Yes. I'd have to say that this is perhaps the least relatable serious fiction book for women ever written. It checks every single box for being a woman repellantー lengthy intro with philosophizing, self-loathing, and bitterness, an incel-like protag, alienation and isolation, clear schizoid personality, protagonist's issues are essentially only encountered by men, the ending has no major resolution, etc.
If a woman reads this and says she liked it, she's either lying or a troony.
It's different from other incel shit because even Houllebecq is of some interest to women. NftU is of zero interest to women besides being a Dostoevsky novel.
White Nights is the clear Dosto novel where he was aiming at women. Glib romance involving two people who just met and the protag “selflessly” gives up the woman who doesn’t even know him and much less is interested. It is the woman’s choice of Dosto.
Can absolutely confirm this. The girl I’m talking to right now always mentions White Nights. After I mentioned it to her she went to a library and read it again.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Women adore stories about love at first sight and fleeting romances between people who just met and they also love stuff where the man gives up the girl. It is the most womanly book Dosto could have written.
2 months ago
Anonymous
You're not talking to her any longer, right?
2 months ago
Anonymous
I am though I don't have high expectations for the future
2 months ago
Anonymous
I am yeah saw her yesterday and cuddled her and we made sweet love. Women are not any worse than men to me unironically but I still think it’s lulz to make the jokes seen in this thread
I still dont understand why this book is good. I read it after crime and punishment and the underground man seems like a useless sniveling coward even in comparison with raskolnikov, let alone svidragailov. What am I missing
It’s about living your life perpetually filled with hate, scorn and jealousy for people who you perceive to have “wronged you” but which is all in your head. It’s one of the most basic b***h novellas ever.
>The narration by the Underground Man is laden with ideological allusions and complex conversations regarding the political climate of the period. Using his fiction as a weapon of ideological discourse, Dostoevsky challenges the ideologies of his time, mainly nihilism and rational egoism.The novel rejects the rationalist assumptions which underlie Jeremy Bentham's utilitarian social philosophy.
>>>The narration by the Underground Man is laden with ideological allusions and complex conversations regarding the political climate of the period.
so pure atheists mental ramblings
2 months ago
Anonymous
>Dostoyevsky >atheist
Further proof that no one on this board actually reads.
I agree, really disliked this book.
I have a genuine aversion to this "waaaah woe is unto me" tone, whether it's in this book, or the Bell Jar or whatever.
Not bad writing per se but I fricking hate reading about losers wallowing in self-pity. The people who like them are generally just losers who want to see themselves as something more than the sniveling wretched cowards that they are
People who do well in life hate losers because their existence reminds them that their success is mostly owed to pure luck, such as the parents and society they are born to. A tiny fraction is them acting on their opportunities which is what they attribute 100% of their success to. Then they see a loser who took most of the same opportunities of them yet ended up living a vastly inferior life, and they get confused and angry, because it makes them question themselves. To rationalise, they will say that the losers just didn't deal with the opportunities in the 'right' way, and that is why they suffer while these winners are successful because they made the right choices.
In other words, just as losers often externalize their failure, so do successful people like to internalize their success.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Really both come down to not being able to accept one's impotence in the face of fate and chance. The idea of your success having nothing to do with you personally is almost as demoralizing as the idea of misfortune and failure happening to you for reasons entirely outside your control.
The book is following Schiller’s argument in Aesthetic Education on ‘how to satisfy the noble longing of your heart’. Schiller argues that you shouldn’t use your intellect to try to force a morally perfect world, instead create eternal representations that people will inherently recognize as superior to themselves through that sort of specific mixture of humors of coarseness and good sentiment that all people are familiar with > You have given it this direction if by your teaching you raise its thoughts towards the necessary and the eternal; if, by your acts or your creations, you make the necessary and the eternal the object of your leanings. The structure of error and of all that is arbitrary must fall, and it has already fallen, as soon as you are sure that it is tottering. But it is important that it should not only totter in the external but also in the internal man. Cherish triumphant truth in the modest sanctuary of your heart; give it an incarnate form through beauty, that it may not only be in the understanding that does homage to it, but that feeling may lovingly grasp its appearance. And that you may not by any chance take from external reality the model which you yourself ought to furnish, do not venture into its dangerous society before you are assured in your own heart that you have a good escort furnished by ideal nature. Live with your age, but be not its creation; labor for your contemporaries, but do for them what they need, and not what they praise. Without having shared their faults, share their punishment with a noble resignation, and bend under the yoke which they find it as painful to dispense with as to bear. By the constancy with which you will despise their good fortune, you will prove to them that it is not through cowardice that you submit to their sufferings. See them in thought such as they ought to be when you must act upon them; but see them as they are when you are tempted to act for them. Seek to owe their suffrage to their dignity; but to make them happy keep an account of their unworthiness: thus, on the one hand, the nobleness of your heart will kindle theirs, and, on the other, your end will not be reduced to nothingness by their unworthiness. The gravity of your principles will keep them off from you, but in play they will still endure them. Their taste is purer than their heart, and it is by their taste you must lay hold of this suspicious fugitive. In vain will you combat their maxims, in vain will you condemn their actions; but you can try your moulding hand on their leisure. Drive away caprice, frivolity, and coarseness from their pleasures, and you will banish them imperceptibly from their acts, and at length from their feelings. Everywhere that you meet them, surround them with great, noble, and ingenious forms; multiply around them the symbols of perfection, till appearance triumphs over reality, and art over nature.
