>page 1: He MIGHT be the chosen one but we don't know
>Page 3000: Turns out he was the chosen one!!!
Great book, full of plot twists.
Everyone who likes this is a frickhead.
>page 1: He MIGHT be the chosen one but we don't know. >Page 3000: Turns out he was the chosen one!!!
You dumb zoomer Black person cattle, stupid fricking moron.
t. filtered
t. filtered
>keep understanding books
>this makes me get filtered by moron threads
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh
life is an endless treadmill of being filtered aghhghggg
>Page 10: The planet is very dry
>Page 11: Don't forget that the planet is very dry
>Remember, very dry planet
>Sir please don't forget that the planet is dry
OP, your brains are rotten if you couldn't follow the plot of the science fantasy book for young men.
<teenage sexual fantasies projected onto 19th century imperialism>
Well that was unexpected for scifi that bois like.
Did you miss the part where the Bene Gesserit are freaking out precisely because of Paul's ambiguity? If he IS the Kwisatz Haderach, he's early, and Jessica made him without their permission. And when they realize that Paul is indeed HIM, they freak out even more because Paul is not behaving the way they predicted.
Do you fail to realize that the entire point of all that, the entire point of arguably the entire Dune saga, is that prophecies are fricky and it's dangerous to make predictions, because the future is unstable? Nobody knows what the future will be, and to claim to know is to invite error.
>Did you miss the part where the Bene Gesserit are freaking out precisely because of Paul's ambiguity?
I missed the part where spending one long-ass book on painfully obvious character development was necessary.
>Middle aged women upset about teenage boy's phallus
You're new to human sexuality right?
>Dude whaf it predictions are... LE FAKE
Woah so this is the power of Dune bravo Herbert
>Ohmygod ohmygod is that... is that a TWIST?
>A TWISTING TWISTING TWISTY TWIST OHHH YEAH TWISTING PLOT PLOT THAT TWISTS TWISTING TWIST OF A PLOT
>OOOHHH LOK HOW IT TWIIIIIIST OH GOD I WAS NOT EXPECTING THAT AND THEN IT TWIIISTED
>OHMY GOD SO MANY TWISTS OOOOHHH OOOHHHHH OOHHH I'M GONNA
>OAAAH I'M GONNA
>OOOOH I AM TWIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISTING
>I AM TWIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISTING
>OOOOHHHHHHHHH I AM TWIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISTIGN OOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH
Anon plot twists is not the point of the book. Even more fascinating - it's not the point of most books, period.
Funny pasterino
plotgays getting filtered as usual i see
>chosen one
That's a scam fronted by the Bene Gesserit you filtered moron. Paul is the result of a breeding programme they ran and the prophecy was seeded to the Fremen as a psyop to manipulate them should the need arise. Jessica/Paul take advantage of the psyop in order to first survive and then to use the Fremen against the Harkonnen and the Emperor.
Literally this. It is a very cool scifi book.
It's pretty clear that's what is going on in the book. The movie made the Atreides more unidimensional in their heroicism so I'm guessing a lot of morons are going to come away with the take that Paul is actually a mystical profit. Same situation as Fight Club where idiots miss the fact Project Mayhem is a nihilistic cult and the violence was ironic.
Maybe in the second part they'll show that Paul is aware of the potential for the Fremen to expand the war beyond his ability to control it but uses them anyway. That might clue more people in.
>profit
Prophet* Whoops.
Why would one exclude the other? He does say that the planet is filled with people who are tough as frick, what would you honestly expect out of it?
It is both, he is a "prophet", but for practical reasons. This is why I like that book, it builds a somewhat complex world that has this whole culture, politics, economical, social and religion interactions.
>Why would one exclude the other?
What?
>He does say that the planet is filled with people who are tough as frick, what would you honestly expect out of it?
What?
>It is both, he is a "prophet", but for practical reasons.
The main idea is that he and Jessica manipulate the Fremen using the myths seeded by the Bene Gesserit. He takes advantage of the myths but is also the result of their breeding programme (giving him powers). He does the above so that he can use the Fremen as a tool toward destroying the Harkonnen and overthrowing the Emperor in spite of being aware of the possibility that they will overrun his ability to control them and wreak havoc across the universe. This becomes increasingly important for the series.
The "mystical/scam" side of it, why would one exclude the other?
I'm not going to look up on the book, but this is taken from chatGPT:
"The native Fremen ... are ferocious fighters, who live in the deep desert in sietch communities. They are a people of ancient, even legendary, origin, who have adapted to life in the most inhospitable environment imaginable."
And that is what I'm talking about, why would one exclude the other? Does that make sense now?
>The "mystical/scam" side of it, why would one exclude the other?
The point is that he's using mysticism to manipulate the Fremen. He's the result of what's basically a conspiracy by the Bene Gesserit to breed a super human--they spread myths that were in line with their plan throughout the universe and Paul uses one of them to take advantage of the Fremen and manipulate them toward his ends (i.e. destroying the Harkonnen and dethroning the Emperor). Also, the outcome is ad hoc because Paul wasn't supposed to be the Kwisatz Haderach.
>And that is what I'm talking about, why would one exclude the other?
What the frick does the Fremen being ancient have to do with anything? The Bene Gesserit seeded them with the messiah myth in case they needed to be used in the future (again, they did this over multiple planets and cultures). Jessica was privy to the myth seeding because she is a Bene Gesserit and Paul was able to convince the Fremen he "knew their ways as if born to them" because he watched a bunch of videos about their culture even before his powers developed. There's even a part in the book where Jessica almost fricks up when being shown a Crys Knife but gets cut off by the zealot before she can finish her thought (i.e. the Fremen heard what she wanted to hear because she believed in the myth).
I don't think you understand the book. Are you the same moron who thought it was a plot hole that the Bene Gesserit spread myths without realizing Paul/Jessica were taking advantage of them? It was a self-fulfilling prophecy spread by a conspiracy to create someone like Paul (but, again, it wasn't supposed to be him).
It is literally a matter of how you look at things. Is this some kind of joke? This is why I like that book. And still you are blinded thinking that it is definitely one-sided like that. The book is ambivalent, at least considering only the first one, I haven't read the others.
>It is literally a matter of how you look at things
As I said, you can naggle over the idea of "prophet" but the fact is that Paul and Jessica take advantage of the myths spread by the Bene Gesserit in order to manipulate the Fremen. This is shown by Paul learning things from videos that make it appear he simply knew their ways and Jessica almost slipping up when shown the crysknife. Further, Paul is aware that he may not be able to control the Fremen and that their destructive war has the potential to spread in ways he can't foresee.
