Maybe they're common enough adjectives that this is not an unlikely coincidence, but I thought it interesting to find a collocation in the British magazine Punch that is similar to the one Woolf uses 16 years later.
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Maybe they're common enough adjectives that this is not an unlikely coincidence, but I thought it interesting to find a collocation in the Britis...
how was this found
I googled 'drastic and astringent', in quote marks, because I wanted to find the Woolf quote. The only result was the line in Punch.
there's some stuff in gravity's rainbow that is from a spread in a 1950s life magazine. maybe pynchon was just browsing old life magazines to get post-war stuff to put in gr since there was no wikipedia back then, or maybe he meant to do it and it's an obscure reference for academic pricks to figure out.
Maybe she read it and liked it. Writers steal all the time.
It could have been a phrase in common use, back then such things often did not get recorded since no internet recording angel (demon).
Use of a short phrase completely dependent on context for meaning is not stealing.
It is stealing. She stole. We're all fine with it. You're coping and seething.
Then the only way to be original is to be incoherent and irrelevant and everything is theft and the only thing as banal and mundane as this thread is you.
You're being very original right now
Really? I was trying to be as moronic as you are.
see
She's being original by using the phrase in a different context. You'd be surprised to know how many great works of art copy, steal, get inspiration or interpret previous works. Everyone knows, everyone is fine with it.
>You'd be surprised to know how many great works of art copy, steal, get inspiration or interpret previous works
No, I wouldn't. Being original by using a phrase in a new context is being inspired by a previous context, quite different then stealing. At what point does this cease being stealing? You either have to be uselessly reductive and say everything is theft or accept a more nuanced view of the world. Every word I just used has been used by others and quite a few two and three word phrases as well as longer phrases and clauses have been used by others, did I steal them? The context and meaning are what matter, the words and phrases are a means to an end and ultimately superficial, what are they without their meaning?
While I understand your perspective, I'd like to offer a counterpoint. It's true that art often draws inspiration from previous works, and creativity does involve building upon existing ideas. However, the distinction between being inspired by a previous work and outright stealing isn't as simple as contextualizing a phrase differently.
When we talk about stealing in the context of art, we're not referring to using common phrases or words that have been used before. It's about appropriating entire concepts, themes, or even specific elements of another work without proper credit or transformative interpretation. There's a difference between using a well-known phrase like "a penny for your thoughts" and replicating an entire plot, character development, or artistic style without adding any new value.
Originality and creativity are vital in the world of art. While it's true that words and phrases themselves may have been used by others, the unique arrangement, expression, and interpretation are what give them new life and meaning. It's the artist's responsibility to infuse their work with personal perspective and creativity, creating something that's distinctly theirs even if it's built upon existing concepts.
While context and meaning do matter, it's essential to recognize the significance of innovation in art. Striving for originality doesn't mean rejecting all influence; rather, it's about embracing those influences and transforming them into something fresh and meaningful. This approach not only respects the creative process but also contributes to the ongoing evolution of art as a whole.
>dances around the point
Nothing you said is actually counter to what I said, you contradict yourself more than once and ChatGPT. If that is not ChatGPT you have been spending way too much time reading the output of ChatGPT.
I appreciate your engagement with my response. It seems you're concerned about the clarity of my response and its alignment with your initial point. I apologize if my previous response didn't directly address your concerns.
If you could provide me with more specific details about the points you found contradictory or unclear, I'd be more than happy to address them directly and provide a clearer explanation. Your feedback is valuable in helping me ensure that my responses align more effectively with your viewpoints and concerns. Please feel free to elaborate, and I'll do my best to respond in a way that addresses your observations accurately.
I guess all writers save up little phrases and expressions for later use.
>he hasn't encountered "good artists borrow, great artists steal"
Good grief the absolute fricking state of zoomers ruining this godforsaken board
How the hell is wine's taste drastic?
Guessing you’ve never tasted anything beyond your local supermarket’s cheapest own-brand red?
also what the hell is going on with the grammar in that sentence why is there a comma and a second indefinite article
It's elided: basically, "Wine has a drastic taste, an astringent taste."
On an anonymous literature forum, a user shared an observation about a collocation of words in the British magazine Punch that resembled a phrase used by Virginia Woolf 16 years later. This led to a discussion among forum members:
One user wondered how this connection was found, prompting the original poster (OP) to explain that they had searched for the specific phrase "drastic and astringent" in quotes to locate the Woolf quote, but found it only in the Punch magazine.
Another user mentioned that there are instances in Thomas Pynchon's "Gravity's Rainbow" where content is taken from a 1950s Life magazine spread, suggesting that Pynchon might have used old magazines as a source of post-war material before Wikipedia existed. They speculated whether these references were intentional or simply obscure references for academics to decipher.
Some participants suggested that writers often borrow and steal from other sources, and they save phrases and expressions for later use. They referenced the saying "good artists borrow, great artists steal."
A user criticized someone for not being aware of the saying "good artists borrow, great artists steal," implying that borrowing ideas is common among artists.
The discussion continued with debate over whether borrowing short phrases dependent on context should be considered stealing. One user argued that if a short phrase's meaning is context-dependent, it's not stealing, while another insisted that it is indeed stealing and that everyone is fine with it.
Questions about the phrase itself arose, with one user asking how wine's taste could be considered "drastic." This led to a playful exchange where another user suggested the first user might not have experienced wines beyond cheap supermarket brands.
Confusion over the grammar in the original sentence prompted discussion, with users pointing out issues with the placement of commas and articles.
A philosophical argument emerged about originality, with one user suggesting that being entirely original might lead to incoherence, and therefore everything could be considered a form of theft. The conversation took a more confrontational tone as users expressed varying opinions on the matter.
The discussion briefly took a humorous turn, with a user claiming to be deliberately as "moronic" as another participant.
The thread closed with references to previous comments and a clarification of the elided grammar in the original sentence, explaining that it meant "Wine has a drastic taste, an astringent taste."
Overall, the forum thread revolved around the concept of borrowing and stealing in literature, referencing specific instances from different writers' works and discussing the nature of originality and influence in creative endeavors.
is this chatgpt
what is this
it's like an AP news article written to sum up a thread
wtf
what is this
This is basically the same method ChatGPT uses macrocosmically.