[...]
The Underground Man is that exact ‘eternal form’ of a man born from a book, without a name or a family, because the crystal palace people wanted to create a world where every aspect of life is given literary substance and intellectual scientific values that you would find in a book. It’s a ‘morally superior’ world, that’s why the Underground Man is obsessed with staying morally pure above everyone. The trick that people miss is that he actually is morally above everyone, it’s not a book about how he’s a ‘bad guy’ or how you shouldn’t be like that, he’s an eternal form of a man born from a book and even just from being a creation and having life he will have more skill and make a better impact
It's more interesting that Dosto actually made a morally perfect character and put him at the bottom of life than the book arguing that you 'shouldn't think yourself better'. All men arrogate themselves and that's what makes life sinful and allows a person to act even if they don't have certainty. It doesn't make sense to try to appeal to that selfishness and beg for intellectual value from it. Create a shadow that commands them according to their own laws that they would be happy to give themselves up to in that created mix of punishment and affection that life always has inherent feeling for
The book is following Schiller’s argument in Aesthetic Education on ‘how to satisfy the noble longing of your heart’. Schiller argues that you shouldn’t use your intellect to try to force a morally perfect world, instead create eternal representations that people will inherently recognize as superior to themselves through that sort of specific mixture of humors of coarseness and good sentiment that all people are familiar with > You have given it this direction if by your teaching you raise its thoughts towards the necessary and the eternal; if, by your acts or your creations, you make the necessary and the eternal the object of your leanings. The structure of error and of all that is arbitrary must fall, and it has already fallen, as soon as you are sure that it is tottering. But it is important that it should not only totter in the external but also in the internal man. Cherish triumphant truth in the modest sanctuary of your heart; give it an incarnate form through beauty, that it may not only be in the understanding that does homage to it, but that feeling may lovingly grasp its appearance. And that you may not by any chance take from external reality the model which you yourself ought to furnish, do not venture into its dangerous society before you are assured in your own heart that you have a good escort furnished by ideal nature. Live with your age, but be not its creation; labor for your contemporaries, but do for them what they need, and not what they praise. Without having shared their faults, share their punishment with a noble resignation, and bend under the yoke which they find it as painful to dispense with as to bear. By the constancy with which you will despise their good fortune, you will prove to them that it is not through cowardice that you submit to their sufferings. See them in thought such as they ought to be when you must act upon them; but see them as they are when you are tempted to act for them. Seek to owe their suffrage to their dignity; but to make them happy keep an account of their unworthiness: thus, on the one hand, the nobleness of your heart will kindle theirs, and, on the other, your end will not be reduced to nothingness by their unworthiness. The gravity of your principles will keep them off from you, but in play they will still endure them. Their taste is purer than their heart, and it is by their taste you must lay hold of this suspicious fugitive. In vain will you combat their maxims, in vain will you condemn their actions; but you can try your moulding hand on their leisure. Drive away caprice, frivolity, and coarseness from their pleasures, and you will banish them imperceptibly from their acts, and at length from their feelings. Everywhere that you meet them, surround them with great, noble, and ingenious forms; multiply around them the symbols of perfection, till appearance triumphs over reality, and art over nature.
The Underground Man is that exact ‘eternal form’ of a man born from a book, without a name or a family, because the crystal palace people wanted to create a world where every aspect of life is given literary substance and intellectual scientific values that you would find in a book. It’s a ‘morally superior’ world, that’s why the Underground Man is obsessed with staying morally pure above everyone. The trick that people miss is that he actually is morally above everyone, it’s not a book about how he’s a ‘bad guy’ or how you shouldn’t be like that, he’s an eternal form of a man born from a book and even just from being a creation and having life he will have more skill and make a better impact
Probably the strangest interpretation of Notes from The Underground I've ever seen.
