People without religion and without orientation toward divine and transcendent things are drawn downward into their biological and then material natures and finally start to become servants of non-being, chaos, or entropy itself. It starts out small, they are merely detrimental to form and essence at first because of their indifference to it, but without fail, any person or culture that spends long enough without religion will become actively anti-form, anti-essence which also means anti-good, anti-beauty, and they will go around trying to destroy anything great or lovely.
It just sucks that her objectively worse translations are going to be taught in schools and it kinda sucks knowing kids probably won’t like Homer as much when they first read him. I know the expectation on this board is to be cynically dismissive about every small thing, and just accept that “it is what it is”, but I do feel bad for kids knowing that literature is only going to continue to be less relevant as the years pass and they may never really get the beauty of Homer. I hope I’m just assuming too much though I haven’t read her translations in full just terribly disappointing excerpts
You were never going to be able to fix what is wrong with the current situation in the West by having slightly better Homer translations. Consider this: people in the 60s and 70s were more conscious of this problem and more willing to fight it, and they had infinitely more access to great culture. And they still ended up creating the world we live in now.
You can't fight it just by "maintaining standards" in some vague way. You need to have a state founded on ideal principles, with a highly virtuous citizenry and a highly virtuous elite at the top. You don't get that kind of virtue through soft "incentives" or better "training," you get it by motivating people to sacrifice their lives for their nation. The reason we don't have any more Theodor Mommsens but a slew of Emily Wilsons isn't that Mommsen had access to better Homer translations, it's that he was taught Greek and Latin from birth by a state that demanded excellence of everyone.
since when do schools have the money to get new fancy editions anyway? The Wilson books are expensive as frick compared to the older, more established translations the cheap paperback publishers like Oxford, Wordsworth or Penguin use.
I’m talking in 50-100 years when the one world government is fully implemented and all good is made in a lab by bugs and we live in literal pods and it’s literally a neo liberal space faring civilization with whites subjugated and/or extinct
you have no idea how few kids actually read anything at all anymore nonetheless Homer or any fundamental classics. I'm 31 and have never met another millennial irl who has read C&P, War & Peace, anything. The only people who read anymore are women who read schlock genre murder mysteries. I have a friend working at a local university who says the state of literature/English/any high arts majors is worse than you can possibly imagine (now I'm recalling that article of the deluded lit professor claiming better call saul and other netflix specials are actually just as good as reading the classics)
kids on the other hand... zoomers are an entirely new animal. their attention spans are completely fried due to parental neglect and free access to multi hour long binge tik-tok sessions. zoomers have abandoned their humanity in many ways whether you consider it willingly or due to the predatory nature of the modern world. regardless their nature is something new, not in harmony with but adjacent to healthy human nature
Basically Zuckerman's, israeli, sister started an entire NGO that sought to disconnect all classical sources of European literature from Europeans males and place it firmly in to a progressive/democratic base where it can be weaponized to prevent pride in your ethnic history.
They rightly understand that when Westerners behave in ways they don’t like it largely comes with Westerners drawing from Classical and/or Biblical roots. The key for us will be recognizing that we in reality our men from the Gothic Age, and not the Roman nor Greek.
>The key for us will be recognizing that we in reality our men from the Gothic Age
I am as hostile to chrisrian theology as i am to israeli secularism. I am neither from the Classical or Magian age but the Faustian. As are you. Look forward for new means to establish an age, not backwards. New values and a worldview aare needed, not archaic old ones from the past.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>israeli >secularism
Pretty moronic take honestly. Even "atheist" israelites aren't actually secular materialists.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Then you’re hostile to yourself because you could never not be deeply Christian no matter how badly you wanted it.
8 months ago
Anonymous
As i said, Faustian man is us and we are witnessing the end of our Culture. I deplore efforts to find a means to transpose dead ethics and world-view in to what i hope will be a new and greater Culture.
Faustian makes no sense without Catholicism. Spengler says this explicitly. You didn’t know that because you are a pseud and didn’t read the book.
Literal deal with the Mephistopheles, Western Man's yearning for the beyond and what is out of his reach. Having contempt for one thing being taken out of its place does not equate to having hate for it in its proper place. The Faustian Culture-Man is in decline, let it go so in peace as the other 7 High Cultueres have. Do not drag up its bones and try and force life in to it.
e can not appreciate Western Literature without knowing the bible, you assume i hate it all, i do not. Just the repeater and doomed attempt to prolong its life.
8 months ago
Anonymous
It's the end of this cycle. But in many ways even that isn't the end. All great epochs are acts of reconstruction, reconcilling the past with the present. We live in an era of decay, but that by its nature will give way to something truly alive in time. What matters most is realizing that quickly enough to define the future.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Without a firm, authoritarian focus on ethno-centrism nothing else matters. Cultures, even high-cultures that Spengler described, are defined entirely by two things; what is not included and what is excluded. If all manner of Africans, Asians and Arabs are allowed to be inside Europe/West nothing will ever rise from it again. Without addressing this, nothing else can be done.
8 months ago
Anonymous
You didn’t read the book lol either the Bible or DotW
8 months ago
Anonymous
Undergang ist zwei bucher.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Faustian makes no sense without Catholicism. Spengler says this explicitly. You didn’t know that because you are a pseud and didn’t read the book.
You're not Greek. This history doesn't belong to you any more than to every person on earth. If the ancient Greeks saw you they would think you were a mindless Northern savage, not one of their own.
There is classic lit belonging to every nation of Europe, much of it tracing heritage to Greece, either through Rome or directly, your denial of this reveals you as a devious, hook-nosed israelite.
8 months ago
Anonymous
I didn't deny there was classic lit in different nations. I denied you were a Greek and that Greek history belonged to you somehow.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>history doesn’t belong to you
Agreed.
History belongs to no one.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Correct. So you can't be proud of something that isn't yours
8 months ago
Anonymous
I agree with this poster. We whites have nothing to be proud of and we can't improve our own traditions by looking at the traditions of others. We need to start from scratch.