>And still you are blinded thinking that it is definitely one-sided like that
Again, I didn't say that he isn't a heroic figure. The fact he uses the myths to manipulate the Fremen adds thematic depth to the plot and makes him a more interesting character.
>The book is ambivalent
The book clearly lays out a theme regarding religious belief being used to manipulate the masses toward the ends of the powerful. There is also moral ambiguity when it comes to the Atreides exercising their authority and power--they aren't evil like the Harkonnen but they do use symbolic gestures to build rapport and manipulate others to serve their ends.
>I haven't read the others
It seems like you missed a lot in the first book.
>It would be exactly like that, and where does it come from?
As I said, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy seeded by the Bene Gesserit toward a conspiracy seeking to produce a super human. The important aspect is Paul and Jessica taking advantage of the myths in order to further their immediate causes.
>It is something like the "will of the universe" or something
It's literally the will of the Bene Gesserit until Jessica falls in love with Duke Leto and decides to give birth to Paul. Jessica/Paul then use what the Bene Gesserit have sown to further their cause. Paul's powers are relatively limited in relation to those of Leto III who decides to use his more powerful prescience to put humanity on the "Golden Path."
>It just happens to be written considering the point of view of Paul.
Who is morally conflicted due to the fact he knows manipulating the Fremen could lead to a massive war he won't be able to control. There's even a conspiracy by the Fremen to assassinate him in the second book.
>le prophecy
>actually works
That is the problem with it. And the reason why it is ambivalent. You would have a point if they lost the battle.
>the good guys win so I'm right
>t. moronic plotgay
You're ignoring everything about how he manipulates the Fremen and conveniently forgetting the part about Paul knowing that the war (i.e. "jihad") could potentially spread outside of his control (which it does). Also, what part of "self-fulfilling prophecy" do you not understand?
Your only point is to naggle of the idea of "prophet." I'm honestly surprised you haven't argued "THE SECOND BOOK IS CALLED MESSIAH THO!" Kek.
>uh he acts the prophecy
>so it is not a prophecy
?
Are you trying to turn this into a meaningless last word battle because you were filtered by the book? He wasn't a "prophet" in the sense that the Bene Gesserit conspired to create a super human and spread myths they could later use to serve whatever purpose they saw fit. Paul took advantage of these myths in order to destroy the Harkonnen and overthrow the Emperor. However, the war he created (again, "JIHAD" has connotations important to the theme) erupts beyond his control (moral ambiguity exists in the fact he foresaw the potential it would and still manipulated the Fremen to serve his purpose). Later in the series a more powerful iteration decides that the power created by the Bene Gesserit should be used to put humanity on the "Golden Path."
Is it that complicated to conceive that there are multiple ways to look at it? You are stuck on that shit, that is literally how it looks like for Paul, how would it look like for the Fremen? And even more, considering that they got this brilliant idea, why it actually "working" doesn't mean that it isn't the will of universe itself. This is what I'm talking about. It is like looking at a human body, you can view it in any way that you feel like looking at it, as an artist, doctor, nutritionist, personal trainer and so on.
>Is it that complicated to conceive that there are multiple ways to look at it?
The ambiguity is in the moral decisions undertaken by Paul. The thematic depth of the novel is serviced by the fact it isn't a real prophecy but rather a means by which those in power manipulate the masses. I've given you multiple specific examples of how this is demonstrated within the text and also laid out how the actions of Paul/Jessica are morally ambiguous. Further, the plots of future novels and the overall arc of the series clearly demonstrate the above (e.g. there isn't a set future, Paul is unwilling to take the steps necessary to save humanity from extinction, his heir decides to do this by becoming an authoritarian and sacrificing his humanity).
>You are stuck on that shit, that is literally how it looks like for Paul
No, moron. It's the literal plot of the novel and is the set up for the series. Sorry you're an idiot who read the book as "good guys v. bad guys."
>And even more, considering that they got this brilliant idea, why it actually "working" doesn't mean that it isn't the will of universe itself.
No, moron. It's the will of the Bene Gesserit that conspired to create the Kwisatz Haderach. It's the will of Jessica to go against them and give birth to Paul. It's the will of Paul to use the mythos the Benne Gesserit created (as a means to serve their own power) to manipulate the Fremen. It's the will of the Fremen to carry on the jihad beyond what Paul wanted. By the 4th book, it's the will of Leto III (the God Emperor) to undertake what Paul could not and sacrifice his humanity to ensure the Golden Path. There are literally multiple potential futures in the books, the universe doesn't have a will, and Leto III decides which will occur.
>It is like looking at a human body, you can view it in any way that you feel like looking at it, as an artist, doctor, nutritionist, personal trainer and so on.
Being pretentious doesn't fool people who are smarter than you. Nice try, pseud. It's obvious you were filtered by the book but what's sad is you can't have a discussion based on the new information you've been afforded and insist on an argument you lost several posts ago.
>book is in someone's point of view
You are just dong a materialistic reading of it. My point is that you can do a whatever the frick you want reading of anything, as with any other book. Do I have to make a diagram drawing or something? Is it that hard?
>You are just dong a materialistic reading of it.
It's the literal plot of the novel and it's clearly shown, even in the first book, that the universe doesn't have a will. There are multiple paths that the future may take, moron. It's up to Paul and later Leto III to decide. The myth Paul/Jessica take advantage of is literally just a plot element you're reading the absolute wrong things into.
> My point is that you can do a whatever the frick you want reading of anything, as with any other book
Kek, that isn't a point. Holy shit you're dumb. The literal plot of the novel is that they use the myth to manipulate the Fremen. The prophecy leads to problems which Paul foresaw as potentially occurring but he decided to take advantage of it anyway. The universe doesn't have a "will." There are multiple futures and Paul, later Leto III, use their prescience to inform their decisions. It's up to the reader to decide how their actions are moral and whether they're justified (while also reading into the cost of said actions and how they affect the plot/characters). That's the part where you can build your own interpretation/opinon--you can't ignore plot elements and pretend certain themes don't exist you absolute moron.
I'm not even saying that you are wrong, I'm just saying that there are multiple ways of looking at the story, and that is what makes the book good. If it were clearly that what you are saying, it would be a "mid book" at best.
>I'm just saying that there are multiple ways of looking at the story
I'm telling you that you're an idiot because you missed key elements of the plot integral to a central theme of the novel and, arguably, the main theme of the overall series. As I said, you can develop your own opinions in relation to the theme/story but you can't pretend plot elements don't exist in order to pretend a theme wasn't there. It's obvious you were just filtered, anon.
>If it were clearly that what you are saying, it would be a "mid book" at best.
It is clearly what I'm saying because I'm telling you the explicit plot of the story, moron. Also, morons don't get to decide what's mid so you're shit out of luck. I read it when I was a tween and it suited me fine.
