- perhaps also Constantine VII if he counts as Roman,
"now when the barbarians come to you asking for these silks and israeliteels (to take bits of relics to make crowns of their own), you tell them No and tell them that God has cursed people who wear these silks and israeliteels to erupt with boils on their face."
I read all of Plautus last year and in general I'd just say he's pretty vulgar. If you read the handful of his best plays you get the general sense of his works.
The loss of so much ancient poetry makes me seethe every time I think about it. Such a wide but harmonious range of works of pure, primitive beauty, and all we have left is "shadows of a magnitude".
[...]
I thought he was just copying Homer.
>invented the fabula praetexta
Ok, Naevius is based.
[...] >kino
Literally very true, it's basically a "cinematized" version of Homer where the focus is more on imagery and maximizing moments of high emotion, rather than crafting a deep dramatic structure. They're both great, just very different.
[...]
Were the Romans the first to do picaresque or did it exist in late Greek novels as well? Seems like a form that comes from a certain degree of decadence.
>The loss of so much ancient poetry makes me seethe every time I think about it.
Tell me about it. Some of the blind spots in what we're missing are insane, we don't have a single complete play of Menander's who influenced all subsequent Greek/Roman comedy. What I wouldn't give for the Library of Alexandria to have survived.
Sounds like the most traditional form of comedy to me. But I guess what you're saying about him kinda helps mitigate the loss of some of the other works - a good portion of it was probably just ancient schlock.
11 months ago
Anonymous
we don't have a single complete play of Menander
Yes we do.also like half a dozen more or less complete. Plautus is as good as menander, menander is predictably a little more cute. Plautus relies more on dramatic irony which sometimes is too forced. Menader has a more natural flare.
Yes we do.also like half a dozen more or less complete. Plautus is as good as menander, menander is predictably a little more cute. Plautus relies more on dramatic irony which sometimes is too forced. Menader has a more natural flare.
What are some of your favorite poems/quotes from Horace?
I've only read Satires and Odes but there's a lot of great stuff, I'm now trying to reread some of them along with the original text in order to get the sound element.
If any punishment, Barine, for your violated oath had ever been of prejudice to you: if you had become less agreeable by the blackness of a single tooth or nail, I might believe you. But you no sooner have bound your perfidious head with vows, but you shine out more charming by far, and come forth the public care of our youth. It is of advantage to you to deceive the buried ashes of your mother, and the silent constellations of the night, together with all heaven, and the gods free from chill death. Venus herself, I profess, laughs at this; the good-natured nymphs laugh, and cruel Cupid, who is perpetually sharpening his burning darts on a bloody whetstone. Add to this, that all our boys are growing up for you; a new herd of slaves is growing up; nor do the former ones quit the house of their impious mistress, notwithstanding they often have threatened it. The matrons are in dread of you on account of their young ones; the thrifty old men are in dread of you; and the girls but just married are in distress, lest your beauty should slacken [the affections of] their husbands.
If any punishment, Barine, for your violated oath had ever been of prejudice to you: if you had become less agreeable by the blackness of a single tooth or nail, I might believe you. But you no sooner have bound your perfidious head with vows, but you shine out more charming by far, and come forth the public care of our youth. It is of advantage to you to deceive the buried ashes of your mother, and the silent constellations of the night, together with all heaven, and the gods free from chill death. Venus herself, I profess, laughs at this; the good-natured nymphs laugh, and cruel Cupid, who is perpetually sharpening his burning darts on a bloody whetstone. Add to this, that all our boys are growing up for you; a new herd of slaves is growing up; nor do the former ones quit the house of their impious mistress, notwithstanding they often have threatened it. The matrons are in dread of you on account of their young ones; the thrifty old men are in dread of you; and the girls but just married are in distress, lest your beauty should slacken [the affections of] their husbands.
Another fun one:
TO PYRRHUS.
Do you not perceive, O Pyrrhus, at what hazard yon are taking away the whelps from a Gutulian lioness? In a little while you, a timorous ravisher, shall fly from the severe engagement, when she shall march through the opposing band of youths, re-demanding her beauteous Nearchus; a grand contest, whether a greater share of booty shall fall to thee or to her! In the mean time, while you produce your swift arrows, she whets her terrific teeth; while the umpire of the combat is reported to have placed the palm under his naked foot, and refreshed his shoulder, overspread with his perfumed locks, with the gentle breeze: just such another was Nireus, or he that was ravished from the watery Ida.