Not to mention, Greece as a political entity didn't exist back then. So technically, noone can be proud of that history. Sad I know.
8 months ago
Anonymous
8 months ago
Anonymous
Find me someone who reads history out of pride and isn’t moronic?
8 months ago
Anonymous
I agree with you. Whites should be fully atomized and deracinated from everything that they could possibly feel connected to but for their material goystuff possessions and any and all forms of masturbatorial escapism. In order to help whites achieve this enlightened state we will use the tools that Europeans invented and created. Once we achieve this monumental uprooting and resetting, everyone will be equal in physical and spiritual squalor, for evermore, ruled over by “God’s” (Satan’s) chosen inbred self-worshipping psychopaths.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Nowhere was it claimed i was Greek and true history belongs to nobody. But the fruits of that history belong to that ethnic group who decends from it.
>If the ancient Greeks saw you they would think you were a mindless Northern savage, not one of their own.
If you looked fricking Swedish, maybe. Achilles had blonde hair. There is no reason to say that ancient Greeks weren’t white.
8 months ago
Anonymous
The Greeks could easily tan and Achilles's hair was light brown or dirty blond. The Greeks made it very clear Northerners (whites) looked and acted different. They mentioned how Northern hair and skin was lighter than their own. While they were Caucasian, a Germanic or an Anglo (whites) would seem foreign to them.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>"And this is why Homer is actually a feminist btw"
8 months ago
Anonymous
If you have blonde hair, you are white.
8 months ago
Anonymous
ok
8 months ago
Anonymous
That’s not even the same species
8 months ago
Anonymous
The Greeks could easily tan and Achilles's hair was light brown or dirty blond. The Greeks made it very clear Northerners (whites) looked and acted different. They mentioned how Northern hair and skin was lighter than their own. While they were Caucasian, a Germanic or an Anglo (whites) would seem foreign to them.
Wild how Ancient Greeks statues don't resemble modern Greeks and instead reflect North-Western Europeans.
8 months ago
Anonymous
moronic snowBlack person. You will never be Greek.
The glorious future where left wing utopia manifested after we beat all the mean racists and legalized black votes and gay marriage never materialized. They couldn’t get the square peg into the round hole. The only thing left to do to achieve that utopian vision is to change the shape of the hole. That means black people aren’t doing something wrong, the culture is just racist. That means women aren’t bad writers, we’ve just misinterpreted our classical influence. The point is to lie about history in order to retool the culture. The two pillars of Western culture are the Classics and the Bible. If you can convince the public that those are feminist and anti-racist, then you’ll make the culture feminist and anti-racist (and get yourself a nice tenure-track job along the way.
I don't think there's an elaborate conspiracy here. A lot of teenage girls get into Greek mythology through young adult fiction and then pursue classics as adults, and they think feminist/queer readings of things are awesome.
>greek mythology is probably the most popular mythology around the world >series like Percy Jackson and writers like Neil Gaiman made greek myth popular and trendy again in the 00s >it sits right on the edge between mass appeal and sophistication, attracting pseuds and people with an agenda >regietheater being a thing, and an extremely popular one at that
totalitarian worldviews more generally need to reinterpret narratives and all sorts of devices of previous systems within their own mythopoietic language, unless they are allowed to simply destroy said heterodox elements, which is easy in a way if the target is small, but needs more sophistication if the cons of attempting cancellation are too big
I know I'm gonna attract the butthurt of christbugs but you can even see this in antiquity, some things could be destroyed e.g the random rural temple, others e.g the history of Rome could only be re-interpreted and re-casted within the new revelation. We aren't dealing with anything much different; in this case, the authors in questions e.g the Greeks are too big to simply be cancelled, so linguistic-interpretative sanitation is the only option
Stop using spooked words like totalitarian. Every ideology reinterprets the past in accordance with their views, it's not a "totalitarian" thing to do so.
Current zeitgeist is about the self, anon. Everything is exalted through the lens of what the 'self' produces when exposed to things. So, everything simply *has* to be converted to what the self identifies it as.
Gender, literature classics, movies, songs, culture, everything has to be painted with the colors of how the self sees it, no matter what it looks like. The mere act of vomiting whatever comes out of said self is the ultimate form of 'self-expression', no matter how good that self-expression might be. In short, it's about expressing itself and getting it out there, 'letting the world know who I am', and that's where thought ends, because we've already moved the moment it's out, damn the consequences of whatever the acidity of said vomit did to the environment it was deposited in.
The author of that review is some asiaticoid halfbreed, the kind that takes great joy in juxtaposing "My name is Harpinder Abtar" and "I am English" as if it's a radical act because they live their entire life in bitterness against whitey
It's fitting that one of these unfortunate golems reviews such a shitty unasked for book by a c**t who doesn't respect Homer. I hope all these people gravitate toward each other in their misery and form a big ball that we can then roll into an active volcano
Given that she was born into money and a lineage of literary studies it doesn‘t seem any more thought or effort went into this than opting for which era she most wished to corrupt.
>balances the epic and everyday >OMMGGGGGG IS THAT THE HECKING EVERYDAY THE QUOTIDIAN THE COMMONPLACE THE MUNDANE THE UNREMARKABLE THE ROUTINE THE DAILY THE ORDINARY GAAAAHHHDDDD I AM LOSING MY MIND I AM SO QUIRKY FOR OVER-INTELLECTUALIZING THE EVERYDAY AHHHHH
>Erm... what the freaking WEST? This Iliad translation doesn't have any kitschy roman bust fashwave aesthetics, they don't even reference kekistan? I'm going to fantasize about cutting my penis off and project it on the author and their readers!!
why do you people always come up with this utterly nonsensical shit when you try to insult someone who you perceive to be your political enemy? People who criticize the Wilson translation for being inaccurate certainly donn't want to read the iliad through the lense of a politically motivated right winger either. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
I've read her Odyssey translations and it was fine. Runs along in a clean iambic pentameter and doesn't try and disguise it's shortcomings in any pseudo heroic tone.
It's as good as any modern translation as we are likely to get and I will unironically check out her new book.
