I'm not talking about the romanticized interpretation of it, the idea of afterlife, or the feeling of escapism caused by depression, but actual Death. To contemplate the idea of your consciousness ceasing to exist forever, in the timeless universe, just as before you were born. Any books that discuss this on a deeper level without resorting to copes?
So you want the, to dwell on that fact of death and to never touch on the history of how people coped with religious ideas or philosophic ideas.
That’s not a book, that’s a paragraph.
>never touch on the history of how people coped with religious ideas or philosophic ideas.
I wouldn't mind as long as the author deals with the reality of death too.
Miguel de Unamuno, kind of though he's more about futilely trying to attain your own immortality--the survival of your own name beyond death, and the consequent egoism which seems to motivate all men--despite knowing the impossibility. That life rather than being a Darwinian struggle for self-preservation is rather a struggle to see the self subsist beyond itself, beyond its own dissolution.
He talks about death at length in his poems.
just don't think about it
I wish I were an ant.
I certainlty wouldnt want to be one.
you can be one right now
>Any books that discuss this on a deeper level without resorting to copes?
materialism *is* a cope though anon
>materialism
Where did I mention materialism? If you are saying that looking at the death of the brain as the end of life is materialism, you should at the least shows there lies something beyond that.
How?
Just read Plato bro.
>"Oh, you fear death? Why? You don't even know what it's like."
Maybe, but Plato doesn't exist now and will never for eternity, that is scary. He's gone, like he was never there.
>"Maybe, but Plato doesn't exist [here and] now and will never [do so again here] for eternity, that is scary. He's gone, like he was never there. [This is actually just wrong because his impact will reverberate throughout all time.]"
You are looking at this from a human-centric perspective, than that of an individual's. It's true that Plato's knowledge is a gift to humanity. But I'm talking about Plato's consciousness, that will never appear again.
>"You are looking at this from a human-centric perspective, than that of an individual's. It's true that Plato's knowledge is a gift to humanity. But I'm talking about Plato's consciousness, that will never appear [here] again."
Not really a concern. He wasn't worried about it at all.
He probably used a cope, which one?
Look here:
Yeah some of the pseudo-Platonic dialogues deal with this topic as well. Although I think you are wrong. I am pretty sure OP is actually that one guy who periodically makes threads about how nothing matters because we all die and every argument against nihilism is actually a cope.
>takes the Republic 100% literally
>gets filtered
>still gets it fricking wrong anyway
Marriage is not banned in the Platonic Republic, it is just controlled by the philosopher-king and his officials.
>I am pretty sure OP is actually that one guy who periodically makes threads about how nothing matters because we all die and every argument against nihilism is actually a cope.
This is the first IQfy thread I have made in years.
I don't think OP is trying to say that Plato himself was concerned with this, just that he wants a book that deals with the individual's reckoning with the end of their personal existence rather than talking about death in an abstract way. Even if, at the end of an individual's life, they know that their life will have long-lasting impacts, it does not necessarily negate the fact that there is an infinite non-existence awaiting them (even though the idea of legacy may give some comfort). Some individuals are clearly more concerned about this than others, but it's not ridiculous to think that it's scary to most people.
I can understand what you’re saying anon. I think death is spooky because it’s a complete unknown but since it is completely unknowable it’s better not to worry about it.
This is infinitely easier said than done, hope you end up finding something to read that helps you with this friend.
>doesn't exist now and will never for eternity
Headcanon
It doesn't follow logically that existence ends upon death. The human mind has created innumerable worlds of imagination and I'm supposed to think that's all just a fart in the wind or a chemical spark like a lighter being ignited, and not reflective of some kind of multitudinous reality of which life is as close to the least as it is to the greatest. Nah I don't buy it. It makes at least as much sense as your reductive blackpill, drag my balls through the dirt, mopey homosexual outlook.
So, something like "us existing right now strongly unless we always did and always will"? Need I remind you that brain is certainly not a discreet entity, it's a bunch of particles and whatever the frick, so what you're looking at is some hippie shit about oneness of everything. This about right? We don't know this for sure, of course, so it would be an article of faith. As usual.
>just ban marriage bro
>just let the state raise your kids bro
>please it will work
>just trust me it will work bro
I wish I was properly afraid of death.