>sperged a nonquitter about feminist interpretations as if that means a theme he missed can be ignored
I didn't read that post beyond the first sentence because it's a nonpoint/slide. However, I will say that your reaction exemplifies the fact that idiots are given schematic bullshit they can regurgitate by the numbers in order to pretend they have an opinion. Congratulations, you just unintentionally underscored why most university students are midwits.
>missed key elements
Just read it again, you are stuck in your own experience. Ask chatGPT for help, it can works wonders with morons. I didn't need it to see "both sides of it", but some people aren't that perceptive.
>tried to argue that Paul is actually willed by the universe to save the Fremen
That wasn't in the book, moron. Simple as. You missed central plot elements and one of the main themes of the book because you're a moron who sucks at reading. Also simple as.
>le fricking prophecy
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prophecy
>naggle of the word prophecy
You missed everything to do with Paul/Jessica manipulating the Fremen. You were completely filtered by the theme involving how those in power manipulate the masses through religious belief. You thought Paul was a mythical messiah because you're a moron. Kek, the Bene Gesserit actually tricked you in real life.
>manipulating
They were supposed to be manipulating, if they were unable to do it, they wouldn't be the ones in the prophecy. It is that fricking simple. I did read that part of doing "the voice" and so on. It is literally a matter of how you look at things.
>They were supposed to be manipulating, if they were unable to do it, they wouldn't be the ones in the prophecy.
Again, the prophecy was a psyop created by the Bene Gesserit. There isn't a real messiah--the Bene Gesserit planted the myth to serve their ends at a later date. There is nothing mystical about it--the universe did not will for Paul to save the Fremen as you previously claimed. In fact, Paul sees multiple futures and there are lines in the book that emphasize he reduced the Fremen by taking advantage of the myth. Unleashing the jihad on the universe also fricks with his head. He knows he isn't an actual God but that the Fremen see him that way and he was engendered a myth that will wreak destruction.
Paul and Jessica merely took advantage of the myth; first for their immediate survival and second to overthrow the Emperor and destroy the Harkonnen). Paul knows about the Fremen because he watched videos about them and Jessica knows about seeding the myth because she is a Bene Gesserit. As I pointed out to you, there's literally a scene in the book where Jessica almost blows it but is interrupted by a zealot before she can put her foot in her mouth.
The above is a key theme in Dune and becomes evermore important to the series as it progresses. It is arguable that it's the central theme in the overall series. You are an idiot for missing it.
>Yes, it is YA
Kek, you were filtered by YA.
And since you seem to be into repeating moron over and over, you seem stressed, get laid or something. Here is how you can do a feminist reading of a book, learn it and you might score some IQfy pussy.
Doing a feminist reading of a book involves analyzing the text through the lens of feminist theory and focusing on issues related to gender, power, and representation. Here are some steps you can take to do a feminist reading of a book:
Identify the gender dynamics in the book. Look at how men and women are portrayed and represented, and consider the power dynamics between them. Are there any stereotypes or gender roles that are reinforced or challenged?
Analyze the language and imagery used in the book. Look for any language or imagery that reinforces gender stereotypes or that promotes a patriarchal worldview. Consider how the author uses language to describe men and women, and whether there are any differences in how they are portrayed.
Consider the historical and social context of the book. Think about the time period in which the book was written and how this might have influenced the author's perspective on gender. Consider the social and cultural context of the book, including any relevant issues related to gender inequality or women's rights.
Look for examples of feminist themes or perspectives in the book. Consider how the book might challenge or subvert traditional gender roles and stereotypes, and look for examples of female empowerment or agency.
Critique the book from a feminist perspective. Consider the ways in which the book might perpetuate or challenge patriarchal norms and values. Think about how the book might contribute to larger discussions about gender and power in society.
By following these steps, you can gain a deeper understanding of the gender dynamics in the book and develop a more nuanced and critical perspective on the text.
See
. You're an idiot and I'm not reading your sperg.
You need to get laid and chill. You seem to be too invested in YA scifi fiction.
>erases his comment and replies again
Kek, you can't tell others they need to chill when you do that, moron. If you don't want to discuss the book that's fine but calling it YA just reflects poorly on you. You were filtered by YA, kek.
It is YA scifi fiction, it isn't anything too deep in it. It is literally about Paul growing up and being an adult.
Yeah, and I read it when I was 11 or 12 whereas you were filtered by "YA" as an adult. Now cope about your cope, moron.
Yes, I can definitely tell that you were 13 or something when you read it. All of your posts reads like some edgy teenager ramblings.
Keep seething. Imagine calling a book you were filtered by "YA" as if that would help you save face. Kek, how embarrassing.
Yes, it is YA, you are literally stuck in a single interpretation of it. There isn't that much depth to it, but there isn't much else to it. It is literally about a boy growing up to be a leader.
More like young boy grows up and accidentally becomes the Prophet Mohammed.
Yeah, but does it raise any deep ethical/philosophical questions? I don't know, I honestly didn't felt like rereading it. There might be cultists of it like
, but I didn't even felt like reading the rest of it. It just doesn't have that much going for it. Consider something like The Name of the Rose, that is a book for adults. That a 13 yo, wouldn't get much out of it.
The anon just said that he read it back when he was 12-13 yo, and he got I would say, about 70% of it, or even more.
>Yeah, but does it raise any deep ethical/philosophical questions?
None that you'd be capable of dealing with.
Like what?
Considering you missed a central theme of the novel and were unable to catch key plot points--all of them.
They are present, but they aren't presented, that is the point. It is a shallow book on those regards.
You don't get to say things like that when you completely missed one of the central themes of the novel and couldn't pick up on simple plot points, moron.
>missed the point
I literally got not only your point, but the other one. I have no idea what you are talking about.
You're supposed to actually read the sequels. Pretty much the whole core thrust of the overarching plot is dealing with the fallout of what Paul did, and how much it messed up the balance of the universe.
I'm not going to read it, just look at the kind moron that is fan of that shit. I don't think I want to get into the scifi fandom.
>but does it raise any deep ethical/philosophical questions?
I don't know. Depends what you think is deep. There are plenty of ethnical and philosophical questions. I guess the core moral question of the series would be about how best to lead people, and to what degree they should be controlled and deceived in the name of a good cause.
Personally, I was more into Dune for the worldbuilding anyway. I like this crazy imaginative universe Frank Herbert came up with.
Yeah, but kinda. That is the thing, they aren't really there, he just does things. This is where I'm getting at. Compare it with Crime and Punishment and it gets obvious.
Compare it with Crime and Punishment how?
How things are presented the ethical problems and implications of stuff. Paul just does things.