People here (but not just here) like the oldy wordy sound and believe preferring it makes them a sophisticated appreciator of the classics, when in reality of course it just shows a complete ignorance of both Greek and English.
For what it's worth I've not read her translation so perhaps it's dreadful. I don't know. What I do know is people here have awfu and predictable taste in poetry.
I don't have a classics degree but I did learn Latin and a bit of Greek in school. And chose to specialize in Russian at uni.
My point is not that I am more of an expert than anyone else but that translations are always subject to their times. As the other poster said, Pope liberally added and removed bits to match the sensibilities of the augustan age and the classical flavor of the times.
Which took their cue partly from Ovid and Virgil, but more from the bucolic bits of Shakespeare. While the Fitzgerald translation is stuffed with bizarre anachronisms that would stand out even today.
The amount of people here that worship at the alter of Pound, and yet the man didn't so much translate as a interpret other poets.
that's not even true though. The issue with the Wilson version isn't her more simplistic writing, but that she intentionally frames things very differently from how they were intended in the original text. She herself stated that her goal was to translate Homer through a modern feminist lense and to take away the focus from Odysseus and bring out the women in the story. That is not a goal any good translator should ever have, to change the original text in such major ways.
The loeb classical library isnt going anywhere, read that if you want but surely all translations are done for their time. Just look at all the stuff Pope left out/ added.
8 months ago
Anonymous
but Pope is rightfully heavily criticized these days for his inaccuracies and for giving these texts his own, very overpowering voice. Wilson however seems to be mostly praised for doing that.
8 months ago
Anonymous
He will just keep backtracking and moving the goalposts. Good luck if you attempt further convo with xir though.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Oh sure Pope was criticized back then as well, but few people claim that it's a bad translation just that it's not accurate. There are scholarly additions you can buy, but they don't exactly make for good reading.
It's worth noting the pope was often praised for preserving the flow of the oral tradition, rather than keeping to iron cast readings of the text.
>she intentionally frames things very differently from how they were intended in the original text
How do you know what the original intention was? Did you dig up Homer and ask him? All you have to go on to determine intention are other interpretations based on more interpretations.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Uhmmm have you axed him that question yourself sweaty >Ughh white moids and their thinking they have the correct interpretation
Sappho was heterosexual too
You clearly have never read her translation of The Odyssey. Odysseus is still the focus, Emily Wilson just expands the female characters' personalities and adds details on why the female characters make the decisions they do. My biggest complaint, whether that be Homers fault or Fitzgerald (my firs introduction to the Odyssey), was how weak the female character were as characters. Mostly on Penelope's character was sad, faithful wife, and Athena being a very helpful but overall brash sometimes dumb God. Very one note, barely expressing humanity.
With Emily Wilson's translation, I got a lot more character out of these two characters especially, Athena was more clearly defined as one of the most noble and helpful Gods expressing traits that were popular for Athenian society. Which makes sense she's one of the only Gods to help Odysseus in his noble quest to come back home and get revenge, she shouldn't be expressed in a insulting way even if that was how Greek society viewed women back then. Wilson also hammered hard on how bad Penelopes suffering was but her having the strength to carry on. The same can also be said for Circe who becomes less of an evil b***h but more of a trickster who is compelled to help after she is out tricked by Odysseus and Athena. Calypso is pretty much the same, just that she's more sad and empathetic that her forced relationship with Odysseus is over, but she still helps once a more noble God says she must obey. In terms of how characters are portrayed, Wilsons is way better. It gets rid of one of the only weak elements of The Odyssey and makes it actually compelling.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Athena was more clearly defined as one of the most noble and helpful Gods
She punished Medusa for the sin of getting raped, and turned Arachne into a spider because she was arrogant.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Even with those horrible actions, she's still one if the most honorable Gods
8 months ago
Anonymous
>she's still one if the most honorable Gods
Not really. She was a selfish b***h, no different than Hera. Dionysus and Hercules were the only good Greek gods.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Hercules tossed a man off of a cliff in drunken stupor. It is why he had to be a slave in Lydia.
8 months ago
Anonymous
I said "good", not "perfect".
8 months ago
Anonymous
Is it a normal thing for """translations""" to not actually just translate texts and outright add bullshit in that's not in the original?
8 months ago
Anonymous
Reasonably, yes.
Or at least it's extremely common.
You'd be horrified to know what the anglo's have done to Dante.
8 months ago
Anonymous
"Traduttore traditore"-Dante
8 months ago
Anonymous
Wait, I'm not sure Dante said that now.
8 months ago
Anonymous
Translations can never be a perfect replica of the original. Plus, I dont mind very different translations unless it's super drastic that it makes the text worse. Wilsons doesn't add anything plot wise that makes the text worse. It argubly adds a lot more depth.
The complaints for her Odysseus translation are absurd, too. How is old Anglo-Saxon language more "authentic" than our modern-day english style. I get liking one translation better than the other, but it's pure stupidity to think one is more "authentically" accurate than another just because ones old and the other one is new.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>The complaints for her Odysseus translation are absurd, too. How is old Anglo-Saxon language more "authentic" than our modern-day english style. I get liking one translation better than the other, but it's pure stupidity to think one is more "authentically" accurate than another just because ones old and the other one is new.
Well, I personally don't like Pope's either. I hate later affectations of Early Modern English. I like them within their own time (Shakespeare, the King James Bible, etc), but it's usually full of too much flourish in later periods. Sounding olde timey isn't always good.
I prefer translations that are as word for word as possible, sans foreign syntax and sentence structure. Even if an idiom is odd, I'd prefer it and just have the explanation in a footnote.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>It argubly adds a lot more depth
No. It's too sparse and too unfaithful, and the things she elides and the things she injects are unwelcome, trampling intrusions, not 'added depth'.
Return to reddit.
>For what it's worth I've not read her translation so perhaps it's dreadful.
I've actually read her translation cover to cover, since I had it assigned for a class. My issue with it was that, when comparing it to older translations, I found that stuff was left out. Something like half of the context and dialogue of the Phaeacians realizing their boat had been sunk on the way back from Ithaca was cut. Her translation reads fine, but she sacrifices a lot to make the book more palatable to people who aren't very good at reading.
