>400 years gap
The biggest ad hoc cope Ports made up when it comes to biblical chronology. Also, Israelites were in Egypt for 215 years, and only like half of it was slavery.
From the biblical chronology itself. From the fact that we have ancient witnesses like Josephus, LXX or Paul that said they would be in Canaan and Egypt for 400 years, through the fact that we know genealogy of Moses and it just doesn't add up, and the like. Prots can't read.
>From the fact that we have ancient witnesses like Josephus, LXX or Paul t
This is a circular argument. Exodus was written around 700ish years after the Exodus would have happened according to the biblical chronology, and Josephus and Paul based that belief primarily on the Bible, though Josephus did quote some Egyptian accounts that are even later than Exodus, and were written as polemics against israelites that lived in Egypt in the Hellenistic period. None of this is trustworthy. We have no contemporary sources.
2 years ago
Anonymous
You don't know what circular argument is. This thread is about biblical chronology i.e. chronology presented in the Bible, lack of other evidence be damned.
It's somewhat imprecise. Abraham's era was closer to 2250 BC, and he would have been 75 and traveled to Canaan around 2175 BC. This rather than 2000 BC.
Likewise, the temple destruction was in 586 BC, long before 500 BC. The seventy years of servitude began twenty years earlier with the first deportation of captives by Nebuchadnezzar, including Daniel in 606 BC and lasts until 536 BC with Cyrus' reign. Meanwhile the inter-temple period starts and ends twenty years later than this, from 586 BC to the sixth year of Darius (Ezra 6:15) which is 516 BC. So all of this happened and ended before 500 BC. So the only books that had to be written after 500 are Esther, Ezra, Nehemiah and Malachi.
>The biggest ad hoc cope Ports made up when it comes to biblical chronology.
It says four hundred years right in the text though, and it doesn't say plural lands just one land, which is talking about Egypt.
"And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;"
- Genesis 15:13
>It says four hundred years right in the text though
I was talking about supposed silence after Malachi was wirtten, and where most deuterocanonicals were written.
It exist in protestant circles only to discredit deuterocanon. >Genesis 15:13
Canaan was not Abraham's. Or Issac's. Or Jacob's. Or anyone's from thier line until Joshua.
In fact as Paul says in Galatians Ismael persecuted Issac when he was five. 400 years later was Exodus.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Galatians 3:17 says "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect."
This is referring to the confirmation of the covenant, which was given to Jacob in Genesis 46:2-4. This is when the 430 years started, and they were oppressed in a land (singular) and a nation (singular) was judged after 400 years like it says in the earlier prophecy, mentioned already. If the "four generations" of Genesis 15:16 were only in Egypt for 215 years, that isn't enough time for the 400 years to be fulfilled.
Also, it even states that the covenant was confirmed with Jacob in Psalm 105:10, confirming that this is what Paul was talking about.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>This is referring to the confirmation of the covenant, which was given to Jacob
No it does not. Read one verse prior "To Abraham were the promises made and to his seed. He saith not, And to his seeds, as of many: but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ"
Law was 430 years after promise to Abraham.
They were mistreated in land not their own, Canaan, for 215 years, and, and 215 years in Egypt. Mathematics check out. Also, four generations also check out, Moses, his father, his grandfather, and his great grandfather, Levi, all of whose age is recorded and which adds up even in most generous way (people are born in the last year thier father die, Moses grandpa was 0 yo when he was one of 70 original Israelites) adds up only to 350 years.
>In fact as Paul says in Galatians Ismael persecuted Issac when he was five.
What verse?
Gal 4:29 "But as then he, that was born according to the flesh, persecuted him that was after the spirit." The only interaction recorded in Scripture between the two aside from burring their father was the weaning incident that according to israelites was at Issac fidth birthday, aka 30 years after Promise, 400 years till the Law.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Read one verse prior
Yeah, I read it. Now read one verse after that: ""And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul,"
The covenant, that was confirmed before...
>and 215 years in Egypt.
I agree that they spend about 215 years between Abram entering Canaan and Jacob traveling to Egypt, but nowhere does the Bible ever say they spent 215 years in Egypt. You are getting that extra 215 by assuming 430 and subtracting 215 from it. The Bible never directly says they spent 215 years in Egypt, and you can't add numbers to get 215, because that's not what happened: It actually says they spent 430 years in Exodus 12:40 if you look it up.
>Also, four generations also check out, Moses, his father, his grandfather, and his great grandfather, Levi,
You said the 430 years starts with Abraham, not Levi though. Do you now agree (with the Bible) that the 430 years and 4 generations started in the time of Levi?