The MEMENTO MORI memo doesn't work with me and I wish it did.
I wish I could just struggle forever but without pity holding me back. Some people dont deserve empathy.
Only thing I know of personally is Becker's Denial of Death
This is going to be the most influential and explicitly related recommendation for this topic.
The Passenger
The Passenger
White Noise, also The Exorcist was apparently written as a way for Blatty to cope with his own mother's death.
Brother, there's nothing but cope until we get life extension tech off the ground
I want a half-Asian wife
How do you know that she is a half?
After you run her through the bandsaw you use vernier calipers to measure each section. If you're within a 1/1000th tolerance they're half-wives for the purposes of this build. File to fit.
Empathy and love for your neighbor
The scariest thing is maybe you don't want the cure
What cure?
>contemplating the one thing we are all innately know is inevitable yet incapable of being experienced until it happens--doomed to pointless, fruitless, futile failures of hypothesis
>any books that discuss what it would be like to not exist, you know, the thing that no human can ever experience?
You can't be serious with the nonsense. How did you write this post and not think to yourself how stupid it is?
I am talking about the fear of it not people actually experuencing it.
>depression is when escapism is not enough
They kill themselves to seek relief from their problems that make them depressed. They aren't actually actively seeking death. That is why people who have survived suicide(jumpers) experienced great fear and regret at the moment they attempted it.
>you dont even know if universe is timeless or not
It only adds to the anxiety. Also, we do know that consciousness doesn't exist after death and no one has ever come back from that till now.
>I am talking about the fear of it not people actually experuencing it.
I'm not trying to be an butthole--honestly--but have you considered that the primary function of storytelling itself is a means of coping with the knowledge of death? That we create meaning with stories for the purposes of placation?
As for novels that deal with the fear of mortality, I guess the best one that says something more than "oh no scary" or "no big not scary" is The Picture of Dorian Gray.
Are you worried about death or something, Anon?
Maybe, but it didn't stop some philosophers from pursuit of truth, even questioning if "truth" even exists.
>Are you worried about death or something, Anon?
I am.
>I am.
I see.
Well, honestly, that a good thing. You should be worried. And you should remain so until you find within yourself your own means of conquering your fears of it. It is the most terrifying thought a human can contemplate--the fear of the unknown, in its purest sense. And you know it is coming, at some point, hopefully not for a lengthy while, but coming nonetheless. It is death that ultimately give purpose to life, that forces us to make due with our limited time here to exist in this way, as we experience it. What happens after death? None can know. There are not answers to be found to this question--not exactly. A religious man would say afterlife--as if the fantastical imaginings of men are somehow applicable--but a materialist will give you the equally nonsensical answer of "nothing" (as if "nothing" is something even definable for a human as such). Such unfortunates are so uncomfortable with not knowing that they are forced to make up a something to satisfy themselves. Perhaps you may consider accepting not knowing in this case and finding peace that way. In any case, you are certain to receive no answers or deep insight from any book that I know--and a book that magically answers all of your questions and concerns about death would be quite a known quantity, perhaps akin to that of the famous religious texts that are in vogue at this point in human civilization. If those are no use to you--which I am assuming they are not--you are faced with the slightly more challenging task of dealing with the problem yourself.
>or the feeling of escapism caused by depression,
this is completely misguided. depression is when escapism is not enough. dont know how you come with this.
also you dont even know if universe is timeless or not, we just dont know what is all about.
The death of Ivan Illyich.
You just said it, the universe is endless. So death is only a temporary state, idiot. Why would something endless only create you once? Youve been here before and youll be here again. Try not to be such a moron on the next run.
ITT a bunch of first-world self absorved homosexuals.
Tbf it's not all on you, you have bern raised in an extremely individualistic society
We are all brothers
>death is...
>LE BAD
>LE SCARY
>LE BEGINNING OF LE NOTHING
Materialistic and egotistical. Boring.
>Materialistic
Why do people keep saying that in this thread. Do you guys even know what it means.
Do you?
I am not prioritizing matter and process over everything. I would happily entertain the idea that there is something beyond death, but it is lack of evidence that is the problem. Even now I'm not saying that there nothing for sure, but in an event that there is nothing nor will there ever be something(of you) after death.
