I have 64GB of RAM, I don't give a shit if whatever program needs 4GB to run. Unused RAM is wasted RAM. 64 GB of RAM costs like 50 bucks, just don't be poor.
where and more importantly shipped from where?
t. WA and the cheapest I can find without rolling the "buy from dodgy c**t on ebay or some chinkshit factory" is ple
2 months ago
Anonymous
I paid like $150 strayabucks for good large RAM, it definitely comes cheaper than that
>"buy from dodgy c**t on ebay or some chinkshit factory" *dice* is ple
Could be worse, they could be using WinUI3. The sad thing is that Microsoft jeets have made indirection in native code so bad, it's even worse than WPF ... which ran mostly in managed code. You can actually get a more responsive UI by embedding an entire browser in your application than using modern Microsoft APIs.
WinUI jeets are proud when they can scroll a data grid at a whole 53 fps. This shit is what is pushing electron/webview.
Truly. Yeah I know it has been trendy to shit on MS and Win32 as "legacy curst!" but there is nothing faster, nothing! when you have a WinVista/7-10(32bit) and yes there are Win10(32) ISOs out there and then slap some autist app put together in asm and C++ with pur Win32 in mind. I've done something similar for more than a few clients with limited hardware and where top speed was and low latency was paramount and Win32 is god-tier!
When there is a better tool, I will consider switching. Electron just werks, it just werks with the regular frontend stuff everybody knows. Yeah, it's heavy. But it saves countless hours of dev time because literally everybody knows at least a little web front end.
Alright, what should I use?
Requirements: >windows+mac+linux >handles DPI scaling (including fractional scaling) perfectly and automatically >supports platform accessibility features >can easily customise the look and feel >licensing situation isn't a headache (no GPL basically)
Well, not quite impossible. I can just use Electron.
(I don't like RUNNING electron apps either, but I'm guilty of writing one. Hopefully it's clear why. If someone makes something better, we'll use that instead.)
Sciter looks interesting, especially the latest version which seems to use regular JS instead of the custom JS-like language the old versions used. It seems to be basically Electron but lighter weight. Might consider it if I start a new GUI project.
I'm beginning to think that no one would b***h about Electron and Electron-likes ever if it wasn't synonymous with the follies of these "devtime-first" Black folk who are inattentive and wasteful IN GENERAL.
Or, put another way, I don't really care if you build with webtech, I care if I run your program and it's entirely glossy, slow, bloated Reactshit that doesn't feel or perform like any desktop app should.
Because they are all born from this >2015 Sillycon Valley mentality that client resources are infinite, complexity is natural, and user frustration and experience doesn't matter. If it were easy to, they'd instantly frick everything with Qt as well.
You know what, my mother might have coped when Slack was a poorly built piece of shit, the mentally ill teenagers may cope when Discord is a poorly built piece of shit. But when you are on MY machine, you will behave, you will use the resources I graciously provide you wisely, you will be a delight to use, and at the first sign of you treating my time, sanity, and RAM like a commodity, you will be shown the door.
The problem is that electron is just working off the current idea that you need high velocity. At most the client side suffering is due to the “troubles of the commons” with all these companies, but nobody is going to lag behind simply because their developers want to “do it properly” (aka self indulgence masturbation work at the same rate of pay). Electron lets you have high productivity and relative quality with less expensive devs than say C#, C++, or Java, so it’s a no brainer.
You use the native UI libraries of each operating system like everyone did for decades before this webdev shit came along.
homies say this then wonder why Linux had no programs other than some buggy FOSS shit. Electron is the sole reason Linux is even viable as an OS since getting devs to spend 80% of their time on a 2% market share is insanity. Until Linux sorts its shit out, Electron is its only viable option
>electron is just working off the current idea that you need high velocity >less expensive devs
So, yes, the Sillycon Valley mentality. Building great software would take skilled developers (or becoming one by learning) and a bit more time, so let's get some Fiverr Indian to make the mediocre.
I don't even know what to tell you; some people will focus on making great lasting software and some people will eternally work on proof-of-concepts just usable enough to get to suck off some venture capitalist and lead along a stalkholmed userbase.