>all of whose age is recorded and which adds up even in most generous way
You can't add them to get 215. You can't add any ages in the Old Testament to get 215 years in Egypt. The only way you get that is by assuming it started with Abraham and subtract the first 215 years. That's just you assuming the conclusion and reasoning that the remaining time had to be 215, not the Bible saying it anywhere.
Just like with
>In fact as Paul says in Galatians Ismael persecuted Issac when he was five.
What verse?
it never says five years old anywhere, you just assumed it based on the same wrong conclusions rather than proving the conclusion. Sorry anon but that's the facts here, and I've done the homework on this issue extensively.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Yeah, I read it.
Then understand it you dum dum. Do I have to visually break this sentence like in elementary school? >The covenant >>that was confirmed before of God in Christ, > the law
In this sentence the covenant means the law, that's basic fricking grammar. >I agree that they spend about 215 years between Abram entering Canaan and Jacob traveling to Egypt, but nowhere does the Bible ever say they spent 215 years in Egypt.
It does say that. Not in one place but still. It does say that, watch the video I gave you. >You said the 430 years starts with Abraham, not Levi though
And? I said that 430 years they were in Cannan and Egypt. I also said that they shall be in Egypt for four generations. Those are not equivalent. >You can't add them to get 215.
I can. There was 215 years between Promise and the Israel getting to Egypt under Joseph. That leaves 215 years to fit Kokath's 133, Amaram's 137 and Moses' 80 with logical overlap (Kokath was not 0 years old when entering Egypt, noone sired children in the last year of thier death). >Just like with
>In fact as Paul says in Galatians Ismael persecuted Issac when he was five.
What verse? it never says five years old anywhere,
All israeli sources said that weaning happens when one is five.
You only held to 430 years in Egypt becuase cretins that wrote Masoretic droped "and Canaan" from the Exodus quote, even tho LXX, Samaritans, Paul the Apostle, Flavious Josephus, Early Church Fathers, Philo of Alexandia, and anyone that can add 3 digit numbers say that you are wrong.
I fricking hate prots so fricking much, noone in history treat Scripture worse than you.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>In this sentence the covenant means the law
Somebody's never read Galatians 3 >All israeli sources
Read Mark 7 >I fricking hate prots so fricking much
John 15:18
2 years ago
Anonymous
>I also said that they shall be in Egypt for four generations. Those are not equivalent.
Why did you start counting the generations with Levi though? What reason?
>It does say that. Not in one place but still.
It doesn't say it at all. Not in one place. Not by adding any ages either. They never add to 215. You only get it by assuming what you want to prove. But this assumption, of where the 430 years started, is wrong to begin with. You can't use what you are trying to prove as part of the proof. >I also said that they shall be in Egypt for four generations.
Where do you get that? If you get it from Genesis 15 then you agree with me that we're only talking about the time in Egypt and there's no more problem.
If you get the "four generations" somewhere else beside this, then where in the Bible are you getting it?
>There was 215 years between Promise and the Israel getting to Egypt under Joseph. That leaves 215 years
Why did you start counting there instead of Genesis 46:2-4 where the covenant was confirmed though? You just assumed what you are trying to prove!!!
>All israeli sources said that weaning happens when one is five.
That's not in the Bible anywhere.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Also, it's funny how the Egypt timeline with the patriarchs and the flood works out almost perfectly with the full 430 year timeline in Egypt. It places the Flood at around 2601 BC, while Djoser's pyramid, the oldest standing structure in Egypt, dates from near this time. If the flood was 215 years later, it would create a serious problem because under the shorter "215 years in Egypt" timeline, the flood was in the 2300s rather than the 2600s, and Djoser's pyramid would then be built before the flood. Interesting how that works out.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Also, with regards to: >You only held to 430 years in Egypt becuase cretins that wrote Masoretic droped "and Canaan" from the Exodus quote
That's not even true. There are many modern biblicist scholars who use the original Hebrew version and disavow the LXX version, but still try to argue 215 years. For instance, Floyd Nolen Jones does this. His chronology is very in-depth, but it never relies on the LXX reading of Exodus 12:40 to make his case. So I can guarantee to you that your claim here isn't valid.
My main argument wasn't based only on Exodus 12:40, although this is one of the strongest proofs when combined with verse 41. Specifically, if the 430 years *ended* because the "left" Egypt (and started journeying toward Canaan for 40 years) then why would the 430 years *start* with anything except the "entrance" into Egypt in Genesis 46? If the sojourn includes a long time in Canaan *before* entering Egypt, then why exactly did it end when they left Egypt in Exodus 12:40, when they still had 40 more years of wandering in the wilderness to do?