It's funny how among elitists, gayles used to be the looked down upon edition because of how readable and easily accessible it was and how popular it became as a result. Yet these text have since been dumbed down so much by the likes of Wilson that gayles is now seen as one of the difficult versions that aren't "modern" enough.
>Chapman for Homer
Should have said Chapman and Pope, but I heard that Pope's Odyssey was actually ghostwritten in large part by someone else because his Iliad was so successful but he didn't have the time or energy to do the Odyssey as well.
No mistake was made on my end, dyel. You’re a moron who didn’t even know what Dryden translated.
8 months ago
Anonymous
>Sorry but I am only going to read Dryden’s translation hahaha >Huh? Someone said Dryden never translated Homer? >Heh heh . . . He doesn't know Dryden translated one and a half books of the Iliad! >When I said I'm only going to read Dryden's translation, I meant I will only read 1/32nd of Homer! Who's the pseud now?
8 months ago
Anonymous
Dyel, remind where I said Dryden translated Homer? Give me the exact quote
STEM losers are the biggest dweebs imaginable and get so pussy whipped by 2/10 flat-faced insectoid women that they have the worst shitlib politics imaginable
The ONLY literature community I recognize is IQfy. Frick everyone else, except the classics philology departments. homies reading scraps of ancient greek all day long will always get a pass from me.
Contemporary philology departments are in a very embarrassing state. Fewer people than ever apply for their programs, the standards have been falling precipitously for decades now and most of the people who do join usually do research just as moronic and political as any other humanities department. A high schooler from a good school early last century probably had a better grasp of the classics than your average undergraduate or masters classics student does.
>community
this really is the gayest fricking word there is, unless you can ask any given member of said community to spot you a drink or jump your car, they're not community
and some Black person worshipping homosexual feminist is not my fricking peer in any sense of the imagination
Cantami, o Diva, del Pelíde Achille
L’ira funesta che infiniti addusse
Lutti agli Achei, molte anzi tempo all’Orco
Generose travolse alme d’eroi,
E di cani e d’augelli orrido pasto
Lor salme abbandonò (così di Giove
L’alto consiglio s’adempía), da quando
Primamente disgiunse aspra contesa
Il re de’ prodi Atride e il divo Achille.
E qual de’ numi inimicolli? Il figlio
Di Latona e di Giove. Irato al Sire
Destò quel Dio nel campo un feral morbo,
E la gente pería: colpa d’Atride
Che fece a Crise sacerdote oltraggio.
Musa, quell’uom di moltiforme ingegno
Dimmi, che molto errò, poich’ebbe a terra
Gittate d’Iliòn le sacre torri;
Che città vide molte, e delle genti
L’indol conobbe; che sovr’esso il mare
Molti dentro del cor sofferse affanni,
Mentre a guardar la cara vita intende,
E i suoi compagni a ricondur: ma indarno
Ricondur desiava i suoi compagni,
Che delle colpe lor tutti periro.
Stolti! che osaro vïolare i sacri
Al Sole Iperïon candidi buoi
Con empio dente, ed irritaro il Nume,
Che del ritorno il dì lor non addusse.
Deh parte almen di sì ammirande cose
Narra anco a noi, di Giove figlia, e Diva.
The spectacle of you people not being able to discuss literature and translation without falling into the cliche language of gender/race politics sure is something.
I know some of you have pol brain rott, but I want to shake some of the people here. Why do you talk like an absolute stereotype, why do you, person who claims to have read widely and ingested a variety of classical perspectives, take your personality from the pages of the guardian. You don't get to pretend to be an elite member of any race when you act like a comic relief character.
Guys this isn’t even about her gender politics it’s just her writing is soulless. The only revisionism I really can’t stand is in the illiad when people insist the bond between Achilles and Patroclus had to be a gay one. It’s like these people never experienced true fulfilling heterosexual friendship in their life but that’s for another thread
>tell me about a complicated man
Instadropped, you already know what’s in store
How do people find the energy to read while being a wagie? When I was neet had all the time and energy in the world but now after work I'm just dead, Ibarely have the energy to even cook dinner or something. And I'm still young, dunno how people handle wagie life if they are like 50+
The worst problem with working I thought would be it taking up a lot of your time but the worst problem is the amount of energy it takes so you can't even do anything in your 'free' time
She’s a classics professor at an Ivy League college
She wants to dumb down the classics and soften them so that women and other morons can read them
Academia and publishing and media are firmly behind her
>genuine page-turner
Lmaooo
>epic and everyday
Lmfao even
What is with the modern leftwing fixation on ruining classical literature through strabge adaptations? Specifically Greek myth, plays, poems etc
People without religion and without orientation toward divine and transcendent things are drawn downward into their biological and then material natures and finally start to become servants of non-being, chaos, or entropy itself. It starts out small, they are merely detrimental to form and essence at first because of their indifference to it, but without fail, any person or culture that spends long enough without religion will become actively anti-form, anti-essence which also means anti-good, anti-beauty, and they will go around trying to destroy anything great or lovely.
anon, you are right, but holy shit that was brutal when you put it like that
eventually they all troon out or at least think of trooning out isn't it so?
It just sucks that her objectively worse translations are going to be taught in schools and it kinda sucks knowing kids probably won’t like Homer as much when they first read him. I know the expectation on this board is to be cynically dismissive about every small thing, and just accept that “it is what it is”, but I do feel bad for kids knowing that literature is only going to continue to be less relevant as the years pass and they may never really get the beauty of Homer. I hope I’m just assuming too much though I haven’t read her translations in full just terribly disappointing excerpts
You were never going to be able to fix what is wrong with the current situation in the West by having slightly better Homer translations. Consider this: people in the 60s and 70s were more conscious of this problem and more willing to fight it, and they had infinitely more access to great culture. And they still ended up creating the world we live in now.