Don't get it twisted, the other people you replied to indeed have the wrong idea. To some degree, yes, you should make good engineering decisions to save time and speed up the process of going from idea-in-head to working program. No one serious should build their own game engine from scratch, bespoke language, bespoke cross-platform UI framework... etc.
But don't look at me and proclaim business wisdom when you cut every corner possible. That's the marketing people thinking, that's the good times and weak men.
>Electron is the sole reason Linux is even viable as an OS
That's the thing, why the frick is it electron specifically? why not use webview or something similar? did we have to package a whole browser per app? X is literally a server over sockets, why wouldn't your app start a server so you can use it in any browser you like?
Did the whole webdev ecosystem get filtered by feature incompatibility through different browsers? is that how we got all the way to bundling the whole OS for one single application to deploy it?
Fricking pathetic.
2 months ago
Anonymous
Freetards absolutely can't wrap their minds around this. People who make important software want it to JUST WORK.
By relying on shit like webview, you are introducing dependency issues. Oh, the webview engine changed from what it was 5 years ago? I guess this program no longer works. Freetards at this point throw their arms in the air and try to gaslight you into believing old bad new good updoot every day and shit like that.
Proper developers say, frick you, I'm guaranteeing this program works on this version of chromium, and you're getting both, you just have to click on an icon. Also, if there are issues, I can test it and time.
Dependency hell on Linux is the joke of the century. This is why it will never be a proper desktop os. Electron solves this.
>that you make yourself
Why make one yourself when we have DearImgui? Shit literally has bindings for everything.
https://github.com/ocornut/imgui/wiki/Bindings#language-bindings
>Immediate mode UI
I really like using imgui and have even wrote an internal non-game tool that uses it.
However it doesn't really support DPI scaling or accessibility APIs, so it's only really suited for quick and dirty debug stuff (its original use case) and not for polished professional software that will be seen by end users.
I know imgui isn't the only option but I think the other popular ones are in a similar state. >that you make yourself
No. I need to focus on my application. If I have to reinvent every wheel I rely on then I'll never ship anything.
You use the native UI libraries of each operating system like everyone did for decades before this webdev shit came along.
No, that's a non-starter. I absolutely will not write three separate GUIs when tech exists that allows me to write only one.
>I absolutely will not write three separate GUIs when tech exists that allows me to write only one.
Then your software will have a shit UI compared to other software that uses native UI libraries. On Mac OS especially, apps that use that native Cocoa API feel a lot better and more robust to use than anything else.
Xojo is commercial but cheap compared to Qt, with no GPL entanglements or limitations on what you ship. Native controls on windows+mac+linux, native binaries on x86/ARM. It does have some limitations to consider before starting a project. Example: the Xojo runtime is not thread safe so the built in threads are cooperative and an app is single core. (There is support for worker apps.) Aside from that it's pretty nice for cross platform desktop apps.
electron is a browser so first point is irrelevant as it's still running within one
second point is wrong in many ways
irrelevant
yea make something easier to use that uses less ram then, gay
>Every single line of JavaScript ever written should have been written in Tcl (wrapping C code). This is the worst timeline.
ftfy
Also, it very very nearly happened.
>CORS
The web was better when standards were just unilaterally created and imposed by Microsoft instead of crafted by a committee of wankers. >b-but muh monopoly
We live in a monopoly just the same, except now it's Google Chrome instead of Microsoft Internet Explorer.
I'm beginning to think that no one would b***h about Electron and Electron-likes ever if it wasn't synonymous with the follies of these "devtime-first" Black folk who are inattentive and wasteful IN GENERAL.
Or, put another way, I don't really care if you build with webtech, I care if I run your program and it's entirely glossy, slow, bloated Reactshit that doesn't feel or perform like any desktop app should.
Because they are all born from this >2015 Sillycon Valley mentality that client resources are infinite, complexity is natural, and user frustration and experience doesn't matter. If it were easy to, they'd instantly frick everything with Qt as well.
