This art is not exactly Inca, but a mishmash of many different Andean cultures. There are Wari-style patterns in their clothes and in the lower wall, there is a drawing of the monolith of Chavin in the upper wall, and they are all in the coastal city similar to the Moche ones.
Yeah, i'm aware of the Huari and Chavin style architectural accenting.
How is the clothing, though, i'm curious. Some of the human figures on the top guy's tunic remind me more of earlier nazca, paracas, etc style stuff then what i've seen from the Inca, I guess?
Herget's Mesoamerican art is sort of a mixed bag. His Aztec priest art is actually pretty good but then sometimes he mixes Maya, Teotihuacano, and Aztec stuff up or just reconstructs it/interprets it in a very old fashioned way even if not mixing cultures, but considering most of his stuff was done in the early 20th century I guess that's to be expected
>spanish christcucks
se nota que eres un indio de mierderú, del pueblo conocido como lima, que es casi tan marrón como el color de tu aborigen piel de comepapas
>be incan subject, some aymaran-adjacent tribe living in a cozy highland village >royal inspector comes into your village for a census >sees your shitty household shrine near the hearth, assume it's an undisclosed idol unshipped to Cuzco (highly illegal) because he's no fricking local (he's the second degree cousin of the Emperor) and can't make the difference between a box and a mummified ancestral corpse >comes back two days later with soldiers from the nearby tambo station >orders your village razed, the """Waka""" seized and your family disseminated throughout the Four Provinces in different """work camps"""" >dies from working in their carries >praise Inti
I'll be the first at praising the Inca Empire as one of the only non-dysfunctional state in the America's, but what you're claiming is just stupid and wrong
what's dysfunctional about most states in mesoamerica or the andes compared to greek or mesopotamian city-states?
>much sacrifices
and? london was hanging people for bringing leeks into town, not much better, especially since in mesoamerica at least your big empires tended to just existing local kings in power and didn't mess with local administration as long as taxes got coughed up
Though I guess you could argue that created it's own sort of dysfunction with subjects and vassals opportunistically switching sides and trying to play one another/their capitals to pursue their own political interests
most societies in the Americas had little cohesion. Even Mesoamerican city-states/leagues lacked common ground, despite having similar founding myths and adjacent religions.
In contrast, Cuzco actually transformed a pretty disparate mix of city-states, tribes and petty kingdoms using different languages and venerating different idols into following the will of a singular ruler, using Quechua as a linga franca, and starting to actually worship the same god. That they did so without writing, the wheel and iron tools, in one of the most hardy environment for empire building, and with examples of attempt at expanding this methodology of rulership, unlike the Mesoamericans and the Cahokians, in contrast, beyond their native mountains of the Andes and into the Patagonian pampas is just head and shoulder above the city-states of Mexico and Honduras.
That and the fact that despite Plagues scathing their population left and right and being embroiled in a civil war, they still attempted to resist the Spaniards and made it damn hard on them. It's commendable, if anything
most societies in the Americas had little cohesion. Even Mesoamerican city-states/leagues lacked common ground, despite having similar founding myths and adjacent religions.
In contrast, Cuzco actually transformed a pretty disparate mix of city-states, tribes and petty kingdoms using different languages and venerating different idols into following the will of a singular ruler, using Quechua as a linga franca, and starting to actually worship the same god. That they did so without writing, the wheel and iron tools, in one of the most hardy environment for empire building, and with examples of attempt at expanding this methodology of rulership, unlike the Mesoamericans and the Cahokians, in contrast, beyond their native mountains of the Andes and into the Patagonian pampas is just head and shoulder above the city-states of Mexico and Honduras.
That and the fact that despite Plagues scathing their population left and right and being embroiled in a civil war, they still attempted to resist the Spaniards and made it damn hard on them. It's commendable, if anything
As a comparable, it would be akin to the Raetians somehow unifying under a divinely-ordained monarchy, conquering all of the Alps, including the Lepontic, Vindelicii, Norii, and Helvetii tribes living there, integrating them, and then beginning forays into Cisalpine Gaul, in the span of less than a century. It's precedented, but still pretty damn impressive.
>london was hanging people for bringing leeks into town, not much better
Punishing criminals, detering criminals for the sake of preserving order and civility.
Versus
>sacrificing people by thousands at a time literally, so that you'd have rain and goodluck
you're moronic, arent you?
But the only time in Mesoamerican history that human sacrifice may have reached the scale of "thousands at a time", it was the result of a military promotion system, and the victims were all just enemy soldiers who in normal circumstances would have just bled out on the battlefield instead
So was Japan, tbh
Neo-incan rebels often used guns and cannons stolen from the Spanish dead, UNLIKE the Aztecs
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Japan also got conquered by the USA because of that same reason, the difference in technology.
The incas stole some guns and cannons.
So what? did they now how to make powder for example? Or could they produce more guns or cannons? Also think that the conquistadors were little groups of mercenaries not an army. Imagine the incas defeat many of those groups of conquistadors, eventually the europeans will settle in another place of america and sent a big army of tens of thousands of soldiers and hundresds of cannons etc. and would have defeatead the incas anyway. Also the plague was going to frick them up anyway too. The difference in technology was too big for them to win.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Now hypothetically had they lingered on for longer time it is possible that they could have found support from some other European nations.
Europeans have a habit of working against each other and there were several nations more than happy to undermine Spanish Empire.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
What happened to the tribes in north america that got guns from europeans to fight against other europens? Once they were used as pawns they were also submitted by their supposed allies.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Japan is still a good example against you; they had >90% technological parity with the allies, and there is strong evidence they'd have even successfully developed the atom bomb first were their resources not divided between two competing, politicized programs (army command vs naval command).
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
I'm talking about when the USA showed up in their coast with a modern army and they still had mostly a medieval army and the japanese had to surrender due to the difference in technology. If Japan wouldn't have isolated so much and trade with other nations maybe they would have developed their armed forces and made them be at the same level of the USA or the euroepan countries. I think that it's pretty easy to understand, if you isolate yourself and don't learn from the advances in technology that are happening around the world you become weaker.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
That wasn't a conquest, sailing in and scaring a nation into submission, and actually invading, occupying and subjugating a nation are two very different things.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
The result was almost the same. The USA imposed some trade rules to Japan and they had to accept. You don't need to occupy all the country to make a country submit to you. It happened to Japan in 1945 again.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
You can't compare it at all in this scenario, there's zero guarantee that USA could've annexed Japan into an overseas American empire like the Spanish did Peru.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
What is your point because I'm lost now. You don't need to occupy a country to control it. Look at China when it was controlled by the europeans just controlling it's ports as another example.