But Exodus 12:40-41 isn't what I based my argument on primarily.
Rather, as I said:
It's somewhat imprecise. Abraham's era was closer to 2250 BC, and he would have been 75 and traveled to Canaan around 2175 BC. This rather than 2000 BC.
Likewise, the temple destruction was in 586 BC, long before 500 BC. The seventy years of servitude began twenty years earlier with the first deportation of captives by Nebuchadnezzar, including Daniel in 606 BC and lasts until 536 BC with Cyrus' reign. Meanwhile the inter-temple period starts and ends twenty years later than this, from 586 BC to the sixth year of Darius (Ezra 6:15) which is 516 BC. So all of this happened and ended before 500 BC. So the only books that had to be written after 500 are Esther, Ezra, Nehemiah and Malachi.
>The biggest ad hoc cope Ports made up when it comes to biblical chronology.
It says four hundred years right in the text though, and it doesn't say plural lands just one land, which is talking about Egypt.
"And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;"
- Genesis 15:13
"It says four hundred years right in the text, and it doesn't say plural lands just one land, which is talking about Egypt." I quote Genesis 15:13. I mention this because the prophecy in Genesis 15 about the 400 years of affliction has to be in a single land - it can't be both Canaan and Egypt according to the plain meaning of the text in Genesis 15. It says "that land" not "those lands" (plural). Also it says "that nation" (singular, i.e. Egypt) not "nations" (plural as in Egypt and Canaan) in Genesis 15:14, which is what I alluded to a second time here
Galatians 3:17 says "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect."
This is referring to the confirmation of the covenant, which was given to Jacob in Genesis 46:2-4. This is when the 430 years started, and they were oppressed in a land (singular) and a nation (singular) was judged after 400 years like it says in the earlier prophecy, mentioned already. If the "four generations" of Genesis 15:16 were only in Egypt for 215 years, that isn't enough time for the 400 years to be fulfilled.
Also, it even states that the covenant was confirmed with Jacob in Psalm 105:10, confirming that this is what Paul was talking about.
So far you haven't been able to explain or even address that point, which shows it was one land and one nation being talked about for 400 years of affliction. And one nation being judged at the end of it. Egypt is judged by the great plagues, not Canaan.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>In fact as Paul says in Galatians Ismael persecuted Issac when he was five.
What verse?
It's somewhat imprecise. Abraham's era was closer to 2250 BC, and he would have been 75 and traveled to Canaan around 2175 BC. This rather than 2000 BC.
Likewise, the temple destruction was in 586 BC, long before 500 BC. The seventy years of servitude began twenty years earlier with the first deportation of captives by Nebuchadnezzar, including Daniel in 606 BC and lasts until 536 BC with Cyrus' reign. Meanwhile the inter-temple period starts and ends twenty years later than this, from 586 BC to the sixth year of Darius (Ezra 6:15) which is 516 BC. So all of this happened and ended before 500 BC. So the only books that had to be written after 500 are Esther, Ezra, Nehemiah and Malachi.
>The biggest ad hoc cope Ports made up when it comes to biblical chronology.
It says four hundred years right in the text though, and it doesn't say plural lands just one land, which is talking about Egypt.
"And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;"
- Genesis 15:13
How could there be 2,000 years between Abraham and Adam? Wasn't he born just 350 years or so after the flood?
You can't read bro
The world was created around 4,000 BC, so this chart puts 2,000 years between Abraham and Adam.
No, it's wron. Let me show you.
1. Stick golden sheckle up ur ass
2. Die of rabbies
3. Repeat eternally
The absolute state of this board.
*jooms*
Shouldn't have stuck a golden sheckle up ur ass, homosexual.
Yeah, that's what happens when antichrist mods refuse to ban antichrist troll spammers.
>400 years gap
The biggest ad hoc cope Ports made up when it comes to biblical chronology. Also, Israelites were in Egypt for 215 years, and only like half of it was slavery.
>Also, Israelites were in Egypt for 215 years
How do you know this if we don't even know if the israelites were ever in Egypt?
From the biblical chronology itself. From the fact that we have ancient witnesses like Josephus, LXX or Paul that said they would be in Canaan and Egypt for 400 years, through the fact that we know genealogy of Moses and it just doesn't add up, and the like. Prots can't read.
>From the fact that we have ancient witnesses like Josephus, LXX or Paul t
This is a circular argument. Exodus was written around 700ish years after the Exodus would have happened according to the biblical chronology, and Josephus and Paul based that belief primarily on the Bible, though Josephus did quote some Egyptian accounts that are even later than Exodus, and were written as polemics against israelites that lived in Egypt in the Hellenistic period. None of this is trustworthy. We have no contemporary sources.