The core ethical problem of Crime and Punishment is what? What gives a man the right to kill, and what separates "Napoleon" from the rest of us?
I mean, it's a good book. I liked it. Don't see what you're getting at comparing it to Dune, to be honest, other than just name dropping something people regard very highly, in hopes that I'll agree it's better than Dune.
I wouldn't really compare them.
The way things are presented, ffs. He doesn't really think about anything. Just compare the two books, Paul just does things, he doesn't stop and hesitate, or think about shit.
He was busy fighting for survival for most of the book. The whole arc of Paul having to reflect on what he's done is saved for the sequels.
>too busy for that shit
KEK
Pretty much. On the one hand he has to wrangle all of Alkaeda to do his bidding, and on the other hand he has the Reds hunting him and shit. How much self-reflecting do you want him to do?
I’d say the first book is about embracing vs running from destiny (very roughly). The ethical questions about tyranny aren’t really raised till well into the sequels.
I think the anon namedropping Crime and Punishment got told Dune “was about the ethics of being a hero and leader” and is just repeating that conclusion. Then judging the first book by its inability to cover the topic.
That's one of the things it's about. It's also about ecology, and I guess battle tactics. "Using desert power to win a desert war" is one of those things that gets said again and again in the first book.
Anon is just namedropping another book they read even after it was demonstrated they were filtered by Dune. She's a moron.
I don't know what other books you have read. I'm saying some common "top 100 chart" books. Does that count as name dropping? You are supposed to read at least some of them.
>makes non sequitur to compare "Crime and Punishment" with Dune
It just proves you're a pseud with nothing thoughtful to say about anything.
It’s namedropping because you’re just putting the title there and saying “compare” “look one good, one bad” as opposed to just describing what you’re talking about. On the internet people often allude to some obvious conclusion or super intelligent chain of reasoning but don’t say it explicitly… because they’re almost always bullshitting.
>to what degree they should be controlled and deceived
That moron thought the prophecy was willed by the universe for Paul save the Fremen, anon.
So what is a prophecy, would you care to explain?
In the context of the Dune series "the prophesy" is politics. You're not supposed to take it as a given that there's an actual God of the Femen who's guiding Paul to be a hero.
>there is a way of looking of things
>and it is my way
>despite the definition of the word saying otherwise
I'm not saying that you can't interpret it like that, but are you seeing the "duality" of it now? Just look at the definition of it on the dictionary. You are literally making one up.
How about you explain how the universe willed Paul to be the messiah for the Fremen without contradicting all of the plot elements and the central theme of the book. You completely missed the fact that Paul/Jessica were manipulating them by way of a psyop planted by the Bene Gesserit and the impact it had on the Fremen. You were blind to the moral repercussions of their actions and how they informed Paul's character by the end of the novel.
>I literally got not only your point, but the other one.
You thought Paul was willed by the universe to save the Fremen, moron. This not only ignores several plot elements within the novel but also runs counter to one of it's main themes. It's also contradicted by the fact there are multiple futures and the universe isn't willing any particular one of them.
Again, you're a complete moron who was filtered by a YA book.
I've read the book, and it is like I said, yeah, I got that. And continue to keep calling me a moron, you are literally acting like a 13 yo teenager that read that book. I guess it bought you back memories.
>I've read the book, and it is like I said, yeah, I got that.
You obviously didn't as per your posts in this thread.
>And continue to keep calling me a moron
Sure thing, moron. You are demonstrably stupid as per your posts in this thread.
>you are literally acting like a 13 yo teenager
As I said to you earlier: " It's obvious you were filtered by the book but what's sad is you can't have a discussion based on the new information you've been afforded and insist on an argument you lost several posts ago." You deserve the derision.
Whatever.
>Are you trying to turn this into a meaningless last word battle because you were filtered by the book? (
)
Kek, you're a complete embarrassment.
You are literally vomiting the same plot points over and over, saying that there is no way you can take anything else of that book, and yet you are arguing it is a deep book. Do you even realize how much of a fricking moron you are? If it is as I said in
, you are jizzing your pants because of some mid book, and this is why I won't get into scifi, the fandom is too fricking moronic.
I don't know. You seem upset that you misunderstood a simple book that you wanted to write off as beneath you, and now you're deflecting to "sci-fi fans" who are here in the room with us, apparently. Probably wearing Spock ears and jerking off into a sock, those wacky devils.
There is no substance to back that thing up, while Paul develops and things are present, they aren't presented. It is like I said, I just looked at the actual book. And it is exactly as I remember it.
Do you really think a complaint like “things just happen” is worth a shit? You’re honestly confusing me now.. do you not know how to critique a book? Give some examples, draw a parallel to a theme in crime and punishment, fricking something
You’re acting like the people who don’t like a movie and just say:
>the acting was so bad
>the cinematography was so bad
And don’t realize they’re just saying “I don’t like it!” two or three different ways.
Jesus fricking Christ, I won't download a pdf of that shit just to show you things. If you think that is deep, fine. You literally said that you read a book back when you were 13 and you are swearing that it is the best thing ever. Are you even realizing how ridiculous this is? I'm having fun, because it seems that you are joking.
I’m not even arguing the book is that great, we cannot even get to that level of discussion because you can’t respond properly.
>it’s just not that deep, it’s a mid book
Is the same as saying “I don’t like” over and over. It’s not a critique, it’s just an opinion. There’s nothing to engage with beyond saying you’re dumb
I just said it is an ok book, but without the duality of it, is at best a "mid book", you got all butthurt over it.
Can someone who was demonstrably filtered by a book still call it mid?
>tries to prove that a book is more limited than someone is arguing
>says that this makes the book better
KEK
>tries to prove that a book is more limited than someone is arguing
It's not more limited so much as your take was completely off base, moron. You missed the central theme of the book and therefore couldn't gain any insight from it. You literally thought Paul was space Jesus and missed out on the actual implications of how religious belief is used, morally or immorally, to influence the will of others toward the ends of those who are more powerful than them. You missed out on how it changed the characters from the Fremen who become ideologues to Paul, not a God, himself.
You're a complete idiot, anon.
Nah you’re just being a defensive idiot. I’ll have a discussion with someone who didn’t like the book and has an intelligent perspective no problem. But that isn’t you, you’re just giving your surface level opinion over and over and somehow confused why people are dismissing you. There are things I didn’t like with the books, let me give you an example:
Herbert gives us Paul as a noble guy who becomes a tyrant and eventually abdicates. Then gives us the god-emperor who is perfectly altruistic yet is STILL a tyrant… he’s essentially saying heroes and charismatic leaders are always bad, but he never gives us a solution really. The natural conclusion would be “ok, so what should we do if we’re being exploited like the fremen?”. In the end the god emperor creates a better destiny for mankind by making them so opposed to the idea of zealotry and tyranny… that they’ll never fall to it again, but I wish there had been at least a hint at what that “good” future looked like. Tyrants don’t arise spontaneously… they arise from people who are suffering and go all-in on a charismatic leader, so what should they do? Maybe someone who remembers the ending better can fill me in
Great take, anon. FYI: I'm not the idiot to which you were responding.
