This one hurt to read. We (hamburger) are a seriously fricked up nation.
He makes excellent arguments, shows that almost every major WWII military leader is on record saying it was not necessary to drop the bombs.
for example, Eisenhower in the 60s said >"They were ready to surrender wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing"
He also outlined how Truman pursued a two track plan through summer 1945 pending succesful test, which comes mid July 1945. Neither involved home islands invasion except as contingency. They were mainly concerned about securing unconditional surrender. The only sticking point the Japs had was keeping the Emperor in power. things remained unclear until Trinity and then Truman went full on Teddy Roosevelt. He admits in his memoir he never thought about it. "Make no mistake about it, there was never any doubt in my mind that as this was a weapon and we were in a war we would use it."
Japan was already a bombed out wasteland in August 1945. The Soviets declared war on August 9 as they had planned for months. We dropped bomb 2 on August 11.
They dropped that fricking thing on people 6 weeks after they tested it, so they could get an unconditional surrender, and then ended up letting the Emperor remain in ceremonial office anyways.
They deserved it purely for having cannibals. I don't think even the Wehrmacht (the meme monster energy drink guy 's unit included) or the Red Army had them
>Make no mistake about it, there was never any doubt in my mind that as this was a weapon and we were in a war we would use it
Isn't that the correct approach? The whole point of a war is to win as quickly and completely as possible.
No, destruction of civilians was not a normal part of warfare until the 20th century, in particular the second world war.
When we were planning the firebombings and the moonscape bombings in the last year of the war we frequently self-curtailed. We were avoiding population centers, avoiding destruction of cultural monuments. We were not salting fields or burning grain.
All out war on civilians is literally just mass murder. All the ethical considerations behind tactical decisions were bewildered by the new war tech of the 20th century.
Even still each actor tended to avoid all out war, though of course it broke out in many places. All out war is expensive and results in civilian resistance. Mustard gas fell out of use, too many German and UK officers remembered the gas from WWI to think to use it in WWII.
My point is moral considerations about tactics certainly continued to be made during the course of the war. To any mildly intelligent person, the nukes were a new class of war requiring new and careful thinking.
Truman was not a thinker, he was a fricking hat salesman with a high school educatiom. He was an absolute 50s man. Smart talker, good strong handshake, practical, liked his fact sheets and briefs.
And he is the one who got to decide on behalf of all mankind that nuclear weapons are legitimate weapons of war, and he did so to achieve extremely near-sighted objectives without any comprehension of the possibility of a Cold War, an arms race, an accident or subvetsive theft of technology.
It is beyond ridiculous. Truman was a monster, he single-handedly damned us to 50 years of cold war and set up this sham globalism where unknown cadres of diplomats and elites make all the decisions in dim board rooms.
Rhodes does address this in the book. He take you through the slowly escalating logic of it, how the conventional bombing slowly ramped against more and more harmless targets, how the techniques developed to wipe out civilian areas and maximise casualties, and the inhuman mindset that set in among the likes of 'Do it Again' Arthur as they just started to look at numbers and 'square miles destroyed' rather than stopping to think.
So when they get the new toy, it's a difference in quantity not a difference in kind.
>All out war on civilians is literally just mass murder
wait til you here about the huns and mongols
8 months ago
Anonymous
The default reaction of any given mind to any given piece of writing is to attack it with incredulity and to try and destroy it with superior knowledge or comprehension.
There's nothing wrong with the will to power over text, as I say it is default.
But as you go along and learn more you MUST force yourself to comprehend before you attack.
You MUST be mindful and critical of who has more and less knowledge than yourself, and you must never attack what is not read and comprehended.
When all reader-writers learn to comprehend before attacking, mankind will have discovered Peace and will be well on his way to knowing Truth.
Take it dead serious, it's not debate, it's the fate and future of our species we are negotiating. All of us. In every conversation or piece of writing we advance history slightly.