He's not morally pure at all. He's sniveling, resentful, and ungrateful to his former high school friends.
If you think any of his actions are moral, you've a very skewed sense of morality
But his friends are actually pathetic for following around the rich kid, and Lisa gave herself up to him because she didn’t realize his speech was meant as an insult and the power of it made her compromise herself in the same way. He has to actually be above these people or the book doesn’t make sense because the ironical tension of the whole book is him in reality being below them all. It’s those ironical distinctions of the new Kantian laws and the later Ibsen artistic morality that Dostoyevsky is playing with, "one who makes himself a worm cannot complain afterwards when he is stepped on" the Underground Man is constantly trying to avoid being stepped on. It's all in the difference between morality and a condescended affection that comes from having a name or family also being a point of humiliation. The things that cause people to have affection for each other clashing against the crystal motivations of the palace and the Underground Man himself as the divine encapsulant of the moral law completely below fallen life. It’s that mixture of humors between outside morality, affection, moral aesthetic perfection and the moral law all playing against each other. The Underground Man is above everything, listening to it all through the hole in the street in his underground den, criticizing and explaining everything in exact detail in perfect flourishes 'rotting in his moral superiority'
Probably the strangest interpretation of Notes from The Underground I've ever seen.
He's not morally pure at all. He's sniveling, resentful, and ungrateful to his former high school friends.
If you think any of his actions are moral, you've a very skewed sense of morality
[...]
But his friends are actually pathetic for following around the rich kid, and Lisa gave herself up to him because she didn’t realize his speech was meant as an insult and the power of it made her compromise herself in the same way. He has to actually be above these people or the book doesn’t make sense because the ironical tension of the whole book is him in reality being below them all. It’s those ironical distinctions of the new Kantian laws and the later Ibsen artistic morality that Dostoyevsky is playing with, "one who makes himself a worm cannot complain afterwards when he is stepped on" the Underground Man is constantly trying to avoid being stepped on. It's all in the difference between morality and a condescended affection that comes from having a name or family also being a point of humiliation. The things that cause people to have affection for each other clashing against the crystal motivations of the palace and the Underground Man himself as the divine encapsulant of the moral law completely below fallen life. It’s that mixture of humors between outside morality, affection, moral aesthetic perfection and the moral law all playing against each other. The Underground Man is above everything, listening to it all through the hole in the street in his underground den, criticizing and explaining everything in exact detail in perfect flourishes 'rotting in his moral superiority'
this is from Injured and Insulted and makes it clearer >Natasha was suspicious but pure-hearted and straightforward. Her doubts came from no impure source. She was proud and with a fine pride, and would not endure what she looked upon as higher than anything to be turned into a laughing-stock before her. She would, of course, have met with contempt the contempt of a base man, but at the same time her heart would have ached at mockery of what she thought sacred, whoever had been the mocker. This was not due to any lack of firmness. It arose partly from too limited a knowledge of the world, from being unaccustomed to people from having been shut up in her own little groove. She had spent all her life in her own little corner and had hardly left it. And finally that characteristic of good-natured people, inherited perhaps from her father — the habit of thinking highly of people, of persistently thinking them better that they really are, warmly exaggerating everything good in them — was highly developed in her. It is hard for such people to be disillusioned afterwards; and it is hardest of all when one feels one is oneself to blame. Why did one expect more than could be given? And such a disappointment is always in store for such people. It is best for them to stay quietly in their corners and not to go out into the world; I have noticed, in fact, that they really love their corners so much that they grow shy and unsociable in them. Natasha, however, had suffered many misfortunes, many mortifications, She was already a wounded creature, and she cannot be blamed, if indeed there be any blame in what I have said.
Probably the strangest interpretation of Notes from The Underground I've ever seen.
He's not morally pure at all. He's sniveling, resentful, and ungrateful to his former high school friends.
If you think any of his actions are moral, you've a very skewed sense of morality
The Underground Man is literally a troll, and this book was meant to be a guide from my perspective. Such as the film Taxi Driver or anything related to this book, derives a doomer aesthetic. Maybe this is a warning to young men in our generation.
IMO his argument was flawed. If society had truly 'solved' the human mind, the science would be able to predict the urge to rebel against happiness as well and take measures against that. Otherwise there's still work to be done and you can't call it solved.