Your fears are completely reasonable anon don't forget most people here are literally autistic
Yes but that presumption is set on the basis that your consciousness is created by your brain and not the other way around. If spirit is the core aura of existence than your brain can be shot to shit and it would only free your spirit, not shut it off.
>Yes but that presumption is set on the basis that your consciousness is created by your brain and not the other way around. If spirit is the core aura of existence than your brain can be shot to shit and it would only free your spirit, not shut it off.
Yeah but we know for a fact that you can remove like significant parts of the brain and it does not free significant parts of the spirit, while it does significantly damages consciousness in a myriad of ways, which is very weird if brain is a consequence of consciousness.
Yes because its bound to it but that doesnt mean anything. Science is moronic it only asks what never how. It only deals with materialism so to say science has proven anything is like saying we know other worlds dont exist because they are no signs of them here. Well yes no shit thats why they are otherly.
>Yes because its bound to it but that doesnt mean anything.
How do you know that it doesn't mean anything tho?
>Science is moronic it only asks what never how.
Nah, it does ask how rather frequently - it just doesn't ask stuff that cannot be conclusively proven to other people while remaining in accordance with such and such sets of rules.
>It only deals with materialism so to say science has proven anything is like saying we know other worlds dont exist because they are no signs of them here
Well, first of all - if there are no signs that you can reliably find, describe and show to other people - then it also doesn't prove anything, it becomes an opinion, not a proof.
Secondly - proof from absence of evidence is currently considered to an anti-scientific methodology. Science does not state that it has proven that other worlds do not exist - it states that existence of other worlds has not been proven, and cannot be proved or disproved either way within the current paradigm.
Science can tell you how everything has a purpose in the intricate laws of the universe. Everything, except sentient consciousness. In this case it's only fair to look for answers in other fields such as metaphysics
>Science can tell you how everything has a purpose in the intricate laws of the universe
Eh, no, not exactly. "Purpose" is an anthropocentric concept - so things are considered as having purposes only in areas that concern human activity.
>Everything, except sentient consciousness. In this case it's only fair to look for answers in other fields such as metaphysics
Not really - that's the qualia issue, and it's still a part of active discourse involving neuroscientists, cyberneticists and philosophers of mind, like Dennet, Chalmers, Kirk etc. It doesn't exactly require a metaphysical paradigm to analyze, and if we tried - it would give us a number of models, which would never be anything more than opinions.
Metaphysics are cool, and philosophy is the mother of science, but people filtered by Calculus 101 trying to sweep out the scientific approach from the board of tools for understanding the world are probably even more cringe than bugmen who claim that philosophy is obsolete. In either case it's really just midwits soothing their asspain from getting filtered by something they find too comples.
> "Purpose" is an anthropocentric concept
By purpose I meant interdependent laws that govern the universe. By calling something anthropocentric you inevitably highlight a separation between the two. It's not an exercise in denying any rationality and scientific method but an acceptance of the fact that we are deeply irrational in accordance to complete rational law.
> it would give us a number of models, which would never be anything more than opinions.
It just means that some things are and will forever be unknowable hardly a non-religious thought. Doesn't mean that those opinions can't be tested against each other in order to find the most beneficial to us.
>on the basis that your consciousness is created by your brain
Hate to be that guy but Science has proven that.
The lack of what evidence, exactly? Material evidence? It is very clear that your agnosticism is heavily leaning towards material. This is also why you follow up on your agnosticism with scepticism ("in the event of there being nothing after death"). You either know what comes after death, or you do not. When you posit nothingness in the way people usually pose it, you are taking a materialist position, be it more or less cautious.
>Yeah but we know for a fact that you can remove like significant parts of the brain and it does not free significant parts of the spirit
This is a stupid line of argument to pursue but even here, how do you know that? Do you have a special spirit detection gadget that traces the amount of spirit present in a body in proportion to the amount of brain matter? For all you know, destroying chunks of the brain does free up chunks of the spirit. Although positing spirit in such quantitative terms in the first place is, as I said, stupid.
>while it does significantly damages consciousness in a myriad of ways
It doesn't damage consciousness btw. It may or may not damage reason, which is a wholly different thing. Or it may just impair bodily function.
Science can't study consciousness at all because consciousness is not something you can cut open and stuck electrodes in. You're full of shit my friend.