The default reaction of any given mind to any given piece of writing is to attack it with incredulity and to try and destroy it with superior knowledge or comprehension.
There's nothing wrong with the will to power over text, as I say it is default.
But as you go along and learn more you MUST force yourself to comprehend before you attack.
You MUST be mindful and critical of who has more and less knowledge than yourself, and you must never attack what is not read and comprehended.
When all reader-writers learn to comprehend before attacking, mankind will have discovered Peace and will be well on his way to knowing Truth.
Take it dead serious, it's not debate, it's the fate and future of our species we are negotiating. All of us. In every conversation or piece of writing we advance history slightly.
The spacing of these posts tells me everything I need to know. Thanks for saving me the trouble of reading them.
>And he is the one who got to decide on behalf of all mankind that nuclear weapons are legitimate weapons of war, and he did so to achieve extremely near-sighted objectives without any comprehension of the possibility of a Cold War, an arms race, an accident or subvetsive theft of technology.
That is tripe. This was all known, all understood. The US Admin knew where the figurative wind was blowing and hedge correctly. Thanks to the stewardship of RAND, the world prevailes under a balance of deterence and compliance.
>let's rubber stamp the partition of Europe obsessively pursued by our idiot English cousins to the sole benefit of international communism by blowing our geostrategic wad nuking a prostrate enemy that has been suing for a reasonable conditional peace for over a fricking year
FDR's administration was absolutely infested by Russian assets to the point of concocting war prolonging policies. The Manhattan Project being compromised was the crown israeliteel, along with the probable (at least attempted) transfer of nuclear plans and material by Hopkins & White to Vladviostok.
here are some praiseworthy challengers:
- the prize (about oil)
- susan wise bauer's trilogy (might be too convoluted to most, I admit)
- jonathan sumption's history of the Hundred Years War.
- seven pillars of wisdom.
- why nations fail
- the position sex bible
any good about fricking is perfect. the reasoning behing such a opinion is quite simple: sexually mesmerise a lass, and you have attained the status of a living god.
sexually blow her away + explaining the Hundred Years War: deification attained!
It's amazing that people still think the atomic bomb actually happened despite mountains of evidence to the contrary.
Evidence?
The Bible.
Nothing personnel kid
a bomb for ants?
This one hurt to read. We (hamburger) are a seriously fricked up nation.
He makes excellent arguments, shows that almost every major WWII military leader is on record saying it was not necessary to drop the bombs.
for example, Eisenhower in the 60s said
>"They were ready to surrender wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing"
He also outlined how Truman pursued a two track plan through summer 1945 pending succesful test, which comes mid July 1945. Neither involved home islands invasion except as contingency. They were mainly concerned about securing unconditional surrender. The only sticking point the Japs had was keeping the Emperor in power. things remained unclear until Trinity and then Truman went full on Teddy Roosevelt. He admits in his memoir he never thought about it. "Make no mistake about it, there was never any doubt in my mind that as this was a weapon and we were in a war we would use it."
Japan was already a bombed out wasteland in August 1945. The Soviets declared war on August 9 as they had planned for months. We dropped bomb 2 on August 11.
They dropped that fricking thing on people 6 weeks after they tested it, so they could get an unconditional surrender, and then ended up letting the Emperor remain in ceremonial office anyways.
they deserved it for nanking, baatan Pearl harbor, unit 731
deal with it
They deserved it purely for having cannibals. I don't think even the Wehrmacht (the meme monster energy drink guy 's unit included) or the Red Army had them
>Make no mistake about it, there was never any doubt in my mind that as this was a weapon and we were in a war we would use it
Isn't that the correct approach? The whole point of a war is to win as quickly and completely as possible.
No, destruction of civilians was not a normal part of warfare until the 20th century, in particular the second world war.
When we were planning the firebombings and the moonscape bombings in the last year of the war we frequently self-curtailed. We were avoiding population centers, avoiding destruction of cultural monuments. We were not salting fields or burning grain.