You don't know what circular argument is. This thread is about biblical chronology i.e. chronology presented in the Bible, lack of other evidence be damned.
>It says four hundred years right in the text though
I was talking about supposed silence after Malachi was wirtten, and where most deuterocanonicals were written.
It exist in protestant circles only to discredit deuterocanon.
>Genesis 15:13
Canaan was not Abraham's. Or Issac's. Or Jacob's. Or anyone's from thier line until Joshua.
In fact as Paul says in Galatians Ismael persecuted Issac when he was five. 400 years later was Exodus.
Galatians 3:17 says "And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect."
This is referring to the confirmation of the covenant, which was given to Jacob in Genesis 46:2-4. This is when the 430 years started, and they were oppressed in a land (singular) and a nation (singular) was judged after 400 years like it says in the earlier prophecy, mentioned already. If the "four generations" of Genesis 15:16 were only in Egypt for 215 years, that isn't enough time for the 400 years to be fulfilled.
Also, it even states that the covenant was confirmed with Jacob in Psalm 105:10, confirming that this is what Paul was talking about.
>This is referring to the confirmation of the covenant, which was given to Jacob
No it does not. Read one verse prior "To Abraham were the promises made and to his seed. He saith not, And to his seeds, as of many: but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ"
Law was 430 years after promise to Abraham.
They were mistreated in land not their own, Canaan, for 215 years, and, and 215 years in Egypt. Mathematics check out. Also, four generations also check out, Moses, his father, his grandfather, and his great grandfather, Levi, all of whose age is recorded and which adds up even in most generous way (people are born in the last year thier father die, Moses grandpa was 0 yo when he was one of 70 original Israelites) adds up only to 350 years.
Gal 4:29 "But as then he, that was born according to the flesh, persecuted him that was after the spirit." The only interaction recorded in Scripture between the two aside from burring their father was the weaning incident that according to israelites was at Issac fidth birthday, aka 30 years after Promise, 400 years till the Law.
>Read one verse prior
Yeah, I read it. Now read one verse after that: ""And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul,"
The covenant, that was confirmed before...
>and 215 years in Egypt.
I agree that they spend about 215 years between Abram entering Canaan and Jacob traveling to Egypt, but nowhere does the Bible ever say they spent 215 years in Egypt. You are getting that extra 215 by assuming 430 and subtracting 215 from it. The Bible never directly says they spent 215 years in Egypt, and you can't add numbers to get 215, because that's not what happened: It actually says they spent 430 years in Exodus 12:40 if you look it up.
>Also, four generations also check out, Moses, his father, his grandfather, and his great grandfather, Levi,
You said the 430 years starts with Abraham, not Levi though. Do you now agree (with the Bible) that the 430 years and 4 generations started in the time of Levi?
>all of whose age is recorded and which adds up even in most generous way
You can't add them to get 215. You can't add any ages in the Old Testament to get 215 years in Egypt. The only way you get that is by assuming it started with Abraham and subtract the first 215 years. That's just you assuming the conclusion and reasoning that the remaining time had to be 215, not the Bible saying it anywhere.
Just like with
it never says five years old anywhere, you just assumed it based on the same wrong conclusions rather than proving the conclusion. Sorry anon but that's the facts here, and I've done the homework on this issue extensively.
>Yeah, I read it.
Then understand it you dum dum. Do I have to visually break this sentence like in elementary school?
>The covenant
>>that was confirmed before of God in Christ,
> the law
In this sentence the covenant means the law, that's basic fricking grammar.
>I agree that they spend about 215 years between Abram entering Canaan and Jacob traveling to Egypt, but nowhere does the Bible ever say they spent 215 years in Egypt.
It does say that. Not in one place but still. It does say that, watch the video I gave you.
>You said the 430 years starts with Abraham, not Levi though
And? I said that 430 years they were in Cannan and Egypt. I also said that they shall be in Egypt for four generations. Those are not equivalent.
>You can't add them to get 215.
I can. There was 215 years between Promise and the Israel getting to Egypt under Joseph. That leaves 215 years to fit Kokath's 133, Amaram's 137 and Moses' 80 with logical overlap (Kokath was not 0 years old when entering Egypt, noone sired children in the last year of thier death).
>Just like with
What verse? it never says five years old anywhere,
All israeli sources said that weaning happens when one is five.