>If society had truly 'solved' the human mind, the science would be able to predict the urge to rebel against happiness as well and take measures against that.
But Dosto does address this too though? Or am I misunderstanding you? See below.
>If you say that all this, too, can be calculated and tabulated—chaos and darkness and curses, so that the mere possibility of calculating it all beforehand would stop it all, and reason would reassert itself, then man would purposely go mad in order to be rid of reason and gain his point! I believe in it, I answer for it, for the whole work of man really seems to consist in nothing but proving to himself every minute that he is a man and not a piano-key!
It's kind of funny that in contemporary society being a social outcasted loser and not having sex are construed as the same thing. Anti-social and outcasted men can have sex and well-adjusted and moral men can be sexless. Shocker, I know.
>Notes from Underground
I have a copy of this book in pre-revolution Russian, and it reads so much better than in contemporary Russian. And once again it reinforces a notion that a book is best read in its native language.
>wtf is "pre-revolution Russian"?
Bolsheviks forced a language reform when they took power of the country following the October revolution.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peфopмa_pyccкoй_opфoгpaфии_1918_гoдa
>https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peфopмa_pyccкoй_opфoгpaфии_1918_гoдa
IQfy seems to replace Cyrillic letters, which leads to a 404 when you open this link. This one should work:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%84%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B0_%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%84%D0%B8%D0%B8_1918_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0
im reading this one right now.
its the most difficult piece of D to get through for me.
The first half, amazing. I have read it three times.
The second half? holy shit its been months and im still not half way done with the 2nd half.
idk why but the story isn't grabbing me and keeping me like C&P, Idiot, and TBK.
I find Dostoevsky to be a fricking slog most of the time and I’m quite baffled at his popularity. There are way more enjoyable writers to read out there, even if not as profound
for me what i loved is his dialogue. so many books that ive read have little, or shit dialogue. its very shallow or surface.
he'll have character philosophize and get into problems, extremely deeply. This has been criticized by people but its one reason why i love him.
unfortunately this one aint grabbing me. though i think a large part of that is that i have succumbed to brain rot from indulging in video games, reels, and porn. Reading something like Dost is the antithesis of those activities for me rn
I recently read NFtU and this whole thread was pretty cash. The first half
of the book had a lot of sharp yet rambling analysis of human-nature which culled many readers. I think the underground man had swayed me with his opinions and I had the “literally me” reaction everyone else seems to get. Then I got to the second chapter Dos pretty much says yeah if Underground
Man’s words resonated with you should know that you’re spineless, gay, and a total loser.
I think it was implied that he loved the hooker and she loved him too but he was so twisted it had to end in the worst way possible.
As for women, I had a israeli friend who stole his sick and dying parents money, moved into a mansion in the most rural area possible. He thought that he was intellectually superior to everyone else and also retired for a long while into his own loneliness. One of the girls he dated had the perception to tell him that he was “like the underground man.” I myself brought up the book to women I dated whenever the topic of being better than other people came up. I clapped their cheeks afterwards and got my dad to also read the book.
Why is this board filled with so many competitive men wanting to be better then women? I bet most of you are a bunch of losers that get out performed and stepped on by women daily.
Enjoy your books without making a whole sexist show about it, your vulnerability is showing.
If you are alluding to Dostoevsky’s worst novels, then, indeed, I dislike intensely The Brothers Karamazov and the ghastly Crime and Punishment rigamarole. No, I do not object to soul-searching and self-revelation, but in those books the soul, and the sins, and the sentimentality, and the journalese, hardly warrant the tedious and muddled search. Dostoyevsky’s lack of taste, his monotonous dealings with persons suffering with pre-Freudian complexes, the way he has of wallowing in the tragic misadventures of human dignity – all this is difficult to admire. I do not like this trick his characters have of ”sinning their way to Jesus” or, as a Russian author, Ivan Bunin, put it more bluntly, ”spilling Jesus all over the place." Crime and Punishment’s plot did not seem as incredibly banal in 1866 when the book was written as it does now when noble prostitutes are apt to be received a little cynically by experienced readers. Dostoyevsky never really got over the influence which the European mystery novel and the sentimental novel made upon him. The sentimental influence implied that kind of conflict he liked—placing virtuous people in pathetic situations and then extracting from these situations the last ounce of pathos. Non-Russian readers do not realize two things: that not all Russians love Dostoevsky as much as Americans do, and that most of those Russians who do, venerate him as a mystic and not as an artist. He was a prophet, a claptrap journalist and a slapdash comedian. I admit that some of his scenes, some of his tremendous farcical rows are extraordinarily amusing. But his sensitive murderers and soulful prostitutes are not to be endured for one moment—by this reader anyway. Dostoyevsky seems to have been chosen by the destiny of Russian letters to become Russia’s greatest playwright, but he took the wrong turning and wrote novels.