The whole point of it would be:
How the frick would a "real messiah look like". This makes the book slightly more interesting, and you are going for the mid version of it, and saying that it is not a shallow book because it has some world building crap. I remember even seeing two mistakes considering physics in it.
>How the frick would a "real messiah look like".
You tried to argue that the universe willed him, moron. Your attempt to move the goalposts isn't going unnoticed. Also, you ignored everything about Paul/Jessica faking it until they made it and, as another anon nicely pointed out to you, the prophecy stuff plays into the idea of politics.
>you are going for the mid version of it
You didn't understand Paul wasn't a mythical figure willed by the universe to save the Fremen, moron. That's below mid--you were literally filtered by the central theme of the book and read it as if it were actually the "YA" novel you keep projecting.
> saying that it is not a shallow book because it has some world building crap
Maybe that's the other anon you're replying to but yeah, the world building in Dune is pretty great. It isn't just garnish either--it plays into the themes of the book (e.g. scifi without computers allows for focus on the humanity and inhumanity of the characters) and directly influences the plot (e.g. the machinations and intrigues of the Bene Gesserit).
>I remember even seeing two mistakes considering physics in it.
Yeah, I noticed there isn't a chemical called "spice" that allows us to see into the future and travel through space. moron. (Also, you approach literature like a bugman but I highly doubt you've studied physics).
And what would it mean for him to be a real messiah? This is getting ridiculous already.
>And what would it mean for him to be a real messiah?
NTA but for that Fremen religion has to be real and Paul needs to get power and revelations from a god as Zensunni imagine him.
>revelation
And what would that be? It can be just their "intuition", that is the whole point. It is somewhat interesting seeing grown up dudes acting like 13 yo teenagers.
This
. The book also wouldn't end with Paul reflecting on the limitations of his powers and lamenting that his manipulation of the Fremen reduced their humanity.
>saying that it is not a shallow book because it has some world building crap
Name some fiction that is not shallow.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Posthumous_Memoirs_of_Br%C3%A1s_Cubas
Things like this.
So no one read it, I'm honestly not surprised.
She missed the entire subplot that the Bene Gessert seeded the myth to Arrakis in order to manipulate the populace at a future date. She didn't realize Paul was taking advantage of it in order to further his own ends and missed everything concerning the themes which revolve around that aspect of the book. She literally thought Paul was actually a mythical messiah who the universe willed to save the Fremen. In short, this person is a complete idiot.
>There is no substance to back that thing up, while Paul develops and things are present, they aren't presented.
Nice meltdown.
>You are literally vomiting the same plot points over and over
Which you failed to incorporate into the discussion because they directly contradict your take on the text.
>saying that there is no way you can take anything else of that book
I explicitly told you where potential for personal interpretation is within the book and directed you toward a key theme you missed. You sperged a non sequitur about feminism and made a vapid point that books can be interpreted any way the reader wants (despite having it pointed out you can't simply ignore key elements of plot and the fact your take is actually counter to a theme demonstrably present in the book).
>yet you are arguing it is a deep book
Again, when you're filtered by a central theme and miss plot elements you don't get to pretend you're above the book, moron.
> Do you even realize how much of a fricking moron you are?
I realize how moronic you are and have been pointing this out to you throughout the thread. This isn't merely an assertion I've been making but is backed up by the textual evidence of your own posts.
>you are jizzing your pants because of some mid book
It's a good book but I don't think I'd rank it as one of my favorites. I'm discussing a novel I read in a thread on IQfy and criticized your posts for the vapid waste of space they are. You started an argument you couldn't win and slid into generic nonsense that fools no one. You're an idiot.
>this is why I won't get into scifi, the fandom is too fricking moronic
I'm not a big fan of scifi either, moron. However, I'm not going to have a temper tantrum in order to tell myself I'm above people who read it. I don't have to because I understood the book and don't need to compensate.
You're an idiot.
>vomiting the same old shit that I literally said that I got it
>moron/idiot in almost every phrase
You are acting like a 13 yo teenager. This is somewhat funny watching, but you need to chill. And that feminist thing is exactly something that might help you out in getting laid, you need to be way less of a sperglord. No one is going to stand this attitude of yours, maybe if you are younger than 20, but if you are older than that...
Is there a point at which it's valid to defend a book from unfair and largely inaccurate criticism though?
If I said I didn't like Crime and Punishment, because I think Russian people are all communists and therefore stupid, and I took objection to the depiction of Smurfs in the book...
It is a shallow book. I just checked the book on internet archive. While he made a rich universe, it is not like he really explore what characters are doing.
Don't know what you mean.
>You are acting like a 13 yo teenager
Says the idiot who was filtered by a book and thought calling it "YA" and "mid" didn't make such reflect all the more poorly on her.
>that feminist thing
Was a complete non sequitur and a slide. However, thanks again for demonstrating that midwits are spoonfed a schematic so they can regurgitate by the numbers bullshit in order to pretend they have an opinion. It really underscores just how vapid people who offer such opinions really are.
>No one is going to stand this attitude of yours
I call out idiots for being idiots while making sure to mostly stay on topic and provide insight into the book. By my posts people can have a laugh at the expense of people like yourself and maybe even get some information about whichever book it is being discussed. I'm not above this board but I'm certainly above morons like yourself who are foolish enough to start arguments they can't win because they're filtered by a book (which they quite ironically assert is below them and "YA").
Cope, moron.
>more teenager shitposting
I'm seeing this really brings you some memories.
>I'm seeing
I'm seeing you feel the need to get the last word because you were BTFO on the merit of your arguments and don't want to reflect on your own stupidity. I predicted it would come to this at the outset. Keep seething into the void, moron.
You are mad because I just said that you are a fanatic over a shallow book. I don't know why you are so engaged in defending your 13 yo self in a literature forum. Maybe you haven't matured at all or you are 13 yo.
Saying someone's wrong when they're wrong doesn't make a person a fanatic.
>you are le wrong
>because you are
I literally haven't even said that you are wrong, I just said that there can be more to it. And that is what makes it good, if you are "right and that is it". The book is pretty mid at best. And your butt went in flames, because you can't see the other part of it. I'm having some fun, but I feel somewhat sorry for you.
