Well... as our friend le med risalini confirmed with his various spam PCAs, the Romans do not group with the Norse... WOW!
they were Spanish Iberians and bla bla
but I have a more important question than this spam shit;
How Indo-European were the Romans (or italics) culturally and religiously? I noticed that pagans have a tendency to adopt and mix beliefs like traitors.
and your language? I read an article that says Greek is only 30% IE, for example.
let's have a discussion about archaeology, culture and language.
yes, med risalini, we already know that you were superior and bla bla, no one wants to know that anymore.
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People understimate how orientalized greek and later on roman religion and culture were, Aphrodite is literally Astarte for example, she doesnt have an IE origin.
In regards to the italics, they also also took a lot from etruscans.
Their culture was 60/40 IE and etruscan, id say the biggest contributions from the IE to the ancient meds were by order: the language, the religion, the culture
some more examples
Oriental gods adopted by greeks and later on romans:
- Aphrodite
- Serapis
- Isis
- Mithras
- Asclepius (not 100% certain for now)
>Mithra
Mithra is an IE god, one of the oldest we have knowledge of, by the way. It was worshipped by Proto-Indo-Iranians and probably even further back in time. But you are right that it was adopted later by the Romans.
>Serapis
Serapis is a syncretic greek-egyptian god from the Pytolomaic Period, it was the greeks who invented it and then forced down the throat of the egyptians
>Serapis
Semite or native from Egyptian.
>Aphrodite
Entirely of IE origin. Her name, cult, and mythology are entirely IE.
>Serapis
A later syncretic deity.
>Isis
Fair.
>Mithras
Mithras is of IE origin.
>Asclepius
Asclepius was an apotheosized Greek, making him of IE origin.
"Baal" is a generic theonym meaning "Lord" that applies to a wide variety of Middle Eastern deities. It just means "whoever's cult is in charge of [place] at a time". At the time that the Proto-Semitic religion originated they were just leaving Africa and the PIE's ancestor's were even further east. At the time that the Semitic citystate theology was developing the PIE were just about to start heading out of their urheimat. There were practically on opposite ends of the Earth when this was occurring.
>aphrodite not an expy of ishar/isis
really?
she is of Semitic origin.
Not IE.
The same crap as Vestals
>Name
IE origin.
>Cult
IE origin.
>Mythology
IE origin.
No Ishtar or Isis is necessary.
The Vestal Virgins are not of Semitic origin, no. No one thinks this, this is some nonsense you made up.
Sources?
Aphrodite is an archetypal fertility godess derived from *PriHyéh
Semitic
No. Is from the same source as venus. Which btw shares root with "vanir", frigg and freya. Gods of pleasure.
Venus is literally trash from the Near East.
but any, such as afrotrash, are not IE native.
simple.
but it's cool that it shows how Neolithic influence still persisted until the bronze age.
It's quite patrilineal to have a "godnesz" like that.
The idea that Indo-European religion was unique and didn't have parallels in Middle Eastern religion is a flawed starting point. Baal/Hadad was literally the prototype of the Indo-European sky father thunder god.
nobody said that.
but do you know how moronic your argument is?
the sky father and its possible oldest representation, probably came with the Yamnaya or a group similar to them, and I think you know, but Ukraine is not close to Lavante, you know?
Furthermore, the sky father and his whole question of "sky" is linked to the fact that they are shepherds and move around a lot
it was not "the proto-sky father".
but you seem to say that IE religions were extremely close to Middle Eastern things, show us more examples.
Naturally we are talking about paganism, there can (and will) always be parallels with various other peoples, but the real point is the matrix of divinity is the same.
as the other guy mentioned there;
The Romans and Greeks adopted many things not very common in "basal" IE beliefs.
like sex goddess things
the Egyptian horus is not similar to the Indo-European sky father, etc.
After all, it's too complex.
and we don't know anything about PIE
Dyeus-Pater predates Baal, or it's at the very least the same age. Even if the western semitic were worshipping Baal for longer than we thought, they were too far away from the Yammaya to have influenced them meaningfully.
Also, Dyeus-Pater probably came from an even older steppe culture. Steppe cultures tend to worship sky patriarch gods, see Tengri.