You can't fight it just by "maintaining standards" in some vague way. You need to have a state founded on ideal principles, with a highly virtuous citizenry and a highly virtuous elite at the top. You don't get that kind of virtue through soft "incentives" or better "training," you get it by motivating people to sacrifice their lives for their nation. The reason we don't have any more Theodor Mommsens but a slew of Emily Wilsons isn't that Mommsen had access to better Homer translations, it's that he was taught Greek and Latin from birth by a state that demanded excellence of everyone.
We used to have the shitty Lawrence and Rieu prose translations
Rieu is considered to be a bad Iliad translation? I thought it read really well.
Rieu is pretty decent
since when do schools have the money to get new fancy editions anyway? The Wilson books are expensive as frick compared to the older, more established translations the cheap paperback publishers like Oxford, Wordsworth or Penguin use.
I’m talking in 50-100 years when the one world government is fully implemented and all good is made in a lab by bugs and we live in literal pods and it’s literally a neo liberal space faring civilization with whites subjugated and/or extinct
Schools don't do the full books anymore, they just hand out sections and passages
you have no idea how few kids actually read anything at all anymore nonetheless Homer or any fundamental classics. I'm 31 and have never met another millennial irl who has read C&P, War & Peace, anything. The only people who read anymore are women who read schlock genre murder mysteries. I have a friend working at a local university who says the state of literature/English/any high arts majors is worse than you can possibly imagine (now I'm recalling that article of the deluded lit professor claiming better call saul and other netflix specials are actually just as good as reading the classics)
kids on the other hand... zoomers are an entirely new animal. their attention spans are completely fried due to parental neglect and free access to multi hour long binge tik-tok sessions. zoomers have abandoned their humanity in many ways whether you consider it willingly or due to the predatory nature of the modern world. regardless their nature is something new, not in harmony with but adjacent to healthy human nature
In NY they're doing "Romeo and Romeo" plays. So kids will just think Shakespeare is gay (more than it already is)
Who reads The Iliad in public school?
Just teach your own children proper literature through the age old tradition of bed time stories. Bed time stories has the potential to save the west.
Great advice.
It's because you posted one too many busts of an Roman emperor with a dorky quotation about personal responsibility over it and spooked them.
Basically Zuckerman's, israeli, sister started an entire NGO that sought to disconnect all classical sources of European literature from Europeans males and place it firmly in to a progressive/democratic base where it can be weaponized to prevent pride in your ethnic history.
>we wuz itinerant turkish folksingers
Anatolia isn‘t Turkish.
They rightly understand that when Westerners behave in ways they don’t like it largely comes with Westerners drawing from Classical and/or Biblical roots. The key for us will be recognizing that we in reality our men from the Gothic Age, and not the Roman nor Greek.
>The key for us will be recognizing that we in reality our men from the Gothic Age
I am as hostile to chrisrian theology as i am to israeli secularism. I am neither from the Classical or Magian age but the Faustian. As are you. Look forward for new means to establish an age, not backwards. New values and a worldview aare needed, not archaic old ones from the past.
>israeli
>secularism
Pretty moronic take honestly. Even "atheist" israelites aren't actually secular materialists.
Then you’re hostile to yourself because you could never not be deeply Christian no matter how badly you wanted it.
As i said, Faustian man is us and we are witnessing the end of our Culture. I deplore efforts to find a means to transpose dead ethics and world-view in to what i hope will be a new and greater Culture.
Literal deal with the Mephistopheles, Western Man's yearning for the beyond and what is out of his reach. Having contempt for one thing being taken out of its place does not equate to having hate for it in its proper place. The Faustian Culture-Man is in decline, let it go so in peace as the other 7 High Cultueres have. Do not drag up its bones and try and force life in to it.
e can not appreciate Western Literature without knowing the bible, you assume i hate it all, i do not. Just the repeater and doomed attempt to prolong its life.
It's the end of this cycle. But in many ways even that isn't the end. All great epochs are acts of reconstruction, reconcilling the past with the present. We live in an era of decay, but that by its nature will give way to something truly alive in time. What matters most is realizing that quickly enough to define the future.
Without a firm, authoritarian focus on ethno-centrism nothing else matters. Cultures, even high-cultures that Spengler described, are defined entirely by two things; what is not included and what is excluded. If all manner of Africans, Asians and Arabs are allowed to be inside Europe/West nothing will ever rise from it again. Without addressing this, nothing else can be done.
You didn’t read the book lol either the Bible or DotW
Undergang ist zwei bucher.
Faustian makes no sense without Catholicism. Spengler says this explicitly. You didn’t know that because you are a pseud and didn’t read the book.
You're not Greek. This history doesn't belong to you any more than to every person on earth. If the ancient Greeks saw you they would think you were a mindless Northern savage, not one of their own.
There is classic lit belonging to every nation of Europe, much of it tracing heritage to Greece, either through Rome or directly, your denial of this reveals you as a devious, hook-nosed israelite.
I didn't deny there was classic lit in different nations. I denied you were a Greek and that Greek history belonged to you somehow.
>history doesn’t belong to you
Agreed.
History belongs to no one.
Correct. So you can't be proud of something that isn't yours
I agree with this poster. We whites have nothing to be proud of and we can't improve our own traditions by looking at the traditions of others. We need to start from scratch.
Not to mention, Greece as a political entity didn't exist back then. So technically, noone can be proud of that history. Sad I know.
Find me someone who reads history out of pride and isn’t moronic?
I agree with you. Whites should be fully atomized and deracinated from everything that they could possibly feel connected to but for their material goystuff possessions and any and all forms of masturbatorial escapism. In order to help whites achieve this enlightened state we will use the tools that Europeans invented and created. Once we achieve this monumental uprooting and resetting, everyone will be equal in physical and spiritual squalor, for evermore, ruled over by “God’s” (Satan’s) chosen inbred self-worshipping psychopaths.
Nowhere was it claimed i was Greek and true history belongs to nobody. But the fruits of that history belong to that ethnic group who decends from it.
So modern Greeks, not Anglos and Americans.
I'm greek and these tainted translations makes me sad.
>If the ancient Greeks saw you they would think you were a mindless Northern savage, not one of their own.