You know what, my mother might have coped when Slack was a poorly built piece of shit, the mentally ill teenagers may cope when Discord is a poorly built piece of shit. But when you are on MY machine, you will behave, you will use the resources I graciously provide you wisely, you will be a delight to use, and at the first sign of you treating my time, sanity, and RAM like a commodity, you will be shown the door.
>If it were easy to, they'd instantly frick everything with Qt as well.
Qt is the exact opposite of Electron. Applications built with it are generally fine, but it's hell to build anything large in it.
Stop making it so easy to develop for, or rather stop making other ecosystems suck so much to develop for that the only viable solution is a fricking web browser.
Any alternative you could propose is simply more expensive. Work to make that statement false, or else you're just part of the problem.
actually I hope everything becomes a web browser
even the kernel should be a web browser that launches another web browser that allows the user to launch more web browsers
You will never be a real programmer. You have no compiler, you have no linker, you have no native binaries. You are a web page designer twisted by boot camps and programmer socks into a crude mockery of Electrical Engineering perfection.
All the "ratings" you get are two-faced and half-hearted. Behind your back people mock your apps. Your parents are disgusted and ashamed of your memory footprint, your "friends" laugh at your ghoulish performance just blinking a cursor.
Engineers are utterly repulsed by you. Thousands of hours of education have allowed EE graduates to sniff out frauds with incredible efficiency. Even electron apps that "pass" look unnatural and run slow for them. Your CSS "UX" is a dead giveaway. And even if you manage to get a drunk engineer to download your app, he'll turn tail and bolt the second he sees you need a GB for a single tab.
You will never be happy. You wrench out a fake smile every single morning and tell yourself it's going to be OK, but deep inside you feel the depression creeping up like a weed, ready to crush you under the unbearable weight.
Eventually it'll be too much to bear - you'll take a class, test for a cert, change your resume, and plunge into the cold abyss of sysadmin. Your parents will find you, heartbroken but relieved that they no longer have to live with the unbearable shame and disappointment. They'll uninstall your apps, and every day for the rest of their lives launch native binaries from real developers. Your software will decay and fall off the app store, and all that will remain of your legacy is a USB thumb drive with backup source code to what is clearly a web page.
This is your fate. This is what you chose. There is no turning back.
Rendering with javascript/html is not the issue, it's the massive backend bloat, including the fact that every application bundles with its own node runtime. there are lots of solutions for desktop webviews which aren't so moronicly bloated, I have no idea why people use electron except that they can use javascript as the backend language. backend javascript is so fricking moronic and has never been legitimately justified.
>Rendering with javascript/html is not the issue,
Eh...the DOM sucks, both in terms of memory footprint and performance. Always has. It's the end result of evolving a simple markup spec into a grand page description language and then evolving that into an interactive UI framework.
>the DOM sucks, both in terms of memory footprint and performance
This.
Kids (zoomies) have no concept of how many orders of magnitude of performance are lost by all the layers of absolute dogshit moron software abstractions.
Not a big fan of electron, but NodeJS in the backend is based as frick. The whole web frontend ecosystem is pure cancer, though. Layers of layers of layers of abstraction, transpilers, compilers, minimizers, optimizers and 500 npm packages for a fricking dynamic website.
i use nodejs. it’s better than writing fricking python
no it isn't
I just use a browser on Linux with arkenfox and firejail.
I have 64GB of RAM, I don't give a shit if whatever program needs 4GB to run. Unused RAM is wasted RAM. 64 GB of RAM costs like 50 bucks, just don't be poor.
>costs like 50 bucks
$110 for the cheapest crap. stop spreading disinformation.
Found the amerimutt
I paid like $150 strayabucks for good large RAM, it definitely comes cheaper than that
where and more importantly shipped from where?
t. WA and the cheapest I can find without rolling the "buy from dodgy c**t on ebay or some chinkshit factory" is ple
>"buy from dodgy c**t on ebay or some chinkshit factory" *dice* is ple
paid $150 for 2x32GB DDR4 3200 CL16 last year
But itoddlers have soldered ram. A macbook air can only run one electron app plus the os.