That anon was saying that you were wrong, idiot. I backed up my claims about the novel by appealing to the text and discussing the theme, these things directly contradicted you, while you sperged about feminism and resorted to calling book "mid" because you couldn't defend your take.
You're a complete and total moron. Dune isn't a hard novel, anon. You should probably give up reading because you really suck at it.
>you are wrong
>because the literal definition of a word in the dictionary doesn't mean what it actually means
Ok.
>arguing semantics over a word instead of discussing the novel
You're BTFO, anon. Semantics are the last ditch effort of a moron who can't admit to himself he lost an argument. As I said before, it was a "self-fulfilling prophecy" that was seeded by the Bene Gesserit to serve their will. Paul took advantage of it, simple as.
Remember, you argument was that it was the will of the universe and Paul is actually a real mythical messiah sent to save the Fremen. Never mind this contradicts plot elements within the novel (e.g. the multiple possible futures or the fact it's literally spelled out that Jessica/Paul are faking it), minimizes the moral ambiguity of Paul's actions (remember when you said I'm the one narrowing the scope of the book? kek), and disavows Paul's own self-refection and how the Fremen changed due to his manipulation.
You're an idiot, anon. You were filtered by a book and had to resort to an attempt to belittle it because you should it would help you save face. But, again, you can't call something "mid" when you were obviously filtered by it; that just reflects all the more poorly on you. You're a moron.
>le dictionary is le bad
>writes 3 paragraphs
KEK
>BTFO on the detail of his argument
>claims the dictionary makes him right
Kek.
>You are mad because I just said that you are a fanatic over a shallow book
Anyone who isn't filtered by a book is a fanatic now? By those standards the only book you could be considered a fan of is The Very Hungry Caterpillar. Not knocking it--great book.
It is a pretty mid book, if that is the only thing going for it. Seriously, it would be as deep as Full Metal Alchemist. You are literally acting like a sperglord over some "ok anime", which would end up being pretty mid literature.
But if you said something blatantly wrong about Full Metal Alchemist, shouldn't you be corrected?
Bro, you are a genius, that got everything figured out back when you were 13 yo, considering that you haven't changed shit. You are the one the MESSIAH that will save America. This is your prophecy. Now go and MAGA!
And you're calling the other guy a sperg?
No, of course not. He literally got everything out of that book back when he was 13 yo, and found things that weren't even in the dictionary. Haven't changed his views on it and just BTFOs people who lie on the internet with facts and logic. He is the hero that we need. The one who will make everything as it is supposed to be.
>t. thought the universe willed Paul into saving the Freman and the myth spread by the Bene Gesserit was real
Kek.
You're very caught up on someone being 13 when they read a book, but the thing is, they understood it better than you despite being 13.
Bro… this response was so fricking Reddit please stop. Imagine a political discussion that goes:
>lmao you’re a Republican cultist! What an idiot! Don’t you know republicans are racist!
That’s a brainlet discussion, because it’s just say “Republican bad!” several different ways. Instead have a good discussion and say something like:
>doesn’t trumps reliance on the unitary executive theory concern you? Even IF trump is an outsider and Washington needs an outsider to halt institutional inertia, aren’t you concerned we’re just going to get more of the same Patriot act, secret court orders, and Scalia level legal arguments about why it’s not illegal if the president does it? Aren’t you concerned that if we agree with principles like that.. a day might come where a president uses it to send the army to collect all the citizens guns?
Now see the difference? One is just screeching and an emotional reaction to lack of agreement. The other is a critique that can be parlayed into an actual discussion. You’ve been asked several times to make your case in the second form… and it’s starting to look like you’re just not capable
>you you you reddit
KEK ok. You had it figured out back when you were 13. Seriously, back when I was 13, I used to be a moron. If you take your shit back at that time seriously, it says a lot about you.
There are multiple anons pointing out you're a moron and the "13yo" isn't as much of a banger as your moron mind seems to think.
>back when I was 13, I used to be a moron
You still are.
Lead us to greatness, wise edgy teenager.
>I used to be a moron
>used to be
>t. a moron
>y-you moron
>dude can't even use a dictionary
>looks up the word prophecy
>this means I was right about the universe willing Paul to be the savior of the Fremen
moron.
People see it both ways, anon. That is the whole point. If you think that book has a single aspect to it and it is still good, it is not. That is why you got so butthurt about it. What I don't get is why you are so invested in defending your 13 yo self.
>People see it both ways, anon. That is the whole point
It's literally contrary to plot elements within the book you absolute idiot. The universe didn't will Paul to save the Fremen. Frick you're stupid.
>contrary to plot elements
Yes, it not the only reading. You missed one and got all butthurt about it. I got both and the other dudes are all butthurt about it too because they didn't got it either.
>Yes, it not the only reading.
See
>You missed one and got all butthurt about it.
No you except you were filtered by the actual plot and themes of the book.
If anything the series kind of draws you in thinking it's going to be a young boy adventure novel, but then it intentionally turns the tables on a lot of that stuff.
Yes, but even then, it doesn't raise any deep inquiries about anything. Would you read it again when you are 40 years old? It isn't an "adult" book. Do you really think that there is a lot to miss if you are an adult? It is like that dude read it back when he was 13, then he got some understanding of it, he might be back to it when he is 20, and get another one, and that is basically it.
You missed plot elements and an entire theme that was present in the novel.
bruh
>Identify the gender dynamics in the book. Look at how men and women are portrayed and represented, and consider the power dynamics between them. Are there any stereotypes or gender roles that are reinforced or challenged?
>Analyze the language and imagery used in the book. Look for any language or imagery that reinforces gender stereotypes or that promotes a patriarchal worldview. Consider how the author uses language to describe men and women, and whether there are any differences in how they are portrayed.
>Consider the historical and social context of the book. Think about the time period in which the book was written and how this might have influenced the author's perspective on gender. Consider the social and cultural context of the book, including any relevant issues related to gender inequality or women's rights.
>Look for examples of feminist themes or perspectives in the book. Consider how the book might challenge or subvert traditional gender roles and stereotypes, and look for examples of female empowerment or agency.
>Critique the book from a feminist perspective. Consider the ways in which the book might perpetuate or challenge patriarchal norms and values. Think about how the book might contribute to larger discussions about gender and power in society.
>By following these steps, you can gain a deeper understanding of the gender dynamics in the book and develop a more nuanced and critical perspective on the text.
>The point is that he's using mysticism to manipulate the Fremen. He's the result of what's basically a conspiracy by the Bene Gesserit to breed a super human--they spread myths that were in line with their plan throughout the universe and Paul uses one of them to take advantage of the Fremen and manipulate them toward his ends (i.e. destroying the Harkonnen and dethroning the Emperor). Also, the outcome is ad hoc because Paul wasn't supposed to be the Kwisatz Haderach.