If any punishment, Barine, for your violated oath had ever been of prejudice to you: if you had become less agreeable by the blackness of a single tooth or nail, I might believe you. But you no sooner have bound your perfidious head with vows, but you shine out more charming by far, and come forth the public care of our youth. It is of advantage to you to deceive the buried ashes of your mother, and the silent constellations of the night, together with all heaven, and the gods free from chill death. Venus herself, I profess, laughs at this; the good-natured nymphs laugh, and cruel Cupid, who is perpetually sharpening his burning darts on a bloody whetstone. Add to this, that all our boys are growing up for you; a new herd of slaves is growing up; nor do the former ones quit the house of their impious mistress, notwithstanding they often have threatened it. The matrons are in dread of you on account of their young ones; the thrifty old men are in dread of you; and the girls but just married are in distress, lest your beauty should slacken [the affections of] their husbands.
I think what I like about these ones is the combination of petty social drama and very understated shades of a higher aesthetic. Ironic juxtaposition, but done with a gentle, winking touch.
When you try to conceal your wrinkles, Polla, with paste made from beans, you deceive yourself not me. Let a defect, which is possibly but small, appear undisguised. A fault concealed is presumed to be great.
Marcus Valerius Martialis
The loss of so much ancient poetry makes me seethe every time I think about it. Such a wide but harmonious range of works of pure, primitive beauty, and all we have left is "shadows of a magnitude".
Oh and virgil was basically copying Naevius. The Aenied is a thinly disguised retelling of Naevius' Bellum Poenicum
I thought he was just copying Homer.
>invented the fabula praetexta
Ok, Naevius is based.
The Aeneid is pretty kino. Would recommend rereading it a few times to really soak in Virgil’s genius. It’s a masterpiece.
>kino
Literally very true, it's basically a "cinematized" version of Homer where the focus is more on imagery and maximizing moments of high emotion, rather than crafting a deep dramatic structure. They're both great, just very different.
Pure kino.
Were the Romans the first to do picaresque or did it exist in late Greek novels as well? Seems like a form that comes from a certain degree of decadence.
>Were the Romans the first to do picaresque or did it exist in late Greek novels as well?
The very first is a little remembered Greek novel called Dafnis and Khloi from around 200 AD.
11 months ago
Anonymous
Doesn't seem all that picaresque to me looking at the wiki page since all the characters seem to be connected, but I will take your word for it. Greece was pretty decadent at that point anyway I guess, and pastoral and picaresque have always been more or less closely connected (both being associated with decadent periods like imperial Rome and the Renaissance).
Anyon here read lucan?
Did the Greeks ever have historical epics or only mythological? Very interesting point of difference there.
Pope: Essay on Criticism (Dunciad for a fun fictionalized polemical application)
Sidney: Defence of Poesy
I’m sure there are many others but those are the big ones I can think of in terms of poems making general comments about poetry. But I think Horace also wrote one of his satires as a sort of defense of satirical poetry, it’s probably in the first book.
Pope: Essay on Criticism (Dunciad for a fun fictionalized polemical application)
Sidney: Defence of Poesy
I’m sure there are many others but those are the big ones I can think of in terms of poems making general comments about poetry. But I think Horace also wrote one of his satires as a sort of defense of satirical poetry, it’s probably in the first book.
Oh and Archibald MacLeish wrote a modernist Ars Poetica, and Kenneth Koch one that you could maybe call "postmodern" but I don't know if that would really be accurate.
Great book but it’s historical fiction written in the 20th century by a Frenchwoman. Not really Roman lit
It’s thoroughly researched and historically accurate. The nuanced fictional part is on the exact thoughts of the man, or what he wished to put down on paper, but who didn’t write any such memoir of course.
Oh! You mean it isn’t from Roman latin literature. Nm
obviously not, not even counting medieval literature. i'm sure some gay can dig up obscure authors but all the greatest latin literature was written in roman times by romans.