>consciousness is not something you can cut open and stuck electrodes in
An ultra high resolution MRI machine can. One that doesn't exist, or if it does, isn't available to the public. The work simply isn't done and we don't know shit.
I guess the first part of your post is in jest? Funny response, I guess.
It's just neurons doing neuron things, you realize. You positing an existence of an immortal soul piloting it all, perhaps? Unique to just humans maybe? What's the issue here? We mapped some primitive brains already. Like a lobster.
You are borderline incoherent. Express yourself properly if you want a response.
Switching to full shit talking mode, huh? I really don't give a shit about winning the argument, you know.
I genuinely don't know how you expect me to respond to that post anon. If you expect an argument out of this then please take a clear-cut stance. I am not trying to insult you, I am simply stating that you are borderline incoherent. Which you were. If I did not expect you to be capable of being coherent, I wouldn't have asked you to clarify your position.
Epictetus assumes soul(consciousness) is eternal and can exist outside of body.
Even if it isn't and and all we do is return to nature, how is this something to be afraid of? do you remember what it was like before you were alive? you won't have to put up with people anymore, have to bathe, shit and eat, go to work etc.
Our fear of death makes us slaves, we should fear the fear of death, not death itself. It's going to happen, whether you like it or not, so you need to accept it, it's no evil.
>Even if it isn't and and all we do is return to nature,
That is assuming that consciousness does too.
goes fricking hard
hyperboria when
If I am death is not. If death is I am not. Simple as. Now focus on what's important by living your life.
Obviously Denial of Death by Becker. You could also look up Philippe Aries' Western Attitudes Towards Death and The Hour of Our Death and how the perception(s) of death have been shaped over time. There's also Jay Rosenberg's Thinking Clearly about Death.
>To contemplate the idea of your consciousness ceasing to exist forever
You can't contemplate nothing. Nothing is void of nothingness. You're not going to get any books because death doesn't exist. The closest you'll get to death is the ordinary life you already live.
>You are afraid of death; but how can you scorn it in the midst of a mushroom supper? You wish to live; well, do you know how to live? You are afraid to die. But come now; is this life of yours anything but death? Gaius Caesar was passing along the Via Latina, when a man stepped out from the ranks of the prisoners, his grey beard hanging down to his breast, and begged to be put to death. "What", said Caesar, "are you alive now?" That is the answer which should be given to men to whom death would come as a relief.
I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet, this thread is full of pseuds btw.
>"pseuds"
>[posts audiobook]
Pot to kettle: you're black.
I just searched for the book cover moron, I'm obviously not recommending the audiobook version.
>I'm obviously not recommending the audiobook version.
Pseud.
normiecore, but correct:
>Being Mortal, Gawande
>Closer to The Light, Morse and Perry
>CTRL + F "Heidegger"
>nothing
Terrible thread.
Read Sein und Zeit.
It is our opinion of death what disturbs us, not death itself, become a friend to death, imagine yourself being killed in all different kind of ways and it will become less scary.
Also view death as eternal peace, not some great evil, because it isn't, it's a essential part of the cycle of nature.
evil is part of nature, there’s no reason death cant be evil except COPE
Evil is a product of human ignorance, not nature, when animals kill to survive they don't do it out of any malice, but to survive.
living forever would actually be hell on earth, because while your body would stay young, the mind would almost certainly fade, you would also get bored of seeing the same thing and mistakes happening over and over, old people now also get tired of this.
>old people now also get tired of this
I think they are like this because everything hurts and quality of life is generally shit.
It's a stupid idea to contemplate how you would contemplate while lacking the thing that contemplates. Huff some copium, I don't know. Maybe consciousness is an eventual and eternal fate of every bit of existence, and "we are all one meng".
Philip Larkin, 'Aubade'
Nature has little consideration for our well-being aside from the ability to propagate genes. We're already blind to the suffering of our offspring. I guess we're just as blind when it comes to death. "Dude there's just nothing" seems like a good story, one that our brains can handle just well enough to keep the scheme going, but there's a truth out there somewhere. There's nothing guaranteeing some peaceful state of nonexistence so all we can do is hope. Whatever it is, we can't stop it now, and we have no qualms about putting others in the same situation. Let's hope its nothing just to get along a little further and pray our inquisitive meddling never tells us otherwise.