I think it's very very basic the idea that if you isolate yourself and you are not in contact with technological advances then you become weaker. Imagine that the romans could have sailed to America and contact the incas bringing them all the new technologies. The incas could have become a vassal kingdom of the romans for a while and then get independent and be too powerful for the spanish to submit them.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Tell me how you think it was at all possible for the Spaniards to control the Incas without conquering them then? I really don't see how it was possible, the important cities were all high in the Andes and Spain nearly lost after having already kidnapped the god emperor by some divine fluke and using it as a free pass into Cusco.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
How did the europeans controlled China wihtout having to occupy all it's territory? Japan too.
I start building forts along your coast and from time to time I go and frick you up your citites so you stay weak. Eventually I buy your king and I control you like that.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>How did the europeans controlled China wihtout having to occupy all it's territory? Japan too.
they didn't. china was never controlled by europeans. you are equivocating in order to simulate having some sort of point in favor of 'antiimperialism'.
How far were they from becoming like the Romans? Their infrastructure and clothing look like early Latin/Roman level already. How long until they reached Roman Republic level?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
God what I would give to witness how Amerindian societies would've progessed without eurocucks...
biggest issue was not their lower technology but that their population crashed and they get ravaged by diseases just before their contact with pizarro
it was also main reason why they were in the middle of succession crisis
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Look whatever it's so simple to understand that the difference in technology between the inca and the europeans were so big that they didn't had a chance.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
demography was more important
some local tribes resisted Spaniards longs after Incas fallen and if they still have demography then it would eventually turned the way of India or other Asian countries go
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
it doesn't matter if you have a lot of people throwing me arrows when I have cannons, guns and many more much advanced weapons
eventually they were going to lose
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
early technological advantage wasn't that great, sure later when you had spear chukkers vs machine guns then yes but before that?
if instead of diseases and Pizarro(who was fricking AMD gambler) they got Jesuits and some traders they would survive probably long enough to face machine guns and modern artillery
Comanches resisted Spanish approach well enough(until another wave of diseases fricked them up)
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
you are just delusional, all of America was conquered by europeans, tell me why then
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
to be fair wasnt it diseases that killed like 80-90% of them across north and south america. that surely had to help
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
the all powerful comanche empire!
where is it now?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
also the spaniards would have done like with the aztecs and pay other little kings to fight against the inca emperor and divide and conquer, and then kill the pawns, look what they did with the aztecs with a little group of mercenaries
the tribes were moronic, imagine thinking that you can trust a people that is much more powerful than you to when the common enemy is defeated that they are not going to kill you next xd
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
the locals used the foreigners to fight oppressive hegemony, they fought Cortez before and were sure that they can handle him one way or another
what happen after conquest was another matter
you are just delusional, all of America was conquered by europeans, tell me why then
demography mostly, diseases that crashed local population and social order and local power structures, technological advantage wasn't that great, although horses were really important
the all powerful comanche empire!
where is it now?
their population crashed and they never recovered
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
ok so basically it was pure luck and it was the diseases that won, same old story
bad luck the incas were in their way to become ROME in the fricking 1500s xd
they didn't even have writing or the wheel xd
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
it wasn't pure luck, lack of immunity of indios population would fricked them sooner or later
their empires would get ravaged by diseases, depopulated and conquered by some adventurers sooner or later
IF they had immunity the situation would be different
also at that time Europe was producing really high amount of surplus population which was expandable and could afford expansion, colonization and conquest
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
are you aware that Europe also suffered the black death in the 1300s where like almost 50% of the population died?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>bad luck the incas were in their way to become ROME in the fricking 1500s xd
That doesn't make sense, their timelines don't cross at all and aren't analogous because they were completely isolated from each other. Like layman normies use "Stone Age", "Bronze Age" "Iron Age" as some kind of metric for a societies overall advancement but thats a chronological diagnostic for Eurasia and maybe Africa, it's not a term to denote a civilizations overall advancement. >they didn't even have writing or the wheel xd
Again, the implication here being that technological development is linear, when it isn't
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>ok so basically it was pure luck and it was the diseases that won
If you actually gave a frick about researching a historical topic before discussing it then this sentiment wouldn't sound so ridiculous to you.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
They were going to get conquered sooner or later. If not by Spain in the 1500s it would have been France, the UK or other european country later on.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
It was Spain leading by example and striking a shit load of gold that even made other Europeans interested in the new world, if Cortes fails (like he nearly did several times and like multiple would be conquistadores did before him) then Spain wouldn't bother trying again, hell Cortes' expedition was illegal and he only got away with it cos he won and made Spain rich. If all he failed then all he would've done was make more Mesoamerican states hostile against Spain (and better adapted to dealing with European weaponry and tactics). And you're insane if you think Spain wasn't going to start trading weapons for Aztec gold (and missionary access) after they had a couple expeditions all go disastrously wrong.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Start selling them weapons would be a very moronic thing. You are making them stronger when you could just take the land. And who is going to protect the missionaries there?, do you think that the aztecs with how much fanatics they were with their religion and how old it was that they were going to accept missionaries spreading another religion in their empire?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
anon
you ever heard about slave trade in africa or fur trade in NA?
guess what was traded for slaves and furs?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>22 million in mexico alone
Lol. Lmao even. Low iq individuals such as yourself have no right to an opinion. God has not blessed your kind with the gift of logic and reason. This probably played a part in why your ancestors killed newborn babies and ate their flesh in the hopes it would rain.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>t. illiterate moron high on his own farts
both primary sources and research prove high numbers
you shut your trap and don't speak about logic you full of shit midwit
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>They concluded that their research documented a demographic catastrophe, "one of the worst in the history of humanity." Their point estimates show the native population imploding from 25.2 million in 1519 to 6.3 million by 1545, 2.5 in 1570, and bottoming out at 1.2 million in 1620. Their reconstruction is widely accepted, indeed, it has become a paradigm to describe the devastation of European conquests elsewhere in the Americas and Oceania.
https://users.pop.umn.edu/~rmccaa/mxpoprev/cambridg3.htm#:~:text=They%20concluded%20that%20their%20research,at%201.2%20million%20in%201620.
>stone age mexico had a population 50% greater than renaissance france because...uhhh...it just did ok!!?!
you can quote more garbage estimates shilled by decrepit academics, youre only further proving me right in my initial statement
>22 million in mexico alone
Lol. Lmao even. Low iq individuals such as yourself have no right to an opinion. God has not blessed your kind with the gift of logic and reason. This probably played a part in why your ancestors killed newborn babies and ate their flesh in the hopes it would rain.
im sorry to have to break this to you, but since clearly no one else has up to this point; you are low iq and should stick to manual tasks or sports-related hobbies. this is just pitiful to read. like watching a child jump off the roof believing he can fly like superman because the funny colours box in his living room said so.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
yes, your "talents" are better suited to spongebob, or children's cartoons in general.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>an entire thriving, highly urbanized, agricultural 3000 year old civilization couldn't possibly have had a larger population than a single cold feudal kingdom in Europe because...they used le normal rocks instead of le shiny rocks!
