Is Greek really an Indo-European people? (with IE language?) see, I'm aware that no language is "pure", we can see abstracts in everything, but I was referring to the main structure of the language.
Can Greek really be considered a primarily IE language?!
see my reasoning:
The Mycenaeans are literally the exact same race of people as the Bronze Age Hittites and Anatolians. why?
both have heavy CHG and Anatolian Neolithic with a minimal admixture of northern Eurasian pastoralists and steppe hunter gatherers, both speak bizarre, almost isolated versions of IE languages, they both have strong northern Middle Eastern and Iranian influence and both phenotypically in their art resemble the Minoans. Thus, they are almost certainly sister races and are not Indo-European, but just a mixed primitive population. The Bronze Age Greeks and Anatolians are basically the same people, in the same way that the Norse and the Germanics are basically the same people, that's my point.
And also regarding the Greek language, Proto-Greek and its origin being mainly foreign and via steppe peoples, does not make much sense according to some articles. Greek is mainly EEF and there are even HG heritage from the Balkans.
clarification note:
Nordic and Mediterranean supremacists ARE FORBIDDEN to use this topic. We don't want 10 year olds fighting, go to /misc/.
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>Is Greek really an Indo-European people?
there are no indo-european "people" its a linguistic family of totally unrelated cultures for the most part
I didn't read what the OP said due to lack of time, but you're the same idiot who says the Celts don't exist
theres no blonde police
it's pretty obvious what he means
no the frick its not, even if there are commonalities, greece does not represent the same thing as scythia or some shit, theyre all totally unique and have virtually nothing in common
Other than genetic, linguistic, cultural, religious, and societal similarities, of course.
>genetic
ancient greeks didnt have 23andme
>cultural, religious, and societal similarities
what the frick does a nomadic, shamanistic, aniconic equestrian, pastoralist society from siberia have in common with a settled, priestly, idol-worshiping, farmer civilization from the mediterranean? the greeks themselves said that they despised the scythians as disgusting barbarians, youre telling me they were aware of a continuity between them? are you moronic?
>ancient greeks didnt have 23andme
Luckily we do.
>a nomadic, shamanistic, aniconic equestrian, pastoralist society
So Greece a few centuries before the Classical period.
>from siberia
The Scythians lived in Europe, anon.
>youre telling me they were aware of a continuity between them?
They believed that they, like all Europeans, shared a common descent from the Gods, and they were aware of the linguistic, cultural, and religious similarities between them, yes.
>So Greece a few centuries before the Classical period.
name 5 historical examples of greek shamanism, nomadic greek equestrianism, greek pastoralism and greek aniconism then, should be easy
>they were aware of the linguistic, cultural, and religious similarities between them, yes
name 5 examples for each
Moistly, yes. They were an indo-european nobility that conquered a non-IE group of Old Europeans. Unlike in Northern Europe, they did not fully eradicate and replace the prior OE population, which is why they're swarthier lol.
You can tell genetically and linguistically, but also from looking at their pantheons. In Northern Europe, the invading IE largely eradicated and replaced OE religion. In Southern Europe they merged with their religion. You can see this in the pairing of Zeus (root word Dyaus Pater, "Sky Father," the chief of the IE gods) and Demeter his wife, the pre-IE Old European fertility and harvest goddess. Similar with Uranus and his wife Gaia. So, religiously, instead of eradicating the farmers feminine harvest religion and replacing it with their masculine sky, cattle, and war gods, they merged them and had them "marry" into combined pantheons.
ancient greeks and all other "indo european" people saw themselves as unique and distinct people, totally unrelated from eachother, "indo european people" is a postmodern misnomer thats extracted from anthropological autism that is of no relevance to the actual historical people that they are the subject of; youre basically inventing a people group with fabricated distinct culture from vague archeological data
Yes because we just let people "see themselves" any way they want and believe them. I bet you think trannies are women because they "see themselves" this way. Indo-European people have very obvious common genetic, cultural, religious, and linguistic histories that originate from the same people and the same place. Just because your brother sees himself as a different person than your dad doesn't mean they're not related.
congratulations.
responding to a bot
Haven't you noticed that all the topics about IE appear with the same arguments?
I've never posted on this board before lol. Are they actual bots or just autistic anon shilling nonsense?
They are autistic.
for example, they often use the EEF populations against the steppe peoples as if it were some sort of moral kombat.
for example;
they will use the EEF as being people 100% different from the IE, as the former were superior to the stupid and barbaric "steppenig".