If you looked fricking Swedish, maybe. Achilles had blonde hair. There is no reason to say that ancient Greeks weren’t white.
The Greeks could easily tan and Achilles's hair was light brown or dirty blond. The Greeks made it very clear Northerners (whites) looked and acted different. They mentioned how Northern hair and skin was lighter than their own. While they were Caucasian, a Germanic or an Anglo (whites) would seem foreign to them.
>"And this is why Homer is actually a feminist btw"
If you have blonde hair, you are white.
ok
That’s not even the same species
Wild how Ancient Greeks statues don't resemble modern Greeks and instead reflect North-Western Europeans.
moronic snowBlack person. You will never be Greek.
The glorious future where left wing utopia manifested after we beat all the mean racists and legalized black votes and gay marriage never materialized. They couldn’t get the square peg into the round hole. The only thing left to do to achieve that utopian vision is to change the shape of the hole. That means black people aren’t doing something wrong, the culture is just racist. That means women aren’t bad writers, we’ve just misinterpreted our classical influence. The point is to lie about history in order to retool the culture. The two pillars of Western culture are the Classics and the Bible. If you can convince the public that those are feminist and anti-racist, then you’ll make the culture feminist and anti-racist (and get yourself a nice tenure-track job along the way.
I don't think there's an elaborate conspiracy here. A lot of teenage girls get into Greek mythology through young adult fiction and then pursue classics as adults, and they think feminist/queer readings of things are awesome.
>greek mythology is probably the most popular mythology around the world
>series like Percy Jackson and writers like Neil Gaiman made greek myth popular and trendy again in the 00s
>it sits right on the edge between mass appeal and sophistication, attracting pseuds and people with an agenda
>regietheater being a thing, and an extremely popular one at that
totalitarian worldviews more generally need to reinterpret narratives and all sorts of devices of previous systems within their own mythopoietic language, unless they are allowed to simply destroy said heterodox elements, which is easy in a way if the target is small, but needs more sophistication if the cons of attempting cancellation are too big
I know I'm gonna attract the butthurt of christbugs but you can even see this in antiquity, some things could be destroyed e.g the random rural temple, others e.g the history of Rome could only be re-interpreted and re-casted within the new revelation. We aren't dealing with anything much different; in this case, the authors in questions e.g the Greeks are too big to simply be cancelled, so linguistic-interpretative sanitation is the only option
Stop using spooked words like totalitarian. Every ideology reinterprets the past in accordance with their views, it's not a "totalitarian" thing to do so.
>Every ideology reinterprets the past in accordance with their views
> it's not a "totalitarian" thing to do so.
All societies desire transformation at some level. Totalitarianism is just the most extreme with resultingly extreme measures.
replacing the classic with a new gae approved version negating the old one as this will be the only one printed in a few years
Current zeitgeist is about the self, anon. Everything is exalted through the lens of what the 'self' produces when exposed to things. So, everything simply *has* to be converted to what the self identifies it as.
Gender, literature classics, movies, songs, culture, everything has to be painted with the colors of how the self sees it, no matter what it looks like. The mere act of vomiting whatever comes out of said self is the ultimate form of 'self-expression', no matter how good that self-expression might be. In short, it's about expressing itself and getting it out there, 'letting the world know who I am', and that's where thought ends, because we've already moved the moment it's out, damn the consequences of whatever the acidity of said vomit did to the environment it was deposited in.
>moved on the moment it's out,
Narcissism.
The author of that review is some asiaticoid halfbreed, the kind that takes great joy in juxtaposing "My name is Harpinder Abtar" and "I am English" as if it's a radical act because they live their entire life in bitterness against whitey
It's fitting that one of these unfortunate golems reviews such a shitty unasked for book by a c**t who doesn't respect Homer. I hope all these people gravitate toward each other in their misery and form a big ball that we can then roll into an active volcano
>doesn't respect Homer
Oh, please.
Hello, Rooney-McCucker troon. Post your med shelf again
have a nice day troony homosexual.
Given that she was born into money and a lineage of literary studies it doesn‘t seem any more thought or effort went into this than opting for which era she most wished to corrupt.
>I hope all these people gravitate toward each other in their misery and form a big ball that we can then roll into an active volcano
zoz
>balances the epic and everyday
>OMMGGGGGG IS THAT THE HECKING EVERYDAY THE QUOTIDIAN THE COMMONPLACE THE MUNDANE THE UNREMARKABLE THE ROUTINE THE DAILY THE ORDINARY GAAAAHHHDDDD I AM LOSING MY MIND I AM SO QUIRKY FOR OVER-INTELLECTUALIZING THE EVERYDAY AHHHHH
James Joyce in a nutshell
What's with that photograph? They didn't even try to make her not the least bit ugly.
>all this quietism
There are over 100 English translations of the Iliad, but this specific one is the reason I don't have a gf
>Erm... what the freaking WEST? This Iliad translation doesn't have any kitschy roman bust fashwave aesthetics, they don't even reference kekistan? I'm going to fantasize about cutting my penis off and project it on the author and their readers!!
Go back to r/rsp, troon
why do you people always come up with this utterly nonsensical shit when you try to insult someone who you perceive to be your political enemy? People who criticize the Wilson translation for being inaccurate certainly donn't want to read the iliad through the lense of a politically motivated right winger either. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
I've read her Odyssey translations and it was fine. Runs along in a clean iambic pentameter and doesn't try and disguise it's shortcomings in any pseudo heroic tone.
It's as good as any modern translation as we are likely to get and I will unironically check out her new book.
People here (but not just here) like the oldy wordy sound and believe preferring it makes them a sophisticated appreciator of the classics, when in reality of course it just shows a complete ignorance of both Greek and English.
For what it's worth I've not read her translation so perhaps it's dreadful. I don't know. What I do know is people here have awfu and predictable taste in poetry.
> it just shows a complete ignorance of both Greek and English
Post your Classics degree and do a translation for us
I don't have a classics degree but I did learn Latin and a bit of Greek in school. And chose to specialize in Russian at uni.