The absolute state of metal brains
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
[...] >stone age mexico had a population 50% greater than renaissance france because...uhhh...it just did ok!!?!
you can quote more garbage estimates shilled by decrepit academics, youre only further proving me right in my initial statement [...]
im sorry to have to break this to you, but since clearly no one else has up to this point; you are low iq and should stick to manual tasks or sports-related hobbies. this is just pitiful to read. like watching a child jump off the roof believing he can fly like superman because the funny colours box in his living room said so.
To be fair they weren't "Stone Age" by any metric in terms of urbanism/development but also by that standard they still weren't because they did have metallurgy, mainly copper/bronze and obviously gold/silver. See
>bad luck the incas were in their way to become ROME in the fricking 1500s xd
That doesn't make sense, their timelines don't cross at all and aren't analogous because they were completely isolated from each other. Like layman normies use "Stone Age", "Bronze Age" "Iron Age" as some kind of metric for a societies overall advancement but thats a chronological diagnostic for Eurasia and maybe Africa, it's not a term to denote a civilizations overall advancement. >they didn't even have writing or the wheel xd
Again, the implication here being that technological development is linear, when it isn't
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
low iq + romanticised identitarian delusions are an explosive combination.
https://i.imgur.com/rC7C38z.jpg
[...]
To be fair they weren't "Stone Age" by any metric in terms of urbanism/development but also by that standard they still weren't because they did have metallurgy, mainly copper/bronze and obviously gold/silver. See [...]
the mexica tribes did not use bronze. there are a handful of artifacts found that date to not more than a century before the arrival of the spanish. they had gold, silver and copper, which are the type of metals you would expect to work with if you had stone-age-level technology. granted they might have been past the stone age in the waste management department. but overall they clearly were not on the level of the bronze age egyptians, to give just one example.
skinned natives in the American continent
huh? i havent heard this
>shut the frick up dumb beanerjak party subhumanoid monstrosity
wew lad, i can nearly smell this post. i hate beans.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
yeah yeah, now can you kindly frick off back? Illiterate pop his moron?
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Nah they could/did work bronze. They've found artifacts of bronze tools in Aztec sites like Yautepec, although it was all imported from West Mexico which in turn is believed to have come from South America, and that goes back to about 600 AD they believe. And eventually the Mexica/Aztecs did adopt bronze working although of course they did use stone tools more overall like most of Mesoamerica >Postclassic Mesoamerica was heavily economically interconnected; West Mexico produced and exported bronze to the Aztecs and as far as Yucatan,(3) where wealthy and commoner alike could access it in highly integrated markets.(4)(5) And while many important mines were in the west, other regions had deposits of copper, tin, etc. that allowed for local production. Even the Maya had bronzeworking loci.
I've got some sources on this if you wanna learn more
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>I've got some sources on this if you wanna learn more >implying
great joke anon but the likes of him are to narrow minded to learn anything other than they already believe
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>mexica tribes
you clearly don't have a clue about what you're talking about
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
shut the frick up dumb beanerjak party subhumanoid monstrosity you were blown the frick out
>lightest skinned natives in the American continent >had the most successful empire
interesting...
other way around, though
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
they have really good agriculture
European population exploded after introducing Amerindian plants, same for china
Europe was at brink of constant starvation before that, potato and maize(corn) introduction to Europe was one of the reasons why industrial revolution started
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>They concluded that their research documented a demographic catastrophe, "one of the worst in the history of humanity." Their point estimates show the native population imploding from 25.2 million in 1519 to 6.3 million by 1545, 2.5 in 1570, and bottoming out at 1.2 million in 1620. Their reconstruction is widely accepted, indeed, it has become a paradigm to describe the devastation of European conquests elsewhere in the Americas and Oceania.
https://users.pop.umn.edu/~rmccaa/mxpoprev/cambridg3.htm#:~:text=They%20concluded%20that%20their%20research,at%201.2%20million%20in%201620.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
The Inca empire was like a trillion times more centralised than the Aztecs, and the Spaniards didn't even win over Aztec vassals at first, they allied with a statealready at war with the Aztecs and the vassals only switched to Spain's side last minute after Cortez had already practically won.
This is a recent sculpture of Mummy Juanita (also known as the Lady of Ampato or the Ice Maiden), the frozen body of a girl victim of an Inca sacrifice or capaccocha (royal sin). It isn't a mummy in the traditional sense, but due to the conditions it's extremely well-preserved, unlike the typical Andean mummy.
The body was discovered in a landslide triggered by the melting of a glacier atop the Ampato stratovolcano in Arequipa, Peru. Additionally, there is an even more exceptionally preserved frozen body, The Maiden, found undisturbed near the summit of Llullaillaco stratovolcano in Salta, Argentina.
Regarding the clothing of the bust, it features a ñañaca to cover the head, typical of women's attire. But I don't recall a prior reconstruction of Juanita wearing one (pic related), she was found adorned with a rare feathered headgear.
And this ñañaca kind of seems inspired by the ones women use today in the Inti Raymi and the like. Adrian Ilave, expert on Inca clothing, says that the traditional Inca ñañaca, in contrast to modern versions, was not as stiff and draped down the sides
And underneath the lliclla shawl, she wore an acso (the main women's cloth), not displayed on the bust. In some regions, the acso was a long tunic, but in Cusco (and elsewhere), it was a large, rectangular mantle wrapped around the body and fastened at the shoulders with pins, the style found with Juanita.
Btw the Incas maintained a monopoly on horizontal bands in clothing, commoners were mandated to use vertical bands instead.
Similarly, the nobility supposedly claimed exclusive rights to certain colors, like shades of red. Moreover, only nobility was allowed to wear clothing made from vicuña (wild camelid) wool, some of the finest in the world. The use of tocapu motifs was regulated as well. People were mandated to wear their ethnic attire, and impersonating the dress style of the Incas was punishable by death. Thinking back, many aspects of daily life were state-controlled (through a system of spies and state officials), and noncompliance was severely punished.
But returning to Inca clothing, textiles were categorized into:
Awaska, used for household purposes, had an approximate thread count of about 120 threads per inch and was typically made from llama wool.