All out war on civilians is literally just mass murder. All the ethical considerations behind tactical decisions were bewildered by the new war tech of the 20th century.
Even still each actor tended to avoid all out war, though of course it broke out in many places. All out war is expensive and results in civilian resistance. Mustard gas fell out of use, too many German and UK officers remembered the gas from WWI to think to use it in WWII.
My point is moral considerations about tactics certainly continued to be made during the course of the war. To any mildly intelligent person, the nukes were a new class of war requiring new and careful thinking.
Truman was not a thinker, he was a fricking hat salesman with a high school educatiom. He was an absolute 50s man. Smart talker, good strong handshake, practical, liked his fact sheets and briefs.
And he is the one who got to decide on behalf of all mankind that nuclear weapons are legitimate weapons of war, and he did so to achieve extremely near-sighted objectives without any comprehension of the possibility of a Cold War, an arms race, an accident or subvetsive theft of technology.
It is beyond ridiculous. Truman was a monster, he single-handedly damned us to 50 years of cold war and set up this sham globalism where unknown cadres of diplomats and elites make all the decisions in dim board rooms.
Rhodes does address this in the book. He take you through the slowly escalating logic of it, how the conventional bombing slowly ramped against more and more harmless targets, how the techniques developed to wipe out civilian areas and maximise casualties, and the inhuman mindset that set in among the likes of 'Do it Again' Arthur as they just started to look at numbers and 'square miles destroyed' rather than stopping to think.
So when they get the new toy, it's a difference in quantity not a difference in kind.
>All out war on civilians is literally just mass murder
wait til you here about the huns and mongols
The default reaction of any given mind to any given piece of writing is to attack it with incredulity and to try and destroy it with superior knowledge or comprehension.
There's nothing wrong with the will to power over text, as I say it is default.
But as you go along and learn more you MUST force yourself to comprehend before you attack.
You MUST be mindful and critical of who has more and less knowledge than yourself, and you must never attack what is not read and comprehended.
When all reader-writers learn to comprehend before attacking, mankind will have discovered Peace and will be well on his way to knowing Truth.
Take it dead serious, it's not debate, it's the fate and future of our species we are negotiating. All of us. In every conversation or piece of writing we advance history slightly.
The spacing of these posts tells me everything I need to know. Thanks for saving me the trouble of reading them.
>without any comprehension of the possibility of a Cold War
the whole point of the second bomb was for the cold war
>And he is the one who got to decide on behalf of all mankind that nuclear weapons are legitimate weapons of war, and he did so to achieve extremely near-sighted objectives without any comprehension of the possibility of a Cold War, an arms race, an accident or subvetsive theft of technology.
That is tripe. This was all known, all understood. The US Admin knew where the figurative wind was blowing and hedge correctly. Thanks to the stewardship of RAND, the world prevailes under a balance of deterence and compliance.
>let's rubber stamp the partition of Europe obsessively pursued by our idiot English cousins to the sole benefit of international communism by blowing our geostrategic wad nuking a prostrate enemy that has been suing for a reasonable conditional peace for over a fricking year
FDR's administration was absolutely infested by Russian assets to the point of concocting war prolonging policies. The Manhattan Project being compromised was the crown israeliteel, along with the probable (at least attempted) transfer of nuclear plans and material by Hopkins & White to Vladviostok.
i've had this on my shelf for years, maybe i should finally get around to reading it
It's boring as frick.
here are some praiseworthy challengers:
- the prize (about oil)
- susan wise bauer's trilogy (might be too convoluted to most, I admit)
- jonathan sumption's history of the Hundred Years War.
- seven pillars of wisdom.
- why nations fail
- the position sex bible
any good about fricking is perfect. the reasoning behing such a opinion is quite simple: sexually mesmerise a lass, and you have attained the status of a living god.
sexually blow her away + explaining the Hundred Years War: deification attained!
It's good OP, you're correct.
However....
American Prometheus