>Men on Beowulf >An epic of honor, brotherhood, sacrifice, nobility, warriorhood and loss that is as relevant now as it was when it was first spoken
>Women, israelites and those who marry them on Beowulf >Grendel and its mother are the real victim, they literally dindu nuffin, the dragon is also a prophet of wisdom
>he's literally me
what do anons
Yes. I'd have to say that this is perhaps the least relatable serious fiction book for women ever written. It checks every single box for being a woman repellantー lengthy intro with philosophizing, self-loathing, and bitterness, an incel-like protag, alienation and isolation, clear schizoid personality, protagonist's issues are essentially only encountered by men, the ending has no major resolution, etc.
If a woman reads this and says she liked it, she's either lying or a troony.
It's different from other incel shit because even Houllebecq is of some interest to women. NftU is of zero interest to women besides being a Dostoevsky novel.
White Nights is the clear Dosto novel where he was aiming at women. Glib romance involving two people who just met and the protag “selflessly” gives up the woman who doesn’t even know him and much less is interested. It is the woman’s choice of Dosto.
Can absolutely confirm this. The girl I’m talking to right now always mentions White Nights. After I mentioned it to her she went to a library and read it again.
Women adore stories about love at first sight and fleeting romances between people who just met and they also love stuff where the man gives up the girl. It is the most womanly book Dosto could have written.
You're not talking to her any longer, right?
I am though I don't have high expectations for the future
I am yeah saw her yesterday and cuddled her and we made sweet love. Women are not any worse than men to me unironically but I still think it’s lulz to make the jokes seen in this thread
He was replying you me you fraud
You watch your tone with me boy.
Haven't read it but half of those sound like things I'd relate to.
post vagene
Last time I posted nudes on a blue board I got banned for three days.
I still dont understand why this book is good. I read it after crime and punishment and the underground man seems like a useless sniveling coward even in comparison with raskolnikov, let alone svidragailov. What am I missing
It’s about living your life perpetually filled with hate, scorn and jealousy for people who you perceive to have “wronged you” but which is all in your head. It’s one of the most basic b***h novellas ever.
okay thats what I thought. The underground man is more of a loser than holden caufield in my opinon
>The narration by the Underground Man is laden with ideological allusions and complex conversations regarding the political climate of the period. Using his fiction as a weapon of ideological discourse, Dostoevsky challenges the ideologies of his time, mainly nihilism and rational egoism.The novel rejects the rationalist assumptions which underlie Jeremy Bentham's utilitarian social philosophy.
>>>The narration by the Underground Man is laden with ideological allusions and complex conversations regarding the political climate of the period.
so pure atheists mental ramblings
>Dostoyevsky
>atheist
Further proof that no one on this board actually reads.
Notes From Underground was just meh. I didn't like Demons either. Otherwise, Dostoyevsky deserves his renown.
>underground man seems like a useless sniveling coward
that's the point, anon. you read the book correctly.
>What am I missing
a penis
>main character == bad man => book == le bad
kys
I agree, really disliked this book.
I have a genuine aversion to this "waaaah woe is unto me" tone, whether it's in this book, or the Bell Jar or whatever.
Not bad writing per se but I fricking hate reading about losers wallowing in self-pity. The people who like them are generally just losers who want to see themselves as something more than the sniveling wretched cowards that they are
People who do well in life hate losers because their existence reminds them that their success is mostly owed to pure luck, such as the parents and society they are born to. A tiny fraction is them acting on their opportunities which is what they attribute 100% of their success to. Then they see a loser who took most of the same opportunities of them yet ended up living a vastly inferior life, and they get confused and angry, because it makes them question themselves. To rationalise, they will say that the losers just didn't deal with the opportunities in the 'right' way, and that is why they suffer while these winners are successful because they made the right choices.
In other words, just as losers often externalize their failure, so do successful people like to internalize their success.