I'm not sure if it's the same guy, but every topic about any people north of Italy and Greece, he despises.
they say that the Yamnaya were gypsies, they deny the steppe presence in India or diminish it, etc
this is you
You're either very low IQ or a deliberate shill.
Honestly that just sounds like advanced trolling, but I know how mad Aryan "theory" makes Indians so it's probably just Indians every time. Indian until proven otherwise.
Did you see what I said?
It's a meme bot
no one answer him because after a while he will leave
see *no one* talked about blonde people and he made a meme with a blonde guy in the photo
the name of this is complex hahaha
right i should've made him indian HAHAHAHAHA
Anti-IE bot ON
It's crazy how much indo european history makes nonwhites seethe. 70% chance he's Indian.
still about my opinion about the language:
It is widely accepted that one or several languages thrived on the Greek peninsula and western Asia Minor before the dominance of Mycenaean Greek and Anatolian languages such as Hittite and Luwian (not Trojan, folks)
Perhaps, Proto-Greek speakers emerged as a result of an evolutionary process within the existing populations of the Greek peninsula, and not as invaders from the north???
Proto-Greek may have developed in situ through contact between indigenous pre-Greek populations and arriving groups, the argument is basically that Proto-Greek, the ancestor of all Greek dialects, evolved locally from pre-Greek languages. -existing spoken in the Balkans and the Aegean region. This contrasts with the invasion theory, which would imply a more abrupt linguistic change (see Western European languages)
and I think that the lack of abrupt cultural changes in the archaeological record of late Bronze Age Greece must be taken into account
Comparison with the development of other Indo-European languages, which often demonstrates a pattern of gradual evolution and assimilation rather than abrupt replacement through invasion
>Proto-Greek, the ancestor of all Greek dialects, evolved locally from pre-Greek languages
bullshit
>Is Greek really an Indo-European people?
no, they're wops, not a lot of steppe blood, the litte they have is mostly from intermarriage with slavs during the byzantine empire, otherwise they're pretty much the same as they were in minoan and mycenaean days
>Can Greek really be considered a primarily IE language?!
of course, even if it's an isolated branch. isn't it related to albanian (ie illyrian)? it's just the rest of ie languages in the balkans went extinct because of roman and slavic conquest
and how does this contrast with genetics? Did an IE-speaking elite "force" the languages on the inhabitants? but I have my doubts as to whether the Greek language really is IE...
even considering his isolation, like the Tocharian (if this is the case)
>Did an IE-speaking elite "force" the languages on the inhabitants?
probably, not necessarily by force but yes, non-ie greeks started speaking an ie language because it was more useful
>Is Greek really an Indo-European people?
Genetically, culturally, linguistically, and religiously, yes.
>(with IE language?)
Greek is archetypically IE, yes.
>Can Greek really be considered a primarily IE language?!
Yes, just like the last time you made this thread.
>Proto-Greek and its origin being mainly foreign and via steppe peoples
Yes, Greek society is the result of Indo-European peoples moving to the Greek Peninsula, this is a basic fact.
>Greek is mainly EEF
We do not have enough data to state this for a certainty.
>We do not have enough data to state this for a certainty.
Let me expand on this: we do not have enough data to make this statement in a statistically valid manner regarding Greek GENETICS. Regarding language, no Greek is an Indo-European language and displays all of the features of one. The Pre-Greek influence upon the Greek language is miniscule and mostly concerned with vocabulary, there's no grammatic influence (in part we can tell because Anatolian languages are very agglutinative whereas Ancient Greek is archetypally fusional).
>Yes, just like the last time you made this thread.
shit, did i reply to a spam thread? is OP the greek gay who claims albos were imported from the caucasus and started using illyrian as a language for reasons?
I wonder if you have REALLY read any ancient Greek sources...
I don't think the OP is necessarily correct, but even the Greeks weren't very Indo-European, since you idiots brought up the mythological subject, although they are not primary sources of historical events (we wuz aquililes n shiet) ancient Greek myths and literature they occasionally reflect a feeling of deep rootedness in the earth. This cultural continuity is sometimes interpreted as supporting the theory of an evolutionary rather than invasive origin for the Proto-Greeks/Dorians/IE.
using Zeus as their sky father is not enough proof
Achilles
Odysseus
Apollo
Ares
Artemis
Asclepius
Athens
Atlas
Dionysus
Hermes
Hephaestus, at least in the linguistic sense, has a substrate structure
>Achilles
>Odysseus
>Apollo
>Ares
>Artemis
>Asclepius
>Athens
>Atlas
>Dionysus
>Hermes
>Hephaestus, at least in the linguistic sense, has a substrate structure
All of these names are of Greek origin.