And qunpi, the fine cloth, typically made from alpaca and vicuña wool (often mistaken/referred to as "silk" in early accounts). Qunpi was divided into two classes: One woven by male qunpikamayuq-kuna (keepers of fine cloth) and another woven by aclla-kuna ("chosen girls"). Imperial qunpi textiles boast thread counts of 600 or more per inch, a standard unmatched globally until the Industrial Revolution in the 19th century.
Reportedly, Atahualpa wore a new outfit each day, storing the used garments in boxes. At the end of each year, these clothes were collectively burned to prevent any possibility of bewitchment, or so he said.
Pic related, a couple of unku (male tunic), on the left an unku offering found among the grave goods of mummy Juanita. The cloth to the right is an unku used by commoners (see the vertical bands)
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
dayum. thats fascinating
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>vicuña wool (often mistaken/referred to as "silk" in early accounts)
And it continues to be very expensive
>Thinking back, many aspects of daily life were state-controlled (through a system of spies and state officials), and noncompliance was severely punished.
I still think the Incas were cool, but this is pretty dystopian. Quite the opposite of what OP was thinking of.
The Sapa Inca often had red hair. There’s also lots of ginger mummies from the pre-Incan cultures of the region like the Chinchorro, Paracas, and Nazca. Thor Heyerdahl wrote a book on the the subject.
If you were the Emperor of the Incas. Let's say you were their Justinian. What would you have done? Introduce a writing system? Make use of wheels? Reformed the Inti religion?
>Let's say you were their Justinian. What would you have done?
Not betray my best general and not letting my thot wife cuck me. Also not persecuting the philosophers of my empire.
>get pizaro outa the way >establish a more stable succession system >liquify the property rights of the dead (establish an elaborate system to bypass their land accumulation if i have to) >introduce markets along the major highways >establish an imperial currency based on gold >obtain euro techs like paper and guns via trade. the euros will eat up our gold like no tomorrow >hold things together as the diseases pass. maybe we could blame the ghostly white man for sending his curses and hexes upon us? >try to play euro powers off of eachother to get stable trade, although thats way off and i probably wont live to see that considering how buddy buddy portugal and spain are)
There we go now 500 smelly corpse looking motherfrickers wont be taking over the four corners. I would also introduce modern medicine and science and shiet but lets not get ahead of ourselves with anachronisms.
Obviously not a Utopia, that's just a fantasy. But they were pretty impressive. They had probably one of the most successful centralized economies, resisted the Spanish for decades, had kino architecture that baffles balding white boomers from the USA who insist Sacsayhuaman or Machu Picchu were built by aryans or aliens (i had a manager IRL who said such things) and like most Amerindian civilizations they were just really alien and unique. I mean they recorded data with knotted strings instead of using a writing script
They were prepared to hand over the keys to the kingdom to the people who they remembered as the founders of their entire culture. The Spanish did not know how to act the part because they themselves did not comprehend themselves as the children of God in the past age who were responsible for so much more than they knew.
>utopia
Hardly. It was a rudimentary palace/temple economy with a strictly enforced caste system. If you were a commoner, your sons could be taken by the state for several years of military service, while your daughters could be taken by the state to be distributed as wives or concubines for members of the higher castes (noblemen, soldiers or priests), or as human sacrifices. Like the other great historical palace/temple economy, ancient Egypt, the average person lived a noticeably shorter life than elsewhere in the world and suffered from stunted growth and physical debilitation due to forced labor and a low-protein, one-sided agricultural diet.
>Was the Inca Empire a utopia?
it was an aspiring totalitarian shithole akin to eastern european commie states, limited in its ambitions by logistics and lack of adequate technology.
so if the incas were in their way to become the Rome of the americas in the 1500s... when Europe was in the industrial revolution in the 1700s the incas would be at medieval europe level?? How does that work?
diseases helped a lot yes but they were going to get conquered sooner or later
all the fucing world, diseases or not, was conquered by europeans because they had better technology, maybe only china wasn't conquered fully
that is so easy to understand that is shocking that you don't get it
IF they demographic it would be like in case of India, China, Japan, maybe Persia or other Asiatic country
they would be colonized or reformed but even then in case of colonization they would kept their core population
but its only IF they had immunity that they didn't had
are you aware that Europe also suffered the black death in the 1300s where like almost 50% of the population died?
not to that extent, it go away eventually and their neighbors(Muslims and steppe nomads) also get ravaged by it(it really crushed steppe nomads which allowed Moscow to out mongols mongol remnants)
Europe demographic go on rapid growth after it
bro the indios kept their population, look at peru or bolivia what are you talking about? they were conquered and converted to christianity, end of story
>By 1620, the Andean Native population had declined by approximately 90 percent due to epidemics, war, and colonial exploitation
also this
https://i.imgur.com/FnPRR8n.png
the locals used the foreigners to fight oppressive hegemony, they fought Cortez before and were sure that they can handle him one way or another
what happen after conquest was another matter
[...]
demography mostly, diseases that crashed local population and social order and local power structures, technological advantage wasn't that great, although horses were really important
[...]
their population crashed and they never recovered
for mexico
there was reason why everyone was importing Black folks - simply locals were dying in mass
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
And Europe had the black death in the 1300s where 50% of their population died too. And many wars and invasions of the mongols and arabs and many others.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
yeah but it recovered quite fast and both mongols and arabs get fricked by it too
also 90+%>50%
indios never recovered and their population was ravaged by disease till xix century
compare this pic with
https://i.imgur.com/FnPRR8n.png
the locals used the foreigners to fight oppressive hegemony, they fought Cortez before and were sure that they can handle him one way or another
what happen after conquest was another matter
[...]
demography mostly, diseases that crashed local population and social order and local power structures, technological advantage wasn't that great, although horses were really important
[...]
their population crashed and they never recovered
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
Maybe europeans recovered fast because they had better societies.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
I suggest reading >Gunnar Heinsohn SECURITY IMPLICATIONS OF CHANGING DEMOGRAPHIC TRENDS
They recovered fast because black plague gone away eventually and because mass breeding
Imagine(if you can that you get black plague event every 10-20 years)
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
So imagine the incas didn't have the problem with smallpox. They defeat the first little groups of spaniards that arrive in the 1500s.
What happens next? Spain or other european country keeps sending armies from other parts of the continent where they are already settled.
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Spain or other european country keeps sending armies
maybe, maybe not also Incas actually had both population and don't have succession crisis, also they have plenty of silver that they can exchange for goods - both weapons and technology
It could go way of Japan when they simply close border and throw out foreigners(which would work until modern arms appear unless bongs start smuggling drugs to them)
3 weeks ago
Anonymous
ok, but do try to use correct verb tenses, because this way you sound like a caricature of an aboriginal from any number of XIXth century adventure books.