64 GB DDR4 costs 120 Euro
also why are you poor, I have 128GB of DDR5. Stop being poor anon.
You're a moronic Black person and don't deserve a computer.
'ick on the 'eck
god just imagine knowing what his discord name is
Could be worse, they could be using WinUI3. The sad thing is that Microsoft jeets have made indirection in native code so bad, it's even worse than WPF ... which ran mostly in managed code. You can actually get a more responsive UI by embedding an entire browser in your application than using modern Microsoft APIs.
WinUI jeets are proud when they can scroll a data grid at a whole 53 fps. This shit is what is pushing electron/webview.
It's really impressive how Microsoft manages to make every new UI framework significantly worse than the ones before it.
Win32 supremacy.
>Win32 supremacy.
Truly. Yeah I know it has been trendy to shit on MS and Win32 as "legacy curst!" but there is nothing faster, nothing! when you have a WinVista/7-10(32bit) and yes there are Win10(32) ISOs out there and then slap some autist app put together in asm and C++ with pur Win32 in mind. I've done something similar for more than a few clients with limited hardware and where top speed was and low latency was paramount and Win32 is god-tier!
I just discard every software made with electron.
I like Electron because it lets me run your meme apps in my browser instead of installing it :^)
When there is a better tool, I will consider switching. Electron just werks, it just werks with the regular frontend stuff everybody knows. Yeah, it's heavy. But it saves countless hours of dev time because literally everybody knows at least a little web front end.
It’s just easier to deal with, app stuff has a bunch of boilerplate you have to do and it’s a bit of a pain in the arse.
Ive considered Tauri but it uses Rust as a backend so frick that if I need to fix something
Alright, what should I use?
Requirements:
>windows+mac+linux
>handles DPI scaling (including fractional scaling) perfectly and automatically
>supports platform accessibility features
>can easily customise the look and feel
>licensing situation isn't a headache (no GPL basically)
Electron
With those requirements? Impossible
Well, not quite impossible. I can just use Electron.
(I don't like RUNNING electron apps either, but I'm guilty of writing one. Hopefully it's clear why. If someone makes something better, we'll use that instead.)
Sciter looks interesting, especially the latest version which seems to use regular JS instead of the custom JS-like language the old versions used. It seems to be basically Electron but lighter weight. Might consider it if I start a new GUI project.
Immediate mode UI library that you make yourself
have a nice day autist, people got shit to do
The problem is that electron is just working off the current idea that you need high velocity. At most the client side suffering is due to the “troubles of the commons” with all these companies, but nobody is going to lag behind simply because their developers want to “do it properly” (aka self indulgence masturbation work at the same rate of pay). Electron lets you have high productivity and relative quality with less expensive devs than say C#, C++, or Java, so it’s a no brainer.
homies say this then wonder why Linux had no programs other than some buggy FOSS shit. Electron is the sole reason Linux is even viable as an OS since getting devs to spend 80% of their time on a 2% market share is insanity. Until Linux sorts its shit out, Electron is its only viable option
>electron is just working off the current idea that you need high velocity
>less expensive devs
So, yes, the Sillycon Valley mentality. Building great software would take skilled developers (or becoming one by learning) and a bit more time, so let's get some Fiverr Indian to make the mediocre.
I don't even know what to tell you; some people will focus on making great lasting software and some people will eternally work on proof-of-concepts just usable enough to get to suck off some venture capitalist and lead along a stalkholmed userbase.
Don't get it twisted, the other people you replied to indeed have the wrong idea. To some degree, yes, you should make good engineering decisions to save time and speed up the process of going from idea-in-head to working program. No one serious should build their own game engine from scratch, bespoke language, bespoke cross-platform UI framework... etc.
But don't look at me and proclaim business wisdom when you cut every corner possible. That's the marketing people thinking, that's the good times and weak men.
>Electron is the sole reason Linux is even viable as an OS
That's the thing, why the frick is it electron specifically? why not use webview or something similar? did we have to package a whole browser per app? X is literally a server over sockets, why wouldn't your app start a server so you can use it in any browser you like?