Really both come down to not being able to accept one's impotence in the face of fate and chance. The idea of your success having nothing to do with you personally is almost as demoralizing as the idea of misfortune and failure happening to you for reasons entirely outside your control.
you just outed yourself foid
The book is following Schiller’s argument in Aesthetic Education on ‘how to satisfy the noble longing of your heart’. Schiller argues that you shouldn’t use your intellect to try to force a morally perfect world, instead create eternal representations that people will inherently recognize as superior to themselves through that sort of specific mixture of humors of coarseness and good sentiment that all people are familiar with
> You have given it this direction if by your teaching you raise its thoughts towards the necessary and the eternal; if, by your acts or your creations, you make the necessary and the eternal the object of your leanings. The structure of error and of all that is arbitrary must fall, and it has already fallen, as soon as you are sure that it is tottering. But it is important that it should not only totter in the external but also in the internal man. Cherish triumphant truth in the modest sanctuary of your heart; give it an incarnate form through beauty, that it may not only be in the understanding that does homage to it, but that feeling may lovingly grasp its appearance. And that you may not by any chance take from external reality the model which you yourself ought to furnish, do not venture into its dangerous society before you are assured in your own heart that you have a good escort furnished by ideal nature. Live with your age, but be not its creation; labor for your contemporaries, but do for them what they need, and not what they praise. Without having shared their faults, share their punishment with a noble resignation, and bend under the yoke which they find it as painful to dispense with as to bear. By the constancy with which you will despise their good fortune, you will prove to them that it is not through cowardice that you submit to their sufferings. See them in thought such as they ought to be when you must act upon them; but see them as they are when you are tempted to act for them. Seek to owe their suffrage to their dignity; but to make them happy keep an account of their unworthiness: thus, on the one hand, the nobleness of your heart will kindle theirs, and, on the other, your end will not be reduced to nothingness by their unworthiness. The gravity of your principles will keep them off from you, but in play they will still endure them. Their taste is purer than their heart, and it is by their taste you must lay hold of this suspicious fugitive. In vain will you combat their maxims, in vain will you condemn their actions; but you can try your moulding hand on their leisure. Drive away caprice, frivolity, and coarseness from their pleasures, and you will banish them imperceptibly from their acts, and at length from their feelings. Everywhere that you meet them, surround them with great, noble, and ingenious forms; multiply around them the symbols of perfection, till appearance triumphs over reality, and art over nature.
It's more interesting that Dosto actually made a morally perfect character and put him at the bottom of life than the book arguing that you 'shouldn't think yourself better'. All men arrogate themselves and that's what makes life sinful and allows a person to act even if they don't have certainty. It doesn't make sense to try to appeal to that selfishness and beg for intellectual value from it. Create a shadow that commands them according to their own laws that they would be happy to give themselves up to in that created mix of punishment and affection that life always has inherent feeling for
The Underground Man is that exact ‘eternal form’ of a man born from a book, without a name or a family, because the crystal palace people wanted to create a world where every aspect of life is given literary substance and intellectual scientific values that you would find in a book. It’s a ‘morally superior’ world, that’s why the Underground Man is obsessed with staying morally pure above everyone. The trick that people miss is that he actually is morally above everyone, it’s not a book about how he’s a ‘bad guy’ or how you shouldn’t be like that, he’s an eternal form of a man born from a book and even just from being a creation and having life he will have more skill and make a better impact
How is he morally pure? He degrades the woman at the end by attempting to pay her for sex. Is that not moral corruption? Purposeful humiliation?
I'm guessing anon means that he had pure morals, but that didn't change too much his actual actionsー he wasn't a set of piano keys.
But his friends are actually pathetic for following around the rich kid, and Lisa gave herself up to him because she didn’t realize his speech was meant as an insult and the power of it made her compromise herself in the same way. He has to actually be above these people or the book doesn’t make sense because the ironical tension of the whole book is him in reality being below them all. It’s those ironical distinctions of the new Kantian laws and the later Ibsen artistic morality that Dostoyevsky is playing with, "one who makes himself a worm cannot complain afterwards when he is stepped on" the Underground Man is constantly trying to avoid being stepped on. It's all in the difference between morality and a condescended affection that comes from having a name or family also being a point of humiliation. The things that cause people to have affection for each other clashing against the crystal motivations of the palace and the Underground Man himself as the divine encapsulant of the moral law completely below fallen life. It’s that mixture of humors between outside morality, affection, moral aesthetic perfection and the moral law all playing against each other. The Underground Man is above everything, listening to it all through the hole in the street in his underground den, criticizing and explaining everything in exact detail in perfect flourishes 'rotting in his moral superiority'
this is from Injured and Insulted and makes it clearer
>Natasha was suspicious but pure-hearted and straightforward. Her doubts came from no impure source. She was proud and with a fine pride, and would not endure what she looked upon as higher than anything to be turned into a laughing-stock before her. She would, of course, have met with contempt the contempt of a base man, but at the same time her heart would have ached at mockery of what she thought sacred, whoever had been the mocker. This was not due to any lack of firmness. It arose partly from too limited a knowledge of the world, from being unaccustomed to people from having been shut up in her own little groove. She had spent all her life in her own little corner and had hardly left it. And finally that characteristic of good-natured people, inherited perhaps from her father — the habit of thinking highly of people, of persistently thinking them better that they really are, warmly exaggerating everything good in them — was highly developed in her. It is hard for such people to be disillusioned afterwards; and it is hardest of all when one feels one is oneself to blame. Why did one expect more than could be given? And such a disappointment is always in store for such people. It is best for them to stay quietly in their corners and not to go out into the world; I have noticed, in fact, that they really love their corners so much that they grow shy and unsociable in them. Natasha, however, had suffered many misfortunes, many mortifications, She was already a wounded creature, and she cannot be blamed, if indeed there be any blame in what I have said.