You act as if they act most absolutely acting on their whole volition, but have you ever wondered how a "prophecy" would happen? It would be exactly like that, and where does it come from? It is something like the "will of the universe" or something. It just happens to be written considering the point of view of Paul.
So no, he isn't a "prophet." He's engineered to have powers and takes advantage of false myths in order to control the Fremen toward specific purposes. You can naggle over the term "prophet" but the point is that he's using these things to manipulate people and events toward certain ends. He's calculating but this doesn't mean he's a evil figure or isn't heroic--these plot elements add enrich characterization and add thematic depth to the plot.
I don't think you understand what that means, it would imply a higher order than him, something beyond him, he is just a tool, thinking that he is using the freemen as a tool.
>The movie made the Atreides more unidimensional in their heroicism so I'm guessing a lot of morons are going to come away with the take that Paul is actually a mystical profit.
To be fair, most readers of the book have come away with that dumb take for decades. It's not just the latest movie doing the legwork for them; most people are simply not critical readers.
>To be fair, most readers of the book have come away with that dumb take for decades
I never really discussed the book before so I wouldn't have noticed. Thanks for pointing that out.
You can see even of the current Goodreads page many of the negative reviews of the book are precisely critical of the story because they don't like how this is just a "chosen one" story played straight, according to them. A few samples:
>I also couldn't care less about how fawningly amazing Paul is and how he is destined to be the chosen one.
>The plot felt like two separate books, while being peppered with themes of glorifying colonialism, white saviors, and lack of agency for most of the women.
>The plot is straightforward and follows a 'Chosen One' pattern.
>my thoughts on this book are so conflicting. Is it about white-saviorism or is it a critique of white-saviorism? Who knows?
>I was annoyed for a lot of the book that Paul had all of these special mental abilities that supposedly had never been had by men before, only women, and Paul was such an arrogant twerp anyway that I strongly disliked him being some kind of Chosen One.
Most of the negative reviews are just (unfairly, imo) critical of the writing and surprisingly the worldbuilding, but this specific recurring idea in critiques of the book always made me chuckle because it's the complete anthithesis of what Herbert was saying.
Holy shit those are bad. Reminds me moron of anon:
. Modern English Degrees just programme midwits with a rubric they can tie to anything and buzzwords to they regurgitate in order to make it seem like they have a take when they don't. "People don't have ideas, ideas have people" sort of thing.
This is tangential, but it is interesting to me to consider if Paul himself is a heroic character. Within the framing of just him as a man, not a messiah
>Paul’s family gets wrecked unfairly
>Part of him loves his fremen life and Chani
>Part of him wants to avenge his father and reclaim what was lost
>he starts to seek revenge, partly prompted by Gurneys return
>realizes at some point getting his revenge on the harkonnens requires he take the throne
>taking the throne means giving up the life he enjoys, marrying someone he doesn’t even like, breaking Chanis heart
>also the good chance he destroys the fremen way of life he has come to love and unleashed a bloodbath on the galaxy
>becomes a slave to his visions, a slave to his throne
>something finally breaks and he decides to say “frick it, I’ll go into the desert and die a free man”
In a way, walking alone into the desert with nothing is what he did all those years ago that led to this. It’s what made him a man and led him to the things he loved. So is it an “old man and the sea” type noble death, where he “dies having lost but fought well, dreaming of lions” OR is he king of a coward who didn’t have the strength to become the god emperor and left it to his son? I honestly don’t remember the sequels with perfect clarity so I’m open to other interpretations. And I’m considering Paul the individual, not Paul the messiah, or Paul the kwisatz haderach… if that makes sense
>So is it an “old man and the sea” type noble death, where he “dies having lost but fought well, dreaming of lions” OR is he king of a coward who didn’t have the strength to become the god emperor and left it to his son?
I think more the former, but there's a certain style of cowardice to it as well - better described as Paul not having the stomache to go through with what is necessary.
In a very indirect sense beyond the first book Paul can be seen as a tragic hero insofar as he does at least make an effort to do the right thing.
He knows he has to fulfill the role which has been conspired for him, but he sees how brutal and violent the Golden Path will be, and thus wants to alter it so he can still lead humanity through the future extinction without personally committing the atrocities he is required to do.
But even in the first book we see that although he can tweak details, he is utterly powerless to change the trajectory of events, unless he were to do equally horrific acts as those he is trying to avoid. For example when he changes his foreseen name to be Paul Muad'dib to keep his humanity in the epithet he will rule by, but sees that the jihad still awaits in the future, he realises that the only possible thing at this point he could do to avert the jihad would be to kill everyone in the cave with him at that moment, including his own mother.
I think a certain very valid lens to view the narrative through is that of humanity vs. machinery, but the machinery in this case isn't robots, it's very human machinations like the plots of the Bene Gesserit, the macrocosmic flows of culture and economy and politics. Just like Jessica injected humanity into the BG breeding plan by giving Leto the son he wanted because her love for him was greater than her loyalty to the BG, Paul is trying to inject his own humanity into the Golden Path, but he fails. And then his son must pick up and ultimately become the true Kwisatz Haderach who carries out the full realisation of the Golden Path.
Paul is empowered when he is fulfilling the prophecies and avenging his family and acting like a chosen one is expected to, but he is most human when he is trying and failing to escape the prophecy because he doesn't want the full burden of what he is accepting.
how did the Bene Gesserit would know Paul and Jessica would wind up in Arrakis so far back in the past that they had time to plant the myths about him? This is never explained
They planted such myths all over the known universe and Arrakis is important because it has spice, moron. Paul is the grandson of Baron Harkonnen who was in control of Arrakis. Jessica was supposed to have a daughter to marry to another Hakonnen as per the programme but she had a son instead. Jessica/Paul take advantage of the Bene Gessert myths, they weren't specifically about them, in order to manipulate the Fremen and use them against the Harkonnen and Emperor.
You didn't actually read the book, did you?
I did read the book, it is just that the myth is just too specific. The Bene Gessiri would have to know decades before that Jessica would betray them and give Leto a son insted of a daughter
>it is just that the myth is just too specific
The myth isn't specific, moron. It just says that a messiah will appear who will know your ways and lead you to victory over your oppressors. As stated, they seeded these myths across the known universe.
>the Bene Gessiri would have to know decades before
Decades? moron confirmed.
>that Jessica would betray them and give Leto a son insted of a daughter
Are you being moronic on purpose?