Animals: e.g., βόλινθος/βόνασσος, bólinthos/bónassos, 'wild ox'; kάνθαρος, kántharos, 'beetle'; σμίνθος, smínthos, 'mouse'.
Architecture: e.g. λαβύρινθος, labýrinthos, 'labyrinth'; πλίνθος, plinthos, 'brick'; πύργος, pýrgos, 'tower'.[3]
Maritime vocabulary: e.g. θάλασσα, thálassa, 'sea'. 'lead'; σίδηρος, sídēros, 'iron'.
Musical instruments: e.g. σύριγξ, sýrinx, 'flute'; kίθαρις, kitharis, 'zither'; σάλπιγξ, sálpinx, 'trumpet'; φόρμιγξ, phórminx, 'lyre'.
Personal names: e.g. Ὀδυσσεύς, 'Odysseus'.[4]; Ήφαιστος, 'Hephaestus'.
Plants: e.g. ἀψίνθιον, wormwood, 'wormwood' or 'wormwood'; ἐλαία, elaía, 'olive tree'; kισσός, kisses, 'ivy'; ἄμπελος, ámpelos, 'vine'; σταφύλια, staphylia, grape
Social institutions: e.g. τύραννος, týrannos, 'absolute ruler'.
Theonyms: e.g. Ἀπόλλων, Apóllōn 'Apollo'.[5]
Toponyms (or place names): -nth- (e.g. Κόρινθος 'Korinthos', Ζάkυνθος 'Zakynthos'), -ss- (e.g. Παρνασσός 'Parnassos') and -tt- (e.g. Ὑμηττός ' Hymettus' ).
Use of domestic species: ἔλαιον, élaion, 'oil'; λήkυθος, lḗkythos, 'bottle of oil'; kάνθων, kánthōn, 'package'.
Weapons: σιβύνη, síbynē, 'hunting spear'; ὑσσός, hyssós, 'dart'; θώραξ, thṓrax, 'corset'.
Weaving: μύρινθος, mýrinthos, 'cord'; ἀρύβαλλος, arýballos, 'bag'.
Well, i won
the issue of genetics is nothing to discuss.
I am particularly in favor of the opinion that in some way, not necessarily elite, since we have some samples from the palace in Minicas and they were J-2, and regarding the language, it is definitely Indo-European... I don't know why the Greek nationalists and his desire for historical "exclusivity" appeals to this....
but you didn't argue something important, what about the mythological and literary Sources? they are, at least mainly, of Indo-European heritage. something happened, maybe the steppe nomads had a nice culture better than the EEF.
Le OP, are you Greek?
but I'm going to tell Gracia's story>
the Greeks since the Neolithic were mainly EEF, and in the Bronze Age nomadic pastoral people and warriors entered Greece, as they did not have the numbers and the necessary military capacity, they were "assimilated", but as they were more warriors than the EEF, they were often used in their wars, and over time they became an elite.
and answer me;
Is it easier for a shepherd to become a farmer or a farmer to become a shepherd? Yes. That's exactly what happened to Greece
well, there are still more Greek samples left to draw conclusions as some nationalists on both sides do.
Mr. Lazaridis is not a god, okay? he has a bit of a bias.
>Is Greek really an Indo-European people
The study literally says "However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in
deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the
hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia6–8, introduced via
a proximal source related to the inhabitants of either the Eurasian
steppe1,6,9 or Armenia4,9" They were an adjacent population that interbred with them, you don't go from Steppe to mostly not steppe in that short of a time period, that's fricking stupid. Read the Damgaard study
>In Anatolia, Bronze Age samples, including from Hittite speaking settlements associated with the first written evidence of IE languages, show genetic continuity with preceding Anatolian Copper Age (CA) samples and have substantial Caucasian hunter-gatherer (CHG)–related ancestry but no evidence of direct steppe admixture.
no one is denying that they were farmers.
Why use scarecrows? What do you get with it?
>Can Greek really be considered a primarily IE language?!
Regardless of culture, yes, absolutely.
Greek have a lot of lexical similarities with Latin and Sanskrit. It was actually the odd similarities between ancient greek and sanskrit that started the whole IE hypothesis, that eventually became established science.
>Greek have a lot of lexical similarities with Latin and Sanskrit
No it doesn't.
That's like saying Japanese and English are part of the same language because TV in Japanese is "Terebi".
Terrible bait or just a stupid bad faith argument.
Read 2 minutes of any linguistic research and you will see.
Like that?
Greeks language is 30% IE