Let's be honest, Tolkien was influenced by Wagner.
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Let's be honest, Tolkien was influenced by Wagner.
Let's be honest, Tolkien was influenced by Wagner.
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Both are good.
Nibelungenlied, Kalevala, the Poetic Edda, Lord Dunsany's style, E. R. Eddison's sensibility, Haggard's sense of adventure...
please teach me how to acquire h. rider. haggard's sense of adventure
Let’s be honest,
>totally non-controversial and widely accepted suggestion
Good job OP
Every time it's mentioned Tolkien fans rabidly deny it. It should be obvious, but it's not treated as such because Tolkien himself disliked the association.
>Tolkien fans rabidly deny it
no they don't...
Have you ever seen them talk about it? Always denial.
Proof?
Why do they care? Because Wagner was le ebil nazi?
Tolkien is just disneyfied, anglicized kitschy pastiche.
What does that even mean
The ring is cursed/evil
....
What else?
Evil guy forges ring of power, long journey to return it to where it can be melted down.
>What else?
Basically everything. All powerful ring created and cursed by Alberich, an evil being, who loses it and the rest of the story is him trying to get it back while others attempt to destroy it by returning it to its source. The specific lines Alberich curses it with are 'the lord of the ring as the slave of the ring'. Alberich split into two for Tolkien, Sauron and Gollum (who is much closer in his short, goblin-like visage and behaviour). The industrial undertones to Alberich, his realm, the ring, and the general symbolism of technology uprooting nature. Plus it was gained at one point by one brother murdering another shortly after they have found it, and then he sits on it for a large part of the story. Arwen, like Brunnhilde, marries a mortal with the consequences that entails. Etc. etc.
Tolkien never claimed his works were wholly original. He rightly keeps making the point that middle earth is earth in a fictional past. I never understand why IQfy morons don't care to take that assumption to its logical conclusions including the most common criticism that his books lack appropriate drama, when he maintains that tons of translations have diluted the original literary prose. He is a language scholar for god's sake, of course his stories and languages will borrow from existing ones as they are supposed to have led to their development, why is this so hard for you homosexuals to understand?
Not only language but what you'd call historical linguistics today, the change in language over time. He's reconstructing a prehistory of languages and myth from Europe, like how PIE was reconstructed from recorded languages. So the Norse myths, Old English, etc. are descendants of Tolkien's languages and myth.
Because Tolkien is an overrated hack and other fantasy writers deserve his fame.
You meant underrated.
lol
Shippey said he's the Author of the Century.
Shippey is a blind fanboy.
He's unbiased.
Not only that but Tolkien plainly stated that he meant to preserve European pagan myth and merge it with Christian myth. The work is *supposed* to be based on the Norse/icelandic sagas (which Wagner is also based on).
It was never a secret.
No one is “ripping off” anything. Anyone who seriously suggests that just doesn’t understand how the artistic process works, or they’re trolling
>Not only that but Tolkien plainly stated that he meant to preserve European pagan myth and merge it with Christian myth.
So pastiche. I can't believe this homosexual gave Lewis shit for doing the same shit.
>No one is “ripping off” anything.
Kind of is.
>Anyone who seriously suggests that just doesn’t understand how the artistic process works, or they’re trolling
"Artistic process = ripped off pastiche". Not necessarily.
>pastiche
>maybe if I use pseudo-intellectual buzzwords they’ll think I’m right
>everything I don't like is le buzzword
Lewis used allegory, Tolkien was very subtle, to the point that he shies away from making any kind of messianic narrative. He can argue about lotr being christian but that is too farfetched. You would have to assume gandalf as some sort of christ when in fact he is shown more as everyone's favorite grandfather. There is no worship or scripture or even explicit religious doctrine in the legendarium, all we get is some esoteric group in numenor making human sacrifices to morgoth and maybe the elves rebelling against the Vala, his legendarium maintains very strong pagan symbolisms and the only christian elements that stand out are the mentions of melkor and eru's disagreements, which are very sparse in mention and which could be easily mistaken for any monotheist, even polytheist origin stories.
Or they're spergs. I think they're spergs.
Well Tolkien denied any resemblances between his work and Wagner's. And Tolkien's followers do the same.
>hhaha both stories are read left to right!
>both stories have a magical ring!!!
>chekcmate tolkien!!!
this isnt the gotcha you thought it was.
>hhaha both stories are read left to right!
lmao cope & seethe tolkiendrone
???? Are you seriously denying the influence?
He also said that lotr is christian, so make up your mind homosexual
Author's don't own ideas, they own their specific execution of them.
Wagner ripped off Plato's Ring of Gyges.
thanks
We have a guy that keeps making these threads. We have a Finnish guy who keeps posting that 90% is taken from Kalevala. He ripped off everything from Wagner. He ripped off everything from Kalevala. He ripped off everything from Norse mythology. He ripped off everything from Greek mythology. He ripped off everything from the Mabinogion. He ripped off everything from Dunsany. He ripped off everything from William Morris.
People are allowed to talk about influences...
No you're not. What's the book that's being discussed?
LOTR and DRDN.
I'll allow it
It's true. He ripped off all those.
>Artists, authors, writers are inspired by other artists, authors, writers
ok, and?
Why are Germs and Finns so needy about this? “Waah we did good things too please notice us senpai!” It’s like fine we get it you’re super special boys now pipe down already we’re trying to read more Tolkien over here.
Wagner was anti-semitic. Tolkien wasn't. Check-mate, Chud.
>Tolkien wasn't
He was still racist though
Is the Kalevala authentic? The whole story seems like bullshit to me but the Finns I've spoken to are convinced that it represents a pre-modern oral tradition
It's a literary work that draws heavily on oral tradition. There's a lot of mixing and matching to make it into a cohesive whole, so it doesn't really represent authentic tradition in that sense, but the bulk of it is based on actual oral material. The poems they collected are all available online, everyone can judge for themselves how closely it matches the finished work.