My point is not that I am more of an expert than anyone else but that translations are always subject to their times. As the other poster said, Pope liberally added and removed bits to match the sensibilities of the augustan age and the classical flavor of the times.
Which took their cue partly from Ovid and Virgil, but more from the bucolic bits of Shakespeare. While the Fitzgerald translation is stuffed with bizarre anachronisms that would stand out even today.
The amount of people here that worship at the alter of Pound, and yet the man didn't so much translate as a interpret other poets.
that's not even true though. The issue with the Wilson version isn't her more simplistic writing, but that she intentionally frames things very differently from how they were intended in the original text. She herself stated that her goal was to translate Homer through a modern feminist lense and to take away the focus from Odysseus and bring out the women in the story. That is not a goal any good translator should ever have, to change the original text in such major ways.
The loeb classical library isnt going anywhere, read that if you want but surely all translations are done for their time. Just look at all the stuff Pope left out/ added.
but Pope is rightfully heavily criticized these days for his inaccuracies and for giving these texts his own, very overpowering voice. Wilson however seems to be mostly praised for doing that.
He will just keep backtracking and moving the goalposts. Good luck if you attempt further convo with xir though.
Oh sure Pope was criticized back then as well, but few people claim that it's a bad translation just that it's not accurate. There are scholarly additions you can buy, but they don't exactly make for good reading.
It's worth noting the pope was often praised for preserving the flow of the oral tradition, rather than keeping to iron cast readings of the text.
>she intentionally frames things very differently from how they were intended in the original text
How do you know what the original intention was? Did you dig up Homer and ask him? All you have to go on to determine intention are other interpretations based on more interpretations.
>Uhmmm have you axed him that question yourself sweaty
>Ughh white moids and their thinking they have the correct interpretation
Sappho was heterosexual too
You clearly have never read her translation of The Odyssey. Odysseus is still the focus, Emily Wilson just expands the female characters' personalities and adds details on why the female characters make the decisions they do. My biggest complaint, whether that be Homers fault or Fitzgerald (my firs introduction to the Odyssey), was how weak the female character were as characters. Mostly on Penelope's character was sad, faithful wife, and Athena being a very helpful but overall brash sometimes dumb God. Very one note, barely expressing humanity.
With Emily Wilson's translation, I got a lot more character out of these two characters especially, Athena was more clearly defined as one of the most noble and helpful Gods expressing traits that were popular for Athenian society. Which makes sense she's one of the only Gods to help Odysseus in his noble quest to come back home and get revenge, she shouldn't be expressed in a insulting way even if that was how Greek society viewed women back then. Wilson also hammered hard on how bad Penelopes suffering was but her having the strength to carry on. The same can also be said for Circe who becomes less of an evil b***h but more of a trickster who is compelled to help after she is out tricked by Odysseus and Athena. Calypso is pretty much the same, just that she's more sad and empathetic that her forced relationship with Odysseus is over, but she still helps once a more noble God says she must obey. In terms of how characters are portrayed, Wilsons is way better. It gets rid of one of the only weak elements of The Odyssey and makes it actually compelling.
>Athena was more clearly defined as one of the most noble and helpful Gods
She punished Medusa for the sin of getting raped, and turned Arachne into a spider because she was arrogant.
Even with those horrible actions, she's still one if the most honorable Gods
>she's still one if the most honorable Gods
Not really. She was a selfish b***h, no different than Hera. Dionysus and Hercules were the only good Greek gods.
Hercules tossed a man off of a cliff in drunken stupor. It is why he had to be a slave in Lydia.
I said "good", not "perfect".
Is it a normal thing for """translations""" to not actually just translate texts and outright add bullshit in that's not in the original?
Reasonably, yes.
Or at least it's extremely common.
You'd be horrified to know what the anglo's have done to Dante.
"Traduttore traditore"-Dante
Wait, I'm not sure Dante said that now.
Translations can never be a perfect replica of the original. Plus, I dont mind very different translations unless it's super drastic that it makes the text worse. Wilsons doesn't add anything plot wise that makes the text worse. It argubly adds a lot more depth.
The complaints for her Odysseus translation are absurd, too. How is old Anglo-Saxon language more "authentic" than our modern-day english style. I get liking one translation better than the other, but it's pure stupidity to think one is more "authentically" accurate than another just because ones old and the other one is new.
>The complaints for her Odysseus translation are absurd, too. How is old Anglo-Saxon language more "authentic" than our modern-day english style. I get liking one translation better than the other, but it's pure stupidity to think one is more "authentically" accurate than another just because ones old and the other one is new.
Well, I personally don't like Pope's either. I hate later affectations of Early Modern English. I like them within their own time (Shakespeare, the King James Bible, etc), but it's usually full of too much flourish in later periods. Sounding olde timey isn't always good.
I prefer translations that are as word for word as possible, sans foreign syntax and sentence structure. Even if an idiom is odd, I'd prefer it and just have the explanation in a footnote.
>It argubly adds a lot more depth
No. It's too sparse and too unfaithful, and the things she elides and the things she injects are unwelcome, trampling intrusions, not 'added depth'.
Return to reddit.
Homer is written in an oldy wordy way.
>For what it's worth I've not read her translation so perhaps it's dreadful.
I've actually read her translation cover to cover, since I had it assigned for a class. My issue with it was that, when comparing it to older translations, I found that stuff was left out. Something like half of the context and dialogue of the Phaeacians realizing their boat had been sunk on the way back from Ithaca was cut. Her translation reads fine, but she sacrifices a lot to make the book more palatable to people who aren't very good at reading.
>Runs along in a clean iambic pentameter
Then what's this?
Not him, but it is iambic.
Bros I bought the gayles Penguin editions of the Iliad, Odyssey and Aeneid, am I fricked?
It's funny how among elitists, gayles used to be the looked down upon edition because of how readable and easily accessible it was and how popular it became as a result. Yet these text have since been dumbed down so much by the likes of Wilson that gayles is now seen as one of the difficult versions that aren't "modern" enough.