Probably the strangest interpretation of Notes from The Underground I've ever seen.
He's not morally pure at all. He's sniveling, resentful, and ungrateful to his former high school friends.
If you think any of his actions are moral, you've a very skewed sense of morality
The Underground Man is literally a troll, and this book was meant to be a guide from my perspective. Such as the film Taxi Driver or anything related to this book, derives a doomer aesthetic. Maybe this is a warning to young men in our generation.
You have to have been a 16 year old boy at one point to understand this one
Women's rights was unironically the mistake of the millennium
NEETzsche btfo
um ew i feel unsafe
Any literature really
What do you guys think of Dostoyevsky's defence of Free Will in Part 1?
IMO his argument was flawed. If society had truly 'solved' the human mind, the science would be able to predict the urge to rebel against happiness as well and take measures against that. Otherwise there's still work to be done and you can't call it solved.
>If society had truly 'solved' the human mind, the science would be able to predict the urge to rebel against happiness as well and take measures against that.
But Dosto does address this too though? Or am I misunderstanding you? See below.
>If you say that all this, too, can be calculated and tabulated—chaos and darkness and curses, so that the mere possibility of calculating it all beforehand would stop it all, and reason would reassert itself, then man would purposely go mad in order to be rid of reason and gain his point! I believe in it, I answer for it, for the whole work of man really seems to consist in nothing but proving to himself every minute that he is a man and not a piano-key!
I must've missed that part. Still, doctors would just find a way of tricking the guy into thinking he isn't being played like a piano key.
Incel thread.
>women don't literature
>muh incel
Trust me bro, I slay puss and I still consider women inferior.
incel website, moron
incel world
And by world I mean universe, and by universe I include possible multiverse, so I win
dude 19th century russian literature is like so incel
It's kind of funny that in contemporary society being a social outcasted loser and not having sex are construed as the same thing. Anti-social and outcasted men can have sex and well-adjusted and moral men can be sexless. Shocker, I know.
That's right motherfricker
>Notes from Underground
I have a copy of this book in pre-revolution Russian, and it reads so much better than in contemporary Russian. And once again it reinforces a notion that a book is best read in its native language.
wtf is "pre-revolution Russian"?
>wtf is "pre-revolution Russian"?
Bolsheviks forced a language reform when they took power of the country following the October revolution.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peфopмa_pyccкoй_opфoгpaфии_1918_гoдa
>https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peфopмa_pyccкoй_opфoгpaфии_1918_гoдa
IQfy seems to replace Cyrillic letters, which leads to a 404 when you open this link. This one should work:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%B5%D1%84%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B0_%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%84%D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%84%D0%B8%D0%B8_1918_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B0
Look up 1 star reviews on Notes from the Underground on Goodreads.
Women are repulsed by it.
And Arabs for some reason.
It's hilarious.
Why do they hate it?
kek
frick, looks like it's over
>sharing Pepe memes
how does she know
She knows…
Her ex-boyfriend left her for IQfy
>main character was a loser, I must award this book 1 star
why are people like this allowed to give stars, how do we take the stars from them
>Stacey is repulsed by hypothetical chud
kek
I know women find me repulsive on a conceptual level.
I feel that it could be a fun game, searching for women 1 star reviews the anons try to guess what book.
Forgot pic
Starship Troopers?
Yup
I don't think Jenny would like The Forever War either
im reading this one right now.
its the most difficult piece of D to get through for me.
The first half, amazing. I have read it three times.