I think it's some 95% of what we do have is medieval. But taste is subjective anyway, you might cry tears of joy over the Attic Nights or Richer of Saint Remi's history. Whatever you like, man.
Bumping with question again: who is next best after Virgil, Ovid, and Horace? (Maybe Catullus should be excluded too since he seems like the most popular of the non-Golden Age poets)
Reading the Aeneid right now, and rereading some Horace and Tibullus. What's your take on Terence?
I prefer Plautus, Terrence is actually making Menandearin plots less interesting with all the added contrivinces. Plautus is a straight shooter
Marcus Valerius Martialis and Cassius Dio
- perhaps also Constantine VII if he counts as Roman,
"now when the barbarians come to you asking for these silks and israeliteels (to take bits of relics to make crowns of their own), you tell them No and tell them that God has cursed people who wear these silks and israeliteels to erupt with boils on their face."
>Terrence
It's Terrentius, ..please.. Terrence sounds fricking gay
ha this is.. true
>He's Egyptian.
He's more likely a Macedonian-Egyptian. His little facial features are far more Adriatic; the nose, the eyes, the chin, the ears.
I read all of Plautus last year and in general I'd just say he's pretty vulgar. If you read the handful of his best plays you get the general sense of his works.
>The loss of so much ancient poetry makes me seethe every time I think about it.
Tell me about it. Some of the blind spots in what we're missing are insane, we don't have a single complete play of Menander's who influenced all subsequent Greek/Roman comedy. What I wouldn't give for the Library of Alexandria to have survived.
>pretty vulgar
Sounds like the most traditional form of comedy to me. But I guess what you're saying about him kinda helps mitigate the loss of some of the other works - a good portion of it was probably just ancient schlock.
we don't have a single complete play of Menander
Yes we do.also like half a dozen more or less complete. Plautus is as good as menander, menander is predictably a little more cute. Plautus relies more on dramatic irony which sometimes is too forced. Menader has a more natural flare.
he's the author of my favorite quote
Which one
currently reading
are there any chudjak edits of a roman chud saying "the west has fallen"?
That shitskin isn't Roman. He's Egyptian.
Your mom would pay a good buck to suck that shitskin's dick.
Blows my mind that Germanics were incapable of drawing like that Egyptian for another thousand years.
You're most likely much less attractive than that dude.
Mooooods!!! The germanoid ape escaped its cage again!
You don't know what it meant to be Roman.
Juvenal is funny af. Apuleius is cool af too. The Satyricon is light a light, airy, festive atmosphere. Catullus is pretty cool too
next thing you're gonna tell me there's a roman tragedy author named "jimmy"
i think Apuleius is pretty cool
Bumping with a question:
What are some of your favorite poems/quotes from Horace?
I've only read Satires and Odes but there's a lot of great stuff, I'm now trying to reread some of them along with the original text in order to get the sound element.
Here's an interesting one:
TO BARINE.
If any punishment, Barine, for your violated oath had ever been of prejudice to you: if you had become less agreeable by the blackness of a single tooth or nail, I might believe you. But you no sooner have bound your perfidious head with vows, but you shine out more charming by far, and come forth the public care of our youth. It is of advantage to you to deceive the buried ashes of your mother, and the silent constellations of the night, together with all heaven, and the gods free from chill death. Venus herself, I profess, laughs at this; the good-natured nymphs laugh, and cruel Cupid, who is perpetually sharpening his burning darts on a bloody whetstone. Add to this, that all our boys are growing up for you; a new herd of slaves is growing up; nor do the former ones quit the house of their impious mistress, notwithstanding they often have threatened it. The matrons are in dread of you on account of their young ones; the thrifty old men are in dread of you; and the girls but just married are in distress, lest your beauty should slacken [the affections of] their husbands.
Another fun one:
TO PYRRHUS.
Do you not perceive, O Pyrrhus, at what hazard yon are taking away the whelps from a Gutulian lioness? In a little while you, a timorous ravisher, shall fly from the severe engagement, when she shall march through the opposing band of youths, re-demanding her beauteous Nearchus; a grand contest, whether a greater share of booty shall fall to thee or to her! In the mean time, while you produce your swift arrows, she whets her terrific teeth; while the umpire of the combat is reported to have placed the palm under his naked foot, and refreshed his shoulder, overspread with his perfumed locks, with the gentle breeze: just such another was Nireus, or he that was ravished from the watery Ida.