>communism doesn't wor-
Incans had no currency. They produced goods, which was collected in government warehouses which was then redistributed to the populous. The government did not tax its citizens with goods or currency, but rather with labor. This allowed impressive infrastructural projects to be completed wherever or whenever needed throughout the empire. If the Inca Empire lasted as long as the Romans, they would have outdid them.
>Was the Inca Empire a utopia
Gomez Suarez de Figueroa's book tacitly says it was, but Garcilazo only spent his childhood in Cusco and most of his life in Spain, he wrote several inaccuracies and he took a similar position to that of Blas Valera because he read Blas's account (now lost, for the most part) that he partially copied (plagiarized).
In his youth, he was quite influenced by his friend's father, Mansio Serra Leguizamon, nicknamed "the last Conquistador", who a very apologetic guy, this is what Serra's tomb says: >I wish Your Majesty to understand the motive that moves me to make this statement is the peace of my conscience and because of the guilt I share. For we have destroyed by our evil behaviour such a government as was enjoyed by these natives... beg God to pardon me, for I am moved to say this, seeing that I am the last to die of the Conquistadors.
Wtf is with American Mexicano in the farthest northern parts of the US having a strange fascination with and yearning for the pre-spanish Aztec religion to come back? They're parents aren't like this at all.
RE: OP
IRL The stairs prevent people from having the time and energy to move up or down from their station unless they have a specific reason or it's their job. It's not clear in this picture either, that the steps are MUCH larger, and considering the height of the locals, you can tell it was created this way specifically to gate keep the hierarchy.
The people at the top can literally look down on everyone. So it's like, being a god really. Managing the lower levels would be easier than other cities around the same time period. So it's no surprise some other groups would want to destroy it, and they won. So... it probably sucked living there for most people.
Other places in Peru are more livable, and less hierarchical physically, and they're still inhabited and modernized.
Sadly the original illustrations of Guaman Poma's letter are colorless.
But before writing his account, Poma was one of the indian artists who worked on Martin de Murua's book (Poma later denounced Murua in his writings).
Pic related, it is worth noting that the warrior in fig. 8a-b isn't the Inca king Pachacuti, often just referred to as Inca Yupanqui in several colonial accounts (like his son, causing confusion). Guaman Poma has a separate chapter of Inca kings, plus Guaman Poma says this warrior was "the first captain" who supposedly served as an army leader under the reign of Manco Capac, the first Inca king.
But in Murua's book, Guaman Poma drew him most certainly fighting a Chanca warrior, something the Inca Emperor Pachacuti was known for.
>Guaman Poma says this warrior was "the first captain"
Even though Poma gave him that title, Poma said that there were many others before him, but among the first ones, he was the one that stood out the most and for the sake of brevity, Poma only talked about him.
>most certainly fighting a Chanca warrior
The Chanca were known for their llautos (head cords) and the bird man is often seen in Inca-Chanca confrontations, the Chanca identified themselves with birds of prey, their most revered huacas (sacred whatever, usually stones for the case of the Incas) were connected to birds, the Hanan (upper) Chancas went to war carrying the mallqui (mummified ancestor) of Uscovilca (sacred buzzard), while the Hurin (lower) Chancas did the same with Ancovilca or sacred "eagle" (not true eagles around, actually a large hawk with an eagle-like appearance)
Pic related, Chanan Cori Coca, who used to be a famous warrior woman in Inca legends. She's depicted on the right side of the first 2 images, Chanan fought the Chancas during the reign of Pachacuti. Sometimes she is mistaken for the first Inca woman, Mama Ocllo/Mama Huaco, sometimes they are two separated women, sometimes one and the same, Mama Ocllo Huaco, Ocllo oftentimes has traditional womanly roles, while Huaco is a cunning military leader.
Latinx civilizations are overrated. All of these paintings are just cope. The natives were hardly better than barbarians. Hell the ones in Asia and Europe at least had metallurgy.
>pe roads causa
holy shit! a disguting latrinx abomination posting. Ew! Get it off me!
Can you post the full size pic on the top left?
Here's a high res version of the bottom left
This art is not exactly Inca, but a mishmash of many different Andean cultures. There are Wari-style patterns in their clothes and in the lower wall, there is a drawing of the monolith of Chavin in the upper wall, and they are all in the coastal city similar to the Moche ones.
Yeah, i'm aware of the Huari and Chavin style architectural accenting.
How is the clothing, though, i'm curious. Some of the human figures on the top guy's tunic remind me more of earlier nazca, paracas, etc style stuff then what i've seen from the Inca, I guess?
Herget's Mesoamerican art is sort of a mixed bag. His Aztec priest art is actually pretty good but then sometimes he mixes Maya, Teotihuacano, and Aztec stuff up or just reconstructs it/interprets it in a very old fashioned way even if not mixing cultures, but considering most of his stuff was done in the early 20th century I guess that's to be expected
I don't know about the clothing. Looks like some complete mix between basically all andean cultures lol
>H. M. Herget
Where can I see all his works and download them on my device with high resolution?
They would have become the Roman Empire of the Americas has it not been for the spanish christcucks
>spanish christcucks
se nota que eres un indio de mierderú, del pueblo conocido como lima, que es casi tan marrón como el color de tu aborigen piel de comepapas
Matate maricon blanco
>utopia
>be incan subject, some aymaran-adjacent tribe living in a cozy highland village
>royal inspector comes into your village for a census
>sees your shitty household shrine near the hearth, assume it's an undisclosed idol unshipped to Cuzco (highly illegal) because he's no fricking local (he's the second degree cousin of the Emperor) and can't make the difference between a box and a mummified ancestral corpse
>comes back two days later with soldiers from the nearby tambo station
>orders your village razed, the """Waka""" seized and your family disseminated throughout the Four Provinces in different """work camps""""
>dies from working in their carries
>praise Inti
I'll be the first at praising the Inca Empire as one of the only non-dysfunctional state in the America's, but what you're claiming is just stupid and wrong
what's dysfunctional about most states in mesoamerica or the andes compared to greek or mesopotamian city-states?
>much sacrifices
and? london was hanging people for bringing leeks into town, not much better, especially since in mesoamerica at least your big empires tended to just existing local kings in power and didn't mess with local administration as long as taxes got coughed up
Though I guess you could argue that created it's own sort of dysfunction with subjects and vassals opportunistically switching sides and trying to play one another/their capitals to pursue their own political interests
most societies in the Americas had little cohesion. Even Mesoamerican city-states/leagues lacked common ground, despite having similar founding myths and adjacent religions.