The BG were setting things up for the kwisatz haderach, they knew a man with powers would come along and know the future. But they were setting things up so they could control and use him. Paul was that but just one generation too early bc Jessica loved the Duke more than she trusted the BG. It’s not like the prophecies we’re throwing darts in the dark, it was just a slightly faster timeline
>the myth is just too specific
The entire point of the myths is that they are NOT specific, but are open to interpretted and built upon by the locals, but the important details stick around so that Bene Gesserit or their affiliates (like Paul) are trained to act in a way that earns a literally religious degree of subservience from the people. All they have to do is fall into certain patterns and the locals will draw all the necessary conclusions on their own.
Arrakis is one of the most important planets in the galaxy, and the BG were known to plant myths in places they might need them for whatever reason. It’s like saying “but why did the kgb want to plant a bug in the White House? It never says explicitly why they would do it… so this is a plot hole”
>t.speedreader-kun
Thanks lad. I was just about to start reading dune but i guess i wont have to now. homosexual.
Would it have been good? For the record i liked hyperion and culture series.
But he wasn’t the chosen one. He was a deliberate distortion of prophecy and he fricked up the world so bad he had to change the future by fusing with worms so his future children as halfbreed godlike entities could direct events in a better direction.
Weird flex to not “get” a classic influential scifi series
Isn't Duncan ultimately the Kwisatz Haderach or some shit? I'm not going to pretend I read those ones his son wrote.
Sounds like you can’t enjoy things anon
>everyone in nerd circles jerks off Dune
>decide to try it
>the writing is atrocious
>it's genuinely worse than Harry Potter
I'm embarrassed for everyone in this thread.
It is a pretty mid book if you are going for a strict materialistic version of it. No better than FMA.
Man, I should actually read Full Metal Alchemist. I used to love that anime.
Lead us! You figured the prophecy back when you were 13. You are the chosen one.
>t. filtered by Dune as an adult
>can't use a dictionary
Well, I'm talking to you, aren't I?
>last word battle because moron was BTFO'd by a novel most people understand as a teen
You were filtered, moron.
>filtered
People see it both ways, you are just being stupid and thinking that there is only yours. I saw both, exposed both, and you are butthurt about it for I don't know what reason.
It is a dumb reading of it. So is committing to the other one.
It's literally correct. The book is about political manipulation and ecology. It's not about a chosen saviour saving the world.
It goes both ways, a lot of people think like you all do, and otherwise. I caught both. Why are you so butthurt about it?
>I can't support the claim that the universe willed Paul to save the Fremen
>I'm going to write the same thing again and hope no one notices
It's obvious you were filtered by the fact Paul was manipulating the Fremen and the thematic implications this had for the book, moron.
>ancient people
>always fricking irrelevant
>some dude shows up
>suddenly they start taking shit over
... I'm sure that this is Paul making shit up, he manipulates them and that has nothing to do with anything, anyone else would pull that shit out.
>Bene Gesserit sowed myths into the cultures of various planets
>one of them was the most important planet in the universe (of course)
>that "some dude" is literally the product of the breeding programme
>"he knows our ways as if born to them"
>[he literally fakes knowing about their culture by researching it before he arrived]
>[his mother is privy to the myths and almost fricks it up at one point but is saved by a zealot interrupting her]
>he literally sees that he might frick things up by using the Fremen but decides to do it anyway
>he does frick things up and the Fremen even try to assassinate him in the next book
You forgot to prove how the universe willed him to save the Fremen, moron. I just explained the plot to you above. Want some quotes that relate to the themes you missed?
>still misses the point
There are two possible interpretations of it, as I said.
This isn't the only possible one, and you would have to take into account: "how would it look like to be a on a messiah POV". I'm just explaining this because I'm honestly starting to feel bad about you, it seems that you are joking, but there are some others who are serious.
There aren't two interpretations of it, moron. Again, prove that the universe willed Paul to become the savior of the Fremen. You can't and in fact it's literally spelled out in the book that he is smaller than the false myth and damages them. Here are quotes:
>"And Paul saw how futile were any of his efforts to change any smallest bit of this. He had thought to oppose the jihad within himself, but the jihad would be. His legions would rage out from Arrakis even without him. They needed only the legend he already had become."
This quote is in regard to Paul's loss of control due to the religious zealotry he intentionally inspired within the Fremen. He knew that this might happen but needed the Fremen to destroy the Harkonnen and dethrone the Emperor. He's not actually a messiah who is leading them; it is the false legend he took advantage of that now wills them forward toward destruction. The legend is bigger than the truth. It also underscores the fact Paul cannot actually control the future and fails to manage the path of the Fremen.
>"In that instant, Paul saw how Stilgar had been transformed from the Freman naib to a creature of the Lisan-al-Gaib, a receptacle for awe and obedience. It was a lessening of the man, and Paul felt the ghost-wind of the Jihad in it."
This quote shows how one of the major characters in the novel was negatively changed by Paul's manipulation. The myth made Stilgar, a once proud and inspiring leader to the Fremen, into an empty "receptacle" and "lessened" him. This man was once close to Paul and a guiding figure but has been reduced due to the false narrative Paul sold him on.
See, moron? Now prove the the universe was willing Paul and he wasn't simply manipulating the Fremen using a tool that the Bene Gesserit had sown into the fabric of their culture. Go ahead. You can't.
If you can understand "both" ways of interpretting the book, then please provide any amount of proof for the other interpretation.
I think that anon is just an idiot who missed important parts of the conversation. He's confusing the idea that because Paul is successful it means the prophecy came true (a really simplistic take he's quite frankly an idiot to think anyone could miss). However, the point of the conversation is that the other anon tried to say the universe willed Paul into freeing the Fremen. This ignores plot points that completely contradict it (e.g. Paul sees multiple futures and the universe isn't willing anything) and can't address the thematic consequences of Paul's manipulation (which is actively shown to be such in the plot) and the negative impact of this on the Fremen (i.e. if he's supposed to do what he did it undermines the moral consequences of his actions).
>People see it both ways, you are just being stupid and thinking that there is only yours.
The universe didn't will Paul to be the savior of the Fremen, idiot. Go ahead and explain how I'm wrong about him manipulating the Fremen using the fake psyop seeded by the Bene Gesserit and that he was an actual messiah the universe willed, despite the fact it's a key plot device that there are multiple futures and the universe doesn't will anything, in order to save them.
He's going to post that because Paul was successful he's a messiah. He won't back up the claim that the universe willed Paul to save the Freman because it's not in the book. He's trying to backtrack and save face because he was filtered by the actual plot of the novel.
Imagine not changing anything since you were a teenager.
>6 of them are him
>he thinks this means it's ok
Kek, moron. How hot is it in Brazil?
You're still more wrong now than this guy was at 13 though. That's the thrust of the problem.