Source?
"Steppe cultures tend to worship the patriarch gods of the sky, see Tengri."
More evidence that all this "PIE religion" shit doesn't make sense and is based on Dragon Ball Z level reconstructions.
what I mean to say; There is not a single piece of evidence for this, beyond extremely banal similarities....
we have a Thor in African and Amerindian mythologies... conclusion? "muh iE rootz"
Anyway, as you say, Tengri is proof of the lack of honesty and exaggeration of IE studies.
I went to an indigenous tribe here in Patagonia, and they worshiped an old god who had the power of the sea and rain...
MUH POSAIDON.
Remembering that ALL pagan religions are extremely similar to ridiculous levels, there is no significant difference that you try to use as "IE religion" and "Semitic" or "Egyptian and Indian" and so on.
The fact that the "ie" have expanded from Portugal to China only proves that this is nonsense, too much land mass to have continuity.
>There is not a single piece of evidence for this,
What about the similarities found in every Indo-European language, culture, and religion? We can trace a very clear genetic lineage back to a specific group of people. Those people had a language, a culture, and a religion.
>we have a Thor in African and Amerindian mythologies
No we don't.
>I went to an indigenous tribe here in Patagonia
lmfao did you seriously think that admitting to being some Black-Huastec mystery meat would bolster the credibility of your delusions? Get real Pedro.
<What about the similarities found across all Indo-European languages, cultures and religions? We can trace a very clear genetic lineage back to a specific group of people. These people had a language, a culture and a religion.
What about the similarity between deities in the outside world? Everyone has a kind of mother goddess, a deity of the seas, the sky, fertility. what's your point? again;
tell me how the "IE religion" is unique. Do you realize how much their belief was literally mixed up in the first place? from the yamnaya with vinca to the andronovo with bmac. starting from the premise that there is a single belief.
and not. you can't trace a genetic language, because there never was an ethno-linguistic IE group.
>we have a Thor in African and Amerindian mythologies.
No, we don't.
we have. research "thunder gods" and see how similarities are very common even in Ugandan trash.
>I went to an indigenous tribe here in Patagonia
lmfao, did you seriously think that admitting to being Black-Huasteca mystery meat would increase the credibility of your delusions? Get real Pedro
I'm from Lisbon and my wife is Argentina. your arguments?
"How to Kill a Dragon"
I read a talk about this book in 2018, and you know what's cool? This figure of the dragon or giant reptile is found in shit from Japan to some Amazonian tribes hahahahaha
>pomo deconstructionists is an argensimian
How's Milei working out for you? Surely you'll get the Falklands back under his leadership!
It's based on linguistics, not only on cultural similarities.
>Jupiter (latin)
>Deus (also latin, but a different god concept)
>Zeus (greek)
>Dyeus(aryan)
They all share the same etymological root, and all represent sky patriarch gods.
This couldn't happen only by a common language alone, but also by a common religious concept shared by all of them.
Everyone already knows this.
This is getting away from my main argument again...
You say that IE religion comes from some form of "theological basis", but there are many ramifications.
Zeus is different from his supposedly "Celtic" counterpart in the same way that "Greek Athena" is different from her Germanic counterpart, etc.
Common language does not prove shared basic belief.
and many of the similarities are very basic.
remember how people wrote articles about "IE social structure"?
where it was composed of;
king
priests
warriors
nobles
artisans
agricultural.
well.... this is literally so common in the world that after I read this, I felt moronic for having bought this shit. this "Indo-European" social structure is seen between;
Mesoamerican Indians
middle eastern people
east asia
Some tribes that the bandeirantes, descendants of the Portuguese, met when entering the interior of Brazil had exactly this same social structure, etc.
without mentioning the "warrior vs snake" meme that is seen in Japan, for example, in Africa and even among the Aztecs.
Indo-Europeanism:
"Dude! look at these religious connections! a hero killing a snake!
Very IE!
zeus vs typhon
indra vs vritra
thor vs jormungandr
perun vs veles
Indo-European mythology man! thunder god vs snake n sheit! derived from PIE" bla bla bla
in truth no.