You only held to 430 years in Egypt becuase cretins that wrote Masoretic droped "and Canaan" from the Exodus quote, even tho LXX, Samaritans, Paul the Apostle, Flavious Josephus, Early Church Fathers, Philo of Alexandia, and anyone that can add 3 digit numbers say that you are wrong.
I fricking hate prots so fricking much, noone in history treat Scripture worse than you.
>In this sentence the covenant means the law
Somebody's never read Galatians 3
>All israeli sources
Read Mark 7
>I fricking hate prots so fricking much
John 15:18
>I also said that they shall be in Egypt for four generations. Those are not equivalent.
Why did you start counting the generations with Levi though? What reason?
>It does say that. Not in one place but still.
It doesn't say it at all. Not in one place. Not by adding any ages either. They never add to 215. You only get it by assuming what you want to prove. But this assumption, of where the 430 years started, is wrong to begin with. You can't use what you are trying to prove as part of the proof.
>I also said that they shall be in Egypt for four generations.
Where do you get that? If you get it from Genesis 15 then you agree with me that we're only talking about the time in Egypt and there's no more problem.
If you get the "four generations" somewhere else beside this, then where in the Bible are you getting it?
>There was 215 years between Promise and the Israel getting to Egypt under Joseph. That leaves 215 years
Why did you start counting there instead of Genesis 46:2-4 where the covenant was confirmed though? You just assumed what you are trying to prove!!!
>All israeli sources said that weaning happens when one is five.
That's not in the Bible anywhere.
Also, it's funny how the Egypt timeline with the patriarchs and the flood works out almost perfectly with the full 430 year timeline in Egypt. It places the Flood at around 2601 BC, while Djoser's pyramid, the oldest standing structure in Egypt, dates from near this time. If the flood was 215 years later, it would create a serious problem because under the shorter "215 years in Egypt" timeline, the flood was in the 2300s rather than the 2600s, and Djoser's pyramid would then be built before the flood. Interesting how that works out.
Also, with regards to:
>You only held to 430 years in Egypt becuase cretins that wrote Masoretic droped "and Canaan" from the Exodus quote
That's not even true. There are many modern biblicist scholars who use the original Hebrew version and disavow the LXX version, but still try to argue 215 years. For instance, Floyd Nolen Jones does this. His chronology is very in-depth, but it never relies on the LXX reading of Exodus 12:40 to make his case. So I can guarantee to you that your claim here isn't valid.
My main argument wasn't based only on Exodus 12:40, although this is one of the strongest proofs when combined with verse 41. Specifically, if the 430 years *ended* because the "left" Egypt (and started journeying toward Canaan for 40 years) then why would the 430 years *start* with anything except the "entrance" into Egypt in Genesis 46? If the sojourn includes a long time in Canaan *before* entering Egypt, then why exactly did it end when they left Egypt in Exodus 12:40, when they still had 40 more years of wandering in the wilderness to do?
But Exodus 12:40-41 isn't what I based my argument on primarily.
Rather, as I said:
"It says four hundred years right in the text, and it doesn't say plural lands just one land, which is talking about Egypt." I quote Genesis 15:13. I mention this because the prophecy in Genesis 15 about the 400 years of affliction has to be in a single land - it can't be both Canaan and Egypt according to the plain meaning of the text in Genesis 15. It says "that land" not "those lands" (plural). Also it says "that nation" (singular, i.e. Egypt) not "nations" (plural as in Egypt and Canaan) in Genesis 15:14, which is what I alluded to a second time here
So far you haven't been able to explain or even address that point, which shows it was one land and one nation being talked about for 400 years of affliction. And one nation being judged at the end of it. Egypt is judged by the great plagues, not Canaan.
>In fact as Paul says in Galatians Ismael persecuted Issac when he was five.
What verse?
It's somewhat imprecise. Abraham's era was closer to 2250 BC, and he would have been 75 and traveled to Canaan around 2175 BC. This rather than 2000 BC.
Likewise, the temple destruction was in 586 BC, long before 500 BC. The seventy years of servitude began twenty years earlier with the first deportation of captives by Nebuchadnezzar, including Daniel in 606 BC and lasts until 536 BC with Cyrus' reign. Meanwhile the inter-temple period starts and ends twenty years later than this, from 586 BC to the sixth year of Darius (Ezra 6:15) which is 516 BC. So all of this happened and ended before 500 BC. So the only books that had to be written after 500 are Esther, Ezra, Nehemiah and Malachi.
>The biggest ad hoc cope Ports made up when it comes to biblical chronology.
It says four hundred years right in the text though, and it doesn't say plural lands just one land, which is talking about Egypt.
"And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;"
- Genesis 15:13