t based in the USA you aren’t getting USA money for your remote job you are getting Ivan/Pajeet money.
>I know how to write software, that's what I'm self taught in. What I don't know is how to solve complex math problems using algorithms that I've never heard of
leetcode is not math problems. Nobody can solve leetcode problems the optimal way, or even at all, without learning the algo to use beforehand (unless he guesses the algo).
To beat leetcode you have to study algos and ds first (see neetcode roadmap as a starting point for what problems to study for leetcode) and then you train every day, otherwise you will spend an insane amount of time on every problem like everybody would.
Leetcode is a skill in itself and many algos were discovered after much work they are not thought out on the spot by those "good" at leetcode.
To be honest, I think you got scammed into thinking there is some magic knowledge you can never get unless you got a degree or some talent.
You can get to the top 15% of leetcodes just by studying, not that I recommend it, it's not needed at all.
And I will never understand why americans are so obsessed with leetcode anyway.
So it's just a memorization test?
All of them. You need to learn the process. The only class that matters from CS for this is Algorithms/Data structures. For references you can buy those off of Blind/LinkedIn. Regarding lying on resume, background checks only show you worked somewhere not your position…
Easier than ever, the market is flooded with worthless degrees.
Even with a degree you're fricked now unless you know someone that can give you a referal
Yes, of course but you will be paid less than a poojet in India
If you can get some certificates and have an active Github page to put on your resume, maybe.
no, go be a garbageman or something, at least you'd be covered under a union contract
Yes, as long as you can show you have skills.
I rather hire someone with kills and no degree than someone with a degree but no skills.
t. employer
>I rather hire someone with kills
are you looking for assasins or some shit?
Pretty telling OP is ngmi since they would rather live in a 3rd world shithole than read an algo book.
Not "programming" per se, but the most likely way is to enter a computer intense industry and then just develop programming skills related to that. I work in GIS and in a few years I'll probably be a GIS developer because everyone who writes programs for GIS is dogshit at it.
The answer is yes, as long as you have some qualities and projects that distinguish you from degree-holders. Significant projects (not bootcamp web crap) will make you stand out. Accepted OSS contributions show that people want your code. Most people aren't capable of this whether they have a degree or not, so you will stand out if you're smart enough and have the work ethic.
The above gets you interviews anywhere. The rest is doing the leetcode grind to clinch it.
If it were easy everyone would do it
homie become an accountant, it's easier and pays more.
if you have work experience and know somebody who can get your foot in the door, yes of course. If you're a green little 20 year old with no references or connections frick no, kys.
You don’t need a degree in CS.
If you don’t study some CS, you are just missing out on sort of... divine truths. The mechanics of computation homie,
It’s like getting a math degree. It’s for understanding. In the trippiest sense.
It’s irrefutable truth.
Yes. Show your hobby projects.