In contrast, Cuzco actually transformed a pretty disparate mix of city-states, tribes and petty kingdoms using different languages and venerating different idols into following the will of a singular ruler, using Quechua as a linga franca, and starting to actually worship the same god. That they did so without writing, the wheel and iron tools, in one of the most hardy environment for empire building, and with examples of attempt at expanding this methodology of rulership, unlike the Mesoamericans and the Cahokians, in contrast, beyond their native mountains of the Andes and into the Patagonian pampas is just head and shoulder above the city-states of Mexico and Honduras.
That and the fact that despite Plagues scathing their population left and right and being embroiled in a civil war, they still attempted to resist the Spaniards and made it damn hard on them. It's commendable, if anything
As a comparable, it would be akin to the Raetians somehow unifying under a divinely-ordained monarchy, conquering all of the Alps, including the Lepontic, Vindelicii, Norii, and Helvetii tribes living there, integrating them, and then beginning forays into Cisalpine Gaul, in the span of less than a century. It's precedented, but still pretty damn impressive.
>london was hanging people for bringing leeks into town, not much better
Punishing criminals, detering criminals for the sake of preserving order and civility.
Versus
>sacrificing people by thousands at a time literally, so that you'd have rain and goodluck
you're moronic, arent you?
But the only time in Mesoamerican history that human sacrifice may have reached the scale of "thousands at a time", it was the result of a military promotion system, and the victims were all just enemy soldiers who in normal circumstances would have just bled out on the battlefield instead
Would they become on par with the Romans or the Chinese if they weren't conquered by the Spanish after only 100 years?
That is irrelevant because they were many centuries behind the europeans so it was a matter of time them being conquered.
So was Japan, tbh
Neo-incan rebels often used guns and cannons stolen from the Spanish dead, UNLIKE the Aztecs
Japan also got conquered by the USA because of that same reason, the difference in technology.
The incas stole some guns and cannons.
So what? did they now how to make powder for example? Or could they produce more guns or cannons? Also think that the conquistadors were little groups of mercenaries not an army. Imagine the incas defeat many of those groups of conquistadors, eventually the europeans will settle in another place of america and sent a big army of tens of thousands of soldiers and hundresds of cannons etc. and would have defeatead the incas anyway. Also the plague was going to frick them up anyway too. The difference in technology was too big for them to win.
Now hypothetically had they lingered on for longer time it is possible that they could have found support from some other European nations.
Europeans have a habit of working against each other and there were several nations more than happy to undermine Spanish Empire.
What happened to the tribes in north america that got guns from europeans to fight against other europens? Once they were used as pawns they were also submitted by their supposed allies.
Japan is still a good example against you; they had >90% technological parity with the allies, and there is strong evidence they'd have even successfully developed the atom bomb first were their resources not divided between two competing, politicized programs (army command vs naval command).
I'm talking about when the USA showed up in their coast with a modern army and they still had mostly a medieval army and the japanese had to surrender due to the difference in technology. If Japan wouldn't have isolated so much and trade with other nations maybe they would have developed their armed forces and made them be at the same level of the USA or the euroepan countries. I think that it's pretty easy to understand, if you isolate yourself and don't learn from the advances in technology that are happening around the world you become weaker.
That wasn't a conquest, sailing in and scaring a nation into submission, and actually invading, occupying and subjugating a nation are two very different things.
The result was almost the same. The USA imposed some trade rules to Japan and they had to accept. You don't need to occupy all the country to make a country submit to you. It happened to Japan in 1945 again.
You can't compare it at all in this scenario, there's zero guarantee that USA could've annexed Japan into an overseas American empire like the Spanish did Peru.
What is your point because I'm lost now. You don't need to occupy a country to control it. Look at China when it was controlled by the europeans just controlling it's ports as another example.
I think it's very very basic the idea that if you isolate yourself and you are not in contact with technological advances then you become weaker. Imagine that the romans could have sailed to America and contact the incas bringing them all the new technologies. The incas could have become a vassal kingdom of the romans for a while and then get independent and be too powerful for the spanish to submit them.
Tell me how you think it was at all possible for the Spaniards to control the Incas without conquering them then? I really don't see how it was possible, the important cities were all high in the Andes and Spain nearly lost after having already kidnapped the god emperor by some divine fluke and using it as a free pass into Cusco.
How did the europeans controlled China wihtout having to occupy all it's territory? Japan too.
I start building forts along your coast and from time to time I go and frick you up your citites so you stay weak. Eventually I buy your king and I control you like that.
>How did the europeans controlled China wihtout having to occupy all it's territory? Japan too.
they didn't. china was never controlled by europeans. you are equivocating in order to simulate having some sort of point in favor of 'antiimperialism'.
How far were they from becoming like the Romans? Their infrastructure and clothing look like early Latin/Roman level already. How long until they reached Roman Republic level?
God what I would give to witness how Amerindian societies would've progessed without eurocucks...
biggest issue was not their lower technology but that their population crashed and they get ravaged by diseases just before their contact with pizarro
it was also main reason why they were in the middle of succession crisis
Look whatever it's so simple to understand that the difference in technology between the inca and the europeans were so big that they didn't had a chance.
demography was more important
some local tribes resisted Spaniards longs after Incas fallen and if they still have demography then it would eventually turned the way of India or other Asian countries go
it doesn't matter if you have a lot of people throwing me arrows when I have cannons, guns and many more much advanced weapons
eventually they were going to lose
early technological advantage wasn't that great, sure later when you had spear chukkers vs machine guns then yes but before that?
if instead of diseases and Pizarro(who was fricking AMD gambler) they got Jesuits and some traders they would survive probably long enough to face machine guns and modern artillery
Comanches resisted Spanish approach well enough(until another wave of diseases fricked them up)
you are just delusional, all of America was conquered by europeans, tell me why then
to be fair wasnt it diseases that killed like 80-90% of them across north and south america. that surely had to help
the all powerful comanche empire!
where is it now?
also the spaniards would have done like with the aztecs and pay other little kings to fight against the inca emperor and divide and conquer, and then kill the pawns, look what they did with the aztecs with a little group of mercenaries
the tribes were moronic, imagine thinking that you can trust a people that is much more powerful than you to when the common enemy is defeated that they are not going to kill you next xd
the locals used the foreigners to fight oppressive hegemony, they fought Cortez before and were sure that they can handle him one way or another
what happen after conquest was another matter
demography mostly, diseases that crashed local population and social order and local power structures, technological advantage wasn't that great, although horses were really important
their population crashed and they never recovered
ok so basically it was pure luck and it was the diseases that won, same old story
bad luck the incas were in their way to become ROME in the fricking 1500s xd
they didn't even have writing or the wheel xd
it wasn't pure luck, lack of immunity of indios population would fricked them sooner or later
their empires would get ravaged by diseases, depopulated and conquered by some adventurers sooner or later
IF they had immunity the situation would be different
also at that time Europe was producing really high amount of surplus population which was expandable and could afford expansion, colonization and conquest
are you aware that Europe also suffered the black death in the 1300s where like almost 50% of the population died?