>one that our brains can handle just well enough
Lol no. It's exactly the thing that it can't handle. Possibly the only thing. It has handle when someone else dies just fine though.
>It's exactly the thing that it can't handle
Your brain can't handle the thought of total non-being forever as though you never existed?
No. That's why practically every religion goes "there is no total non being at all lol". That's religious copium in a nutshell.
I'm nowhere near this flavor of struggle. For me non-being was a peaceful reward I greatly looked forward to until the implications of materialism started to point to other possible outcomes. No religion necessary, unless we count to the dogmatic faith in annihilation.
Well, that's one way to look at it. I also don't really believe that this conviction of yours is real in any way. I think every human there ever was, and, frankly, a frickton of other species, has been shitting themselves over existential dread and will keep doing so until life persists. Maybe if fear of death is disabled, this effect will go away.
>everybody is as afraid as I am
Cope.
It really comes up about once a year, so it's not so bad. I am good at drowning myself in positive emotion, and I'm not that young. People typically lose the skill and get all depressed.
I truly don't understand your position. You're afraid of a state of perfect non-being away from physical and mental torture as opposed to the alternative?
There is no way to perceive non being with a living brain, anon. You know this.
That's a prepackaged answer for others, read what I said. I never said anything at all about perception. The utter lack of perception is exactly what I'm talking about. You're afraid of the utter lack of perception instead of welcoming?
>You're afraid of the utter lack of perception instead of welcoming?
Yes. I find life fun. Death is a perfect fear of the unknown, unresolvable if accepted for eternal nonexistence. Without religious copium, say.
That explains our location on two different worlds. To be erased from existence, like should occur, is the best outcome the universe could possibly give and is no way guaranteed. What you fear is what I desperately hope for most hours of the day. I can only function knowing it ends, but for perception to extend past death in any way is a hell. I have to imagine you've never dealt with seemingly intractable physical pain.
>but for perception to extend past death in any way is a hell
Anon, religious and what you might call materialist copes claim that there is no such thing as death at all. It doesn't matter if it's afterlife, reincarnation, or maybe an idea that your constituent elements will just recombine into something again. It's just "you always life", maintaining some kind of consciousness. Is that what you're afraid of? An idea of eternal life for you personally?
Its the only reasonable thing to be afraid of.
Man is soured by knowledge of his death. Its our "privilege" as the smartest ape on the block. If he could supplant that fear of the unknown with a certainty that suffering does have an end, he would be unstoppable. For death to "mean" anything the mind must extend experience outward, but the cessation of experience is a salvation that I assumed everyone appreciated.
>our "privilege" as the smartest ape on the block
I don't think I buy this. Probably our megalomania talking.
>but the cessation of experience is a salvation that I assumed everyone appreciated
And what, precisely, is stopping you from grasping that salvation right about now? There are hordes of philosophers, living and dead, going on about how life is a cosmic mistake and we're trapped in prisons of flesh and all that jazz. And yet, none of these buttholes ever seen to an hero. Is it maybe fear of death?
>peaceful reward
You can't comprehend non-existence because you simply don't exist. It isn't like sleep.
>It isn't like sleep
Arguably it is exactly like sleep, at least deep sleep. Brain may be doing something, but consciousness is turned off. People can actually develop fear of going to sleep. Because you don't remember falling asleep, for instance.
>Arguably it is exactly like sleep, at least deep sleep. Brain may be doing something, but consciousness is turned off.
Your brain won't be doing anything when you are dead.
It's not analogous we are still thinking and experiencing things while asleep though you lack control, it's called dreaming.
Whereas assuming there's no afterlife, then there is also no experience at all
My grandfather was scared of being unconscious, actually. And sleeping pills, because they provoke dreamless sleep. Well, you're technically right, the brain is alive.
Now that I think about it, the Eastern religious schtick is that life is suffering, and non-existence is something to strive for through religious practice. And some gnostic cults are also like this. So yeah, this meme about death being salvation is something humanity played with for a long time. Nothing new under the sun lol.
I wonder if all the past philosophers would change or come with new theories after learning what modern science has to offer?
Stanzas on the death oh his father, Jorge Manrique.
Why none other then the death of ivan ilyich, just fricking buy it and read it. Life affirming shit, but also death affirming if you get me
Camus.