Did the whole webdev ecosystem get filtered by feature incompatibility through different browsers? is that how we got all the way to bundling the whole OS for one single application to deploy it?
Fricking pathetic.
Freetards absolutely can't wrap their minds around this. People who make important software want it to JUST WORK.
By relying on shit like webview, you are introducing dependency issues. Oh, the webview engine changed from what it was 5 years ago? I guess this program no longer works. Freetards at this point throw their arms in the air and try to gaslight you into believing old bad new good updoot every day and shit like that.
Proper developers say, frick you, I'm guaranteeing this program works on this version of chromium, and you're getting both, you just have to click on an icon. Also, if there are issues, I can test it and time.
Dependency hell on Linux is the joke of the century. This is why it will never be a proper desktop os. Electron solves this.
>that you make yourself
Why make one yourself when we have DearImgui? Shit literally has bindings for everything.
https://github.com/ocornut/imgui/wiki/Bindings#language-bindings
>Immediate mode UI
I really like using imgui and have even wrote an internal non-game tool that uses it.
However it doesn't really support DPI scaling or accessibility APIs, so it's only really suited for quick and dirty debug stuff (its original use case) and not for polished professional software that will be seen by end users.
I know imgui isn't the only option but I think the other popular ones are in a similar state.
>that you make yourself
No. I need to focus on my application. If I have to reinvent every wheel I rely on then I'll never ship anything.
No, that's a non-starter. I absolutely will not write three separate GUIs when tech exists that allows me to write only one.
>I absolutely will not write three separate GUIs when tech exists that allows me to write only one.
Then your software will have a shit UI compared to other software that uses native UI libraries. On Mac OS especially, apps that use that native Cocoa API feel a lot better and more robust to use than anything else.
>Immediate mode UI library
Is this one good?
https://github.com/pyimgui/pyimgui
>that you make yourself
Got no time for that.
Flutter comes close
You use the native UI libraries of each operating system like everyone did for decades before this webdev shit came along.
QT
GTK works too.
>inb4 GPL
It spicifically is licensed under LGPL for homosexuals like (You).
Xojo is commercial but cheap compared to Qt, with no GPL entanglements or limitations on what you ship. Native controls on windows+mac+linux, native binaries on x86/ARM. It does have some limitations to consider before starting a project. Example: the Xojo runtime is not thread safe so the built in threads are cooperative and an app is single core. (There is support for worker apps.) Aside from that it's pretty nice for cross platform desktop apps.
PyQT
Html css js and tauri
electron is a browser so first point is irrelevant as it's still running within one
second point is wrong in many ways
irrelevant
yea make something easier to use that uses less ram then, gay
>JavaScript was not meant to be run outside of browser
but anon electron is a browser
>extra 4gb of ram
this meme needs to die, it's like 300 mb per application, and it's 2024, 32gb ram sticks cost about 50 bucks
There is a reason why microsoft ditched electron for Teams, now app runs 2x faster and consumes half the memory at runtime.
Frick electron.
>microsoft ditched electron for Teams
WebView2 is literally the same thing with a different name, my Black person.
No
Every single line of JavaScript ever written should have been written in Lua(wrapping C code). This is the worst timeline.
>Every single line of JavaScript ever written should have been written in Tcl (wrapping C code). This is the worst timeline.
ftfy
Also, it very very nearly happened.
Tcl my balls
this, LuaJIT should've won, it's faster, better and superior
did js have some obscure feature that LuaJIT didn't have at that time?
Well LuaJIT didn't exist at the time.
>Every single line of JavaScript ever written should have been written in ActionScript 2.0. This is the worst timeline.
ftfy
failed captcha 6 times
>PWA
not distributable
>.html files
castrated
You can thank CORS for electron existing.
>CORS
The web was better when standards were just unilaterally created and imposed by Microsoft instead of crafted by a committee of wankers.
>b-but muh monopoly
We live in a monopoly just the same, except now it's Google Chrome instead of Microsoft Internet Explorer.
I'm beginning to think that no one would b***h about Electron and Electron-likes ever if it wasn't synonymous with the follies of these "devtime-first" Black folk who are inattentive and wasteful IN GENERAL.