>bad luck the incas were in their way to become ROME in the fricking 1500s xd
That doesn't make sense, their timelines don't cross at all and aren't analogous because they were completely isolated from each other. Like layman normies use "Stone Age", "Bronze Age" "Iron Age" as some kind of metric for a societies overall advancement but thats a chronological diagnostic for Eurasia and maybe Africa, it's not a term to denote a civilizations overall advancement.
>they didn't even have writing or the wheel xd
Again, the implication here being that technological development is linear, when it isn't
>ok so basically it was pure luck and it was the diseases that won
If you actually gave a frick about researching a historical topic before discussing it then this sentiment wouldn't sound so ridiculous to you.
They were going to get conquered sooner or later. If not by Spain in the 1500s it would have been France, the UK or other european country later on.
It was Spain leading by example and striking a shit load of gold that even made other Europeans interested in the new world, if Cortes fails (like he nearly did several times and like multiple would be conquistadores did before him) then Spain wouldn't bother trying again, hell Cortes' expedition was illegal and he only got away with it cos he won and made Spain rich. If all he failed then all he would've done was make more Mesoamerican states hostile against Spain (and better adapted to dealing with European weaponry and tactics). And you're insane if you think Spain wasn't going to start trading weapons for Aztec gold (and missionary access) after they had a couple expeditions all go disastrously wrong.
Start selling them weapons would be a very moronic thing. You are making them stronger when you could just take the land. And who is going to protect the missionaries there?, do you think that the aztecs with how much fanatics they were with their religion and how old it was that they were going to accept missionaries spreading another religion in their empire?
anon
you ever heard about slave trade in africa or fur trade in NA?
guess what was traded for slaves and furs?
>22 million in mexico alone
Lol. Lmao even. Low iq individuals such as yourself have no right to an opinion. God has not blessed your kind with the gift of logic and reason. This probably played a part in why your ancestors killed newborn babies and ate their flesh in the hopes it would rain.
>t. illiterate moron high on his own farts
both primary sources and research prove high numbers
you shut your trap and don't speak about logic you full of shit midwit
>stone age mexico had a population 50% greater than renaissance france because...uhhh...it just did ok!!?!
you can quote more garbage estimates shilled by decrepit academics, youre only further proving me right in my initial statement
im sorry to have to break this to you, but since clearly no one else has up to this point; you are low iq and should stick to manual tasks or sports-related hobbies. this is just pitiful to read. like watching a child jump off the roof believing he can fly like superman because the funny colours box in his living room said so.
yes, your "talents" are better suited to spongebob, or children's cartoons in general.
>an entire thriving, highly urbanized, agricultural 3000 year old civilization couldn't possibly have had a larger population than a single cold feudal kingdom in Europe because...they used le normal rocks instead of le shiny rocks!
The absolute state of metal brains
To be fair they weren't "Stone Age" by any metric in terms of urbanism/development but also by that standard they still weren't because they did have metallurgy, mainly copper/bronze and obviously gold/silver. See
low iq + romanticised identitarian delusions are an explosive combination.
the mexica tribes did not use bronze. there are a handful of artifacts found that date to not more than a century before the arrival of the spanish. they had gold, silver and copper, which are the type of metals you would expect to work with if you had stone-age-level technology. granted they might have been past the stone age in the waste management department. but overall they clearly were not on the level of the bronze age egyptians, to give just one example.
>shut the frick up dumb beanerjak party subhumanoid monstrosity
wew lad, i can nearly smell this post. i hate beans.
yeah yeah, now can you kindly frick off back? Illiterate pop his moron?
Nah they could/did work bronze. They've found artifacts of bronze tools in Aztec sites like Yautepec, although it was all imported from West Mexico which in turn is believed to have come from South America, and that goes back to about 600 AD they believe. And eventually the Mexica/Aztecs did adopt bronze working although of course they did use stone tools more overall like most of Mesoamerica
>Postclassic Mesoamerica was heavily economically interconnected; West Mexico produced and exported bronze to the Aztecs and as far as Yucatan,(3) where wealthy and commoner alike could access it in highly integrated markets.(4)(5) And while many important mines were in the west, other regions had deposits of copper, tin, etc. that allowed for local production. Even the Maya had bronzeworking loci.
I've got some sources on this if you wanna learn more
>I've got some sources on this if you wanna learn more
>implying
great joke anon but the likes of him are to narrow minded to learn anything other than they already believe
>mexica tribes
you clearly don't have a clue about what you're talking about
shut the frick up dumb beanerjak party subhumanoid monstrosity you were blown the frick out
other way around, though
they have really good agriculture
European population exploded after introducing Amerindian plants, same for china
Europe was at brink of constant starvation before that, potato and maize(corn) introduction to Europe was one of the reasons why industrial revolution started
>They concluded that their research documented a demographic catastrophe, "one of the worst in the history of humanity." Their point estimates show the native population imploding from 25.2 million in 1519 to 6.3 million by 1545, 2.5 in 1570, and bottoming out at 1.2 million in 1620. Their reconstruction is widely accepted, indeed, it has become a paradigm to describe the devastation of European conquests elsewhere in the Americas and Oceania.
https://users.pop.umn.edu/~rmccaa/mxpoprev/cambridg3.htm#:~:text=They%20concluded%20that%20their%20research,at%201.2%20million%20in%201620.
The Inca empire was like a trillion times more centralised than the Aztecs, and the Spaniards didn't even win over Aztec vassals at first, they allied with a statealready at war with the Aztecs and the vassals only switched to Spain's side last minute after Cortez had already practically won.
THE INCANS WERE WHITE?!
WHY DIDN'T IQfy TELL ME THIS??
This is a recent sculpture of Mummy Juanita (also known as the Lady of Ampato or the Ice Maiden), the frozen body of a girl victim of an Inca sacrifice or capaccocha (royal sin). It isn't a mummy in the traditional sense, but due to the conditions it's extremely well-preserved, unlike the typical Andean mummy.
The body was discovered in a landslide triggered by the melting of a glacier atop the Ampato stratovolcano in Arequipa, Peru. Additionally, there is an even more exceptionally preserved frozen body, The Maiden, found undisturbed near the summit of Llullaillaco stratovolcano in Salta, Argentina.