The second half? holy shit its been months and im still not half way done with the 2nd half.
idk why but the story isn't grabbing me and keeping me like C&P, Idiot, and TBK.
I find Dostoevsky to be a fricking slog most of the time and I’m quite baffled at his popularity. There are way more enjoyable writers to read out there, even if not as profound
for me what i loved is his dialogue. so many books that ive read have little, or shit dialogue. its very shallow or surface.
he'll have character philosophize and get into problems, extremely deeply. This has been criticized by people but its one reason why i love him.
unfortunately this one aint grabbing me. though i think a large part of that is that i have succumbed to brain rot from indulging in video games, reels, and porn. Reading something like Dost is the antithesis of those activities for me rn
his dialogue is simply kino
You might be confused, because women don't understand literature in general.
I recently read NFtU and this whole thread was pretty cash. The first half
of the book had a lot of sharp yet rambling analysis of human-nature which culled many readers. I think the underground man had swayed me with his opinions and I had the “literally me” reaction everyone else seems to get. Then I got to the second chapter Dos pretty much says yeah if Underground
Man’s words resonated with you should know that you’re spineless, gay, and a total loser.
I think it was implied that he loved the hooker and she loved him too but he was so twisted it had to end in the worst way possible.
As for women, I had a israeli friend who stole his sick and dying parents money, moved into a mansion in the most rural area possible. He thought that he was intellectually superior to everyone else and also retired for a long while into his own loneliness. One of the girls he dated had the perception to tell him that he was “like the underground man.” I myself brought up the book to women I dated whenever the topic of being better than other people came up. I clapped their cheeks afterwards and got my dad to also read the book.
Just lol if you don’t try being an insect.
>has sex and friends
You're not insect level yet. You are still above ground. Get on my level
Believe me I have tried to be, but I can’t be anything at all.
Why is this board filled with so many competitive men wanting to be better then women? I bet most of you are a bunch of losers that get out performed and stepped on by women daily.
Enjoy your books without making a whole sexist show about it, your vulnerability is showing.
Imagine larping as a woman just to farm (you)s
Women live rent free in your brain 24/7
yes and they are all nude
Nice
Also, if you misogynist piece of shits like this read the The Magic Mountain. Similar vibes and very good.
It just accrued to me. Maybe most guys hate women because they grew up with a porn addiction and women irl are not that easy.
>accrued
lol, ESL
>a porn addiction and women irl are not that easy
Worse, they are easier and not as edifying
>and not as edifying
Maybe you should try sleeping with a man. You might just be gay, if women are not your thing.
If you are alluding to Dostoevsky’s worst novels, then, indeed, I dislike intensely The Brothers Karamazov and the ghastly Crime and Punishment rigamarole. No, I do not object to soul-searching and self-revelation, but in those books the soul, and the sins, and the sentimentality, and the journalese, hardly warrant the tedious and muddled search. Dostoyevsky’s lack of taste, his monotonous dealings with persons suffering with pre-Freudian complexes, the way he has of wallowing in the tragic misadventures of human dignity – all this is difficult to admire. I do not like this trick his characters have of ”sinning their way to Jesus” or, as a Russian author, Ivan Bunin, put it more bluntly, ”spilling Jesus all over the place." Crime and Punishment’s plot did not seem as incredibly banal in 1866 when the book was written as it does now when noble prostitutes are apt to be received a little cynically by experienced readers. Dostoyevsky never really got over the influence which the European mystery novel and the sentimental novel made upon him. The sentimental influence implied that kind of conflict he liked—placing virtuous people in pathetic situations and then extracting from these situations the last ounce of pathos. Non-Russian readers do not realize two things: that not all Russians love Dostoevsky as much as Americans do, and that most of those Russians who do, venerate him as a mystic and not as an artist. He was a prophet, a claptrap journalist and a slapdash comedian. I admit that some of his scenes, some of his tremendous farcical rows are extraordinarily amusing. But his sensitive murderers and soulful prostitutes are not to be endured for one moment—by this reader anyway. Dostoyevsky seems to have been chosen by the destiny of Russian letters to become Russia’s greatest playwright, but he took the wrong turning and wrote novels.
Nice Nabokov copypasta
>Men on Beowulf
>An epic of honor, brotherhood, sacrifice, nobility, warriorhood and loss that is as relevant now as it was when it was first spoken
>Women, israelites and those who marry them on Beowulf
>Grendel and its mother are the real victim, they literally dindu nuffin, the dragon is also a prophet of wisdom
How to take personal responsibility for your manipulative behavior vol 304
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