Or, put another way, I don't really care if you build with webtech, I care if I run your program and it's entirely glossy, slow, bloated Reactshit that doesn't feel or perform like any desktop app should.
Because they are all born from this >2015 Sillycon Valley mentality that client resources are infinite, complexity is natural, and user frustration and experience doesn't matter. If it were easy to, they'd instantly frick everything with Qt as well.
You know what, my mother might have coped when Slack was a poorly built piece of shit, the mentally ill teenagers may cope when Discord is a poorly built piece of shit. But when you are on MY machine, you will behave, you will use the resources I graciously provide you wisely, you will be a delight to use, and at the first sign of you treating my time, sanity, and RAM like a commodity, you will be shown the door.
>If it were easy to, they'd instantly frick everything with Qt as well.
Qt is the exact opposite of Electron. Applications built with it are generally fine, but it's hell to build anything large in it.
what will happen to proton?
Stop making it so easy to develop for, or rather stop making other ecosystems suck so much to develop for that the only viable solution is a fricking web browser.
Any alternative you could propose is simply more expensive. Work to make that statement false, or else you're just part of the problem.
actually I hope everything becomes a web browser
even the kernel should be a web browser that launches another web browser that allows the user to launch more web browsers
It's fricking depressing when HTML+JS is the least insane GUI framework.
You will never be a real programmer. You have no compiler, you have no linker, you have no native binaries. You are a web page designer twisted by boot camps and programmer socks into a crude mockery of Electrical Engineering perfection.
All the "ratings" you get are two-faced and half-hearted. Behind your back people mock your apps. Your parents are disgusted and ashamed of your memory footprint, your "friends" laugh at your ghoulish performance just blinking a cursor.
Engineers are utterly repulsed by you. Thousands of hours of education have allowed EE graduates to sniff out frauds with incredible efficiency. Even electron apps that "pass" look unnatural and run slow for them. Your CSS "UX" is a dead giveaway. And even if you manage to get a drunk engineer to download your app, he'll turn tail and bolt the second he sees you need a GB for a single tab.
You will never be happy. You wrench out a fake smile every single morning and tell yourself it's going to be OK, but deep inside you feel the depression creeping up like a weed, ready to crush you under the unbearable weight.
Eventually it'll be too much to bear - you'll take a class, test for a cert, change your resume, and plunge into the cold abyss of sysadmin. Your parents will find you, heartbroken but relieved that they no longer have to live with the unbearable shame and disappointment. They'll uninstall your apps, and every day for the rest of their lives launch native binaries from real developers. Your software will decay and fall off the app store, and all that will remain of your legacy is a USB thumb drive with backup source code to what is clearly a web page.
This is your fate. This is what you chose. There is no turning back.
Rendering with javascript/html is not the issue, it's the massive backend bloat, including the fact that every application bundles with its own node runtime. there are lots of solutions for desktop webviews which aren't so moronicly bloated, I have no idea why people use electron except that they can use javascript as the backend language. backend javascript is so fricking moronic and has never been legitimately justified.
>Rendering with javascript/html is not the issue,
Eh...the DOM sucks, both in terms of memory footprint and performance. Always has. It's the end result of evolving a simple markup spec into a grand page description language and then evolving that into an interactive UI framework.
>the DOM sucks, both in terms of memory footprint and performance
This.
Kids (zoomies) have no concept of how many orders of magnitude of performance are lost by all the layers of absolute dogshit moron software abstractions.
Not a big fan of electron, but NodeJS in the backend is based as frick. The whole web frontend ecosystem is pure cancer, though. Layers of layers of layers of abstraction, transpilers, compilers, minimizers, optimizers and 500 npm packages for a fricking dynamic website.
>but NodeJS in the backend is based as frick
>https://www.npmjs.com/package/is-odd
>7 versions
>millions downloads
kek
Holy shit. People really need a library that does a simple modulus calculation?
i run discord and spotify in a chrome tab now, no reason to use them standalone
javascript should not even be run inside a browser
Why?