I think what I like about these ones is the combination of petty social drama and very understated shades of a higher aesthetic. Ironic juxtaposition, but done with a gentle, winking touch.
When you try to conceal your wrinkles, Polla, with paste made from beans, you deceive yourself not me. Let a defect, which is possibly but small, appear undisguised. A fault concealed is presumed to be great.
Marcus Valerius Martialis
Anyone read Silius’ Punica? How does it compare with other long poems?
Naevius was better byt no longer exists 🙁
Oh and virgil was basically copying Naevius. The Aenied is a thinly disguised retelling of Naevius' Bellum Poenicum
The loss of so much ancient poetry makes me seethe every time I think about it. Such a wide but harmonious range of works of pure, primitive beauty, and all we have left is "shadows of a magnitude".
I thought he was just copying Homer.
>invented the fabula praetexta
Ok, Naevius is based.
>kino
Literally very true, it's basically a "cinematized" version of Homer where the focus is more on imagery and maximizing moments of high emotion, rather than crafting a deep dramatic structure. They're both great, just very different.
Were the Romans the first to do picaresque or did it exist in late Greek novels as well? Seems like a form that comes from a certain degree of decadence.
>i thought he was just copying Homer.
Yeah but so was Naevius 200 years earlier
>Were the Romans the first to do picaresque or did it exist in late Greek novels as well?
The very first is a little remembered Greek novel called Dafnis and Khloi from around 200 AD.
Doesn't seem all that picaresque to me looking at the wiki page since all the characters seem to be connected, but I will take your word for it. Greece was pretty decadent at that point anyway I guess, and pastoral and picaresque have always been more or less closely connected (both being associated with decadent periods like imperial Rome and the Renaissance).
Did the Greeks ever have historical epics or only mythological? Very interesting point of difference there.
Very underwhelming, at least in spanish
>ywn read Sulla's autobiography and enjoy page after page of greek twinks orgies
>Sulla's autobiography
no such thing. Go back to sea, Fimbria.
You wanna get proscribed son
Is Horace's Art of Poetry good?
It's pretty great as an exposition of the aesthetics of the era and how they corresponded with its morals, and it's very short and enjoyable to read.
any follow-ups or things to read before it?
preferably follow ups.
Pope: Essay on Criticism (Dunciad for a fun fictionalized polemical application)
Sidney: Defence of Poesy
I’m sure there are many others but those are the big ones I can think of in terms of poems making general comments about poetry. But I think Horace also wrote one of his satires as a sort of defense of satirical poetry, it’s probably in the first book.
Oh and Archibald MacLeish wrote a modernist Ars Poetica, and Kenneth Koch one that you could maybe call "postmodern" but I don't know if that would really be accurate.
The Aeneid is pretty kino. Would recommend rereading it a few times to really soak in Virgil’s genius. It’s a masterpiece.
Anybody read this?
Great book but it’s historical fiction written in the 20th century by a Frenchwoman. Not really Roman lit
Yes
It’s thoroughly researched and historically accurate. The nuanced fictional part is on the exact thoughts of the man, or what he wished to put down on paper, but who didn’t write any such memoir of course.
Oh! You mean it isn’t from Roman latin literature. Nm
Aww yes my favorite Greek larper.
>Roman lit only
In terms of Latin literature, I hear some anons here saying that the best written works weren't even made by the Romans. Is this so?
obviously not, not even counting medieval literature. i'm sure some gay can dig up obscure authors but all the greatest latin literature was written in roman times by romans.
I think it's some 95% of what we do have is medieval. But taste is subjective anyway, you might cry tears of joy over the Attic Nights or Richer of Saint Remi's history. Whatever you like, man.
I thought that was Al Pacino
Pure kino.
Anyon here read lucan?
I quite enjoy Augustine his writing is really easy to read for being 1500 years old
Bumping with question again: who is next best after Virgil, Ovid, and Horace? (Maybe Catullus should be excluded too since he seems like the most popular of the non-Golden Age poets)
Martial