Just wait til you see what comes out in another decade or so
I unironically want a Tyrone DeShawn translation now.
>tell the old story for our modern times
you can feel the smugness radiating off the page.
I wish she die of "culture enrichment"
2017 is better and probably more accurate. I don't care for ornate pompous bullshit
>ornate pompous bullshit
You mean poetry?
What's more accurate to the original Greek text? If her translation is more accurate it's fine
Do you even need to ask?
Okay well what's the most accurate translation of Homer in English then? I only own gayles
Lattimore's Illiad, gayles Odyssey
You were out of your mind if you think gayles is accurate but he is a decent Middle ground.
His oddysey is a nice middleground between sterility and just buttfrick random epicness.
I am out of my mind though.
Sorry but I am only going to read Dryden’s translation hahaha
Pseud detected
Dryden never translated Homer, you're thinking of Pope
Yeah, Dryden only did the Aeneid.
Anglos have it pretty good, all things considered. Dryden for the Aeneid, Chapman for Homer, Golding for the Metamorphoses.
>Chapman for Homer
Should have said Chapman and Pope, but I heard that Pope's Odyssey was actually ghostwritten in large part by someone else because his Iliad was so successful but he didn't have the time or energy to do the Odyssey as well.
Dryden also did a translation of Ovid. I rate it higher than Golding's.
Really? Why?
moron
>Someone pointed out my mistake?
>R-r-r-moronddd!
No mistake was made on my end, dyel. You’re a moron who didn’t even know what Dryden translated.
>Sorry but I am only going to read Dryden’s translation hahaha
>Huh? Someone said Dryden never translated Homer?
>Heh heh . . . He doesn't know Dryden translated one and a half books of the Iliad!
>When I said I'm only going to read Dryden's translation, I meant I will only read 1/32nd of Homer! Who's the pseud now?
Dyel, remind where I said Dryden translated Homer? Give me the exact quote
It's OK, all the men who took the STEMpill will save us. Or the gamers.
They'll falter once even the tiniest crumb of hole gets thrown their way. Bugs like that have no ethos.
STEM losers are the biggest dweebs imaginable and get so pussy whipped by 2/10 flat-faced insectoid women that they have the worst shitlib politics imaginable
The ONLY literature community I recognize is IQfy. Frick everyone else, except the classics philology departments. homies reading scraps of ancient greek all day long will always get a pass from me.
Contemporary philology departments are in a very embarrassing state. Fewer people than ever apply for their programs, the standards have been falling precipitously for decades now and most of the people who do join usually do research just as moronic and political as any other humanities department. A high schooler from a good school early last century probably had a better grasp of the classics than your average undergraduate or masters classics student does.
>"democracy dies in the darkness"
Everytime I come on IQfy.
>community
this really is the gayest fricking word there is, unless you can ask any given member of said community to spot you a drink or jump your car, they're not community
and some Black person worshipping homosexual feminist is not my fricking peer in any sense of the imagination
>it’s another Emily Wilson thread
Only one Emily Wilson thread in the catalog at a time, please.
>Tell me about a pissed off man.
>le house of leaves
>community
Everything and anything is a "community" now?
Cantami, o Diva, del Pelíde Achille
L’ira funesta che infiniti addusse
Lutti agli Achei, molte anzi tempo all’Orco
Generose travolse alme d’eroi,
E di cani e d’augelli orrido pasto
Lor salme abbandonò (così di Giove
L’alto consiglio s’adempía), da quando
Primamente disgiunse aspra contesa
Il re de’ prodi Atride e il divo Achille.
E qual de’ numi inimicolli? Il figlio
Di Latona e di Giove. Irato al Sire
Destò quel Dio nel campo un feral morbo,
E la gente pería: colpa d’Atride
Che fece a Crise sacerdote oltraggio.
Musa, quell’uom di moltiforme ingegno
Dimmi, che molto errò, poich’ebbe a terra
Gittate d’Iliòn le sacre torri;
Che città vide molte, e delle genti
L’indol conobbe; che sovr’esso il mare
Molti dentro del cor sofferse affanni,
Mentre a guardar la cara vita intende,
E i suoi compagni a ricondur: ma indarno
Ricondur desiava i suoi compagni,
Che delle colpe lor tutti periro.
Stolti! che osaro vïolare i sacri
Al Sole Iperïon candidi buoi
Con empio dente, ed irritaro il Nume,
Che del ritorno il dì lor non addusse.
Deh parte almen di sì ammirande cose
Narra anco a noi, di Giove figlia, e Diva.
The spectacle of you people not being able to discuss literature and translation without falling into the cliche language of gender/race politics sure is something.
I know some of you have pol brain rott, but I want to shake some of the people here. Why do you talk like an absolute stereotype, why do you, person who claims to have read widely and ingested a variety of classical perspectives, take your personality from the pages of the guardian. You don't get to pretend to be an elite member of any race when you act like a comic relief character.
Weak bait.
Guys this isn’t even about her gender politics it’s just her writing is soulless. The only revisionism I really can’t stand is in the illiad when people insist the bond between Achilles and Patroclus had to be a gay one. It’s like these people never experienced true fulfilling heterosexual friendship in their life but that’s for another thread
>tell me about a complicated man
Instadropped, you already know what’s in store
>had to be a gay one.
Gay culture is a 20th century thing.
Achilles and Patroclus sucked each other's dicks but it wasn't gay.
How do people find the energy to read while being a wagie? When I was neet had all the time and energy in the world but now after work I'm just dead, Ibarely have the energy to even cook dinner or something. And I'm still young, dunno how people handle wagie life if they are like 50+
The worst problem with working I thought would be it taking up a lot of your time but the worst problem is the amount of energy it takes so you can't even do anything in your 'free' time
>new translation among many and one of the most translated works of fiction
>this is bad and is why literature is dying
who cares?
Why post?
She’s a classics professor at an Ivy League college
She wants to dumb down the classics and soften them so that women and other morons can read them
Academia and publishing and media are firmly behind her
because that's what all the students will be reading in class
Do Americans seriously read translations at university...?
Yes