This type of story is so common that it even exists in Japan.
(related photo)
Were the Japs IE? the Amerindians? This is to illustrate what I want to say, that these "continuous similarities" are actually extremely common in the world and are not really evidence of a great PIE religion.
the same with swastikas.
Of course it have some ramifications in theology. See Vedic Hinduism and Zoroastrianism, both born out of literal neighbors inside the Andronovo culture, and yet completely different religions.
But denying they had some godly and folkloric archetypes in common is denying obvious linguistic evidence. What you were doing was simply denying the existence of a IE "sky father" archetype, don't try to move the goalpost. Nobody said the sky father is an IE-exclusive concept, but it just so happen to also encompass many IE cultures.
You lost
>Baal/Hadad was literally the prototype of the Indo-European sky father thunder god.
>the sky father and its possible oldest representation, probably came with the Yamnaya or a group similar to them
>Dyeus-Pater probably came from an even older steppe culture
>What about the similarity between deities in the outside world? Everyone has a kind of mother goddess, a deity of the seas, the sky, fertility
Folkloregay here. The ultimate origin of the "Sky Father" figure is controversial, but it is almost certainly paleolithic and probably has more than 20000 years, judging by the myth of the thunder god slaying the water-seizing dragon in IE cultures, which is simply a retelling of K41 ["Thunder against Snake"] in https://www.mythologydatabase.com/bd/
NTA but thanks, anon
Their culture was 50% EEF and 50% IE
>How Indo-European were the Romans (or italics) culturally and religiously?
Well this heavily depends on your opinion on Etruscans (IE, not IE, etc). However, pre-hellenization(s) italics were pretty indo-european compared to the greeks for the simple fact that they weren't a short sea trip away from the much more advanced Asia. Though it also has to be said they did take a little from the phoenicians (especially the alphabeth).
As for later Rome: Culturally and religiously speaking, late republican to imperial Rome might as well have been the eastern mediterranean, at least the cities/elite culture. They still kept shit like vestals around though.
"late republican to imperial Rome might as well have been the eastern mediterranean"
They are not IE
>How Indo-European were they culturally and religiously
Meme buzzwords
I think he means how close were they to these beliefs
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology
>How close was it to something that we literally don't know anything about and just had to cobble a reconstruction of it together from it and several other things?
>the Romans do not group with the Norse
Yes they do.
>How Indo-European were the Romans (or italics) culturally and religiously?
Very. Dumezil wrote an entire book on this, Archaic Roman Religion. It goes over literally every piece of Latin literature and, at the time, archaeology at the subject. tl;dr they were very Indo-European.
> I noticed that pagans have a tendency to adopt and mix beliefs like traitors.
This is a completely nonsensical statement. The Church Fathers literally seethed over how devoutly the Romans adhered to the dogmas and doctrines of their ethnoreligion
>and your language? I read an article that says Greek is only 30% IE, for example.
Greek is an Indo-European language and displays all of the characteristics of Indo-European languages. The same is true for Latin.
thanks
I will read the book.
Do you have any pdf my friend?
It's on libgen. Some more literature (also on libgen):
The One Eyed God by Kris Kershaw
Lady with the Mead Cup
Beowulf (Tolkien's translation has commentary and discussion of Germanic society)
The Heliand
Culture of the Teutons
Freyr's Offspring
Orpheus, Odin, and the Indo-European Underworld
The Germanization of Early-Medieval Christianity
The Road to Hell
The King and his Cult: the axe-hammer (this is a paper, you can use sci-hub to get it).
The Horse, Wheel, and Language
How To Kill A Dragon
"The Fathers of the Church literally seethed at the devotion with which the Romans adhered to the dogmas and doctrines of their ethnoreligion"
the arrogance of neo-pagans is surreal.
Who talked about Christianity? and the Romans literally took several deities from "outside".
want a perfect example of your muh roman dogmas?
bes. a deity of NUBIAN ORIGIN, which the Egyptians adopted and then the Greeks and Romans.
Great argument, huh?
but your recommendation of the book is good. I've already read it, and my only problem is the author's delayed conclusion that the Romans had more similarities with the Celts than with other Mediterranean beliefs IE