Regarding the clothing of the bust, it features a ñañaca to cover the head, typical of women's attire. But I don't recall a prior reconstruction of Juanita wearing one (pic related), she was found adorned with a rare feathered headgear.
And this ñañaca kind of seems inspired by the ones women use today in the Inti Raymi and the like. Adrian Ilave, expert on Inca clothing, says that the traditional Inca ñañaca, in contrast to modern versions, was not as stiff and draped down the sides
And underneath the lliclla shawl, she wore an acso (the main women's cloth), not displayed on the bust. In some regions, the acso was a long tunic, but in Cusco (and elsewhere), it was a large, rectangular mantle wrapped around the body and fastened at the shoulders with pins, the style found with Juanita.
Btw the Incas maintained a monopoly on horizontal bands in clothing, commoners were mandated to use vertical bands instead.
Similarly, the nobility supposedly claimed exclusive rights to certain colors, like shades of red. Moreover, only nobility was allowed to wear clothing made from vicuña (wild camelid) wool, some of the finest in the world. The use of tocapu motifs was regulated as well. People were mandated to wear their ethnic attire, and impersonating the dress style of the Incas was punishable by death. Thinking back, many aspects of daily life were state-controlled (through a system of spies and state officials), and noncompliance was severely punished.
But returning to Inca clothing, textiles were categorized into:
Awaska, used for household purposes, had an approximate thread count of about 120 threads per inch and was typically made from llama wool.
And qunpi, the fine cloth, typically made from alpaca and vicuña wool (often mistaken/referred to as "silk" in early accounts). Qunpi was divided into two classes: One woven by male qunpikamayuq-kuna (keepers of fine cloth) and another woven by aclla-kuna ("chosen girls"). Imperial qunpi textiles boast thread counts of 600 or more per inch, a standard unmatched globally until the Industrial Revolution in the 19th century.
Reportedly, Atahualpa wore a new outfit each day, storing the used garments in boxes. At the end of each year, these clothes were collectively burned to prevent any possibility of bewitchment, or so he said.
Pic related, a couple of unku (male tunic), on the left an unku offering found among the grave goods of mummy Juanita. The cloth to the right is an unku used by commoners (see the vertical bands)
dayum. thats fascinating
>vicuña wool (often mistaken/referred to as "silk" in early accounts)
And it continues to be very expensive
Cool. Tell me more
>Thinking back, many aspects of daily life were state-controlled (through a system of spies and state officials), and noncompliance was severely punished.
I still think the Incas were cool, but this is pretty dystopian. Quite the opposite of what OP was thinking of.
The Sapa Inca often had red hair. There’s also lots of ginger mummies from the pre-Incan cultures of the region like the Chinchorro, Paracas, and Nazca. Thor Heyerdahl wrote a book on the the subject.
How did they build such an impressive civilization without books or a written language. The Mayans and even the Aztecs had tons of books.
If you were the Emperor of the Incas. Let's say you were their Justinian. What would you have done? Introduce a writing system? Make use of wheels? Reformed the Inti religion?
>Let's say you were their Justinian. What would you have done?
Not betray my best general and not letting my thot wife cuck me. Also not persecuting the philosophers of my empire.
>get pizaro outa the way
>establish a more stable succession system
>liquify the property rights of the dead (establish an elaborate system to bypass their land accumulation if i have to)
>introduce markets along the major highways
>establish an imperial currency based on gold
>obtain euro techs like paper and guns via trade. the euros will eat up our gold like no tomorrow
>hold things together as the diseases pass. maybe we could blame the ghostly white man for sending his curses and hexes upon us?
>try to play euro powers off of eachother to get stable trade, although thats way off and i probably wont live to see that considering how buddy buddy portugal and spain are)
There we go now 500 smelly corpse looking motherfrickers wont be taking over the four corners. I would also introduce modern medicine and science and shiet but lets not get ahead of ourselves with anachronisms.
Pretty good (compared to the standard, usually bad) but they fricked up with the necklace and mirror, plus other minor things
Obviously not a Utopia, that's just a fantasy. But they were pretty impressive. They had probably one of the most successful centralized economies, resisted the Spanish for decades, had kino architecture that baffles balding white boomers from the USA who insist Sacsayhuaman or Machu Picchu were built by aryans or aliens (i had a manager IRL who said such things) and like most Amerindian civilizations they were just really alien and unique. I mean they recorded data with knotted strings instead of using a writing script
Imagine the coca.
They would have defeated the Spanish had it not been for smallpox wiping out everyone in the empire.
They were prepared to hand over the keys to the kingdom to the people who they remembered as the founders of their entire culture. The Spanish did not know how to act the part because they themselves did not comprehend themselves as the children of God in the past age who were responsible for so much more than they knew.
>Inca thread
>posts conquistadores in Tenochtitlan
That sun does not look amused...
>You don't say!
That picture doesn't really look anything like Tenochtitlan either.
Then complain to the artist who made it.
>reconstruction minus people and beheaded victims.png
you can see people, they're just really frickin small because the place is so big
Anon the skull rack is right there, in front of the Great Temple with the ballcourt behind it
>lightest skinned natives in the American continent
>had the most successful empire
interesting...
all Amerindians have pretty much the same skin tone, but if anything the more Caucasian looking indians were the least advanced
skinned natives in the American continent
Have you ever actually seen an Andean before, anon?
skinned natives in the American continent
huh? i havent heard this
>utopia
Hardly. It was a rudimentary palace/temple economy with a strictly enforced caste system. If you were a commoner, your sons could be taken by the state for several years of military service, while your daughters could be taken by the state to be distributed as wives or concubines for members of the higher castes (noblemen, soldiers or priests), or as human sacrifices. Like the other great historical palace/temple economy, ancient Egypt, the average person lived a noticeably shorter life than elsewhere in the world and suffered from stunted growth and physical debilitation due to forced labor and a low-protein, one-sided agricultural diet.
>what is an artist rendition
>Tell me about the Inca civilization
I don't think its any of your business
>Was the Inca Empire a utopia?
it was an aspiring totalitarian shithole akin to eastern european commie states, limited in its ambitions by logistics and lack of adequate technology.
>eh tbf they had pretty good logistics despite their limitations, at least by new world standards
so if the incas were in their way to become the Rome of the americas in the 1500s... when Europe was in the industrial revolution in the 1700s the incas would be at medieval europe level?? How does that work?
diseases helped a lot yes but they were going to get conquered sooner or later
all the fucing world, diseases or not, was conquered by europeans because they had better technology, maybe only china wasn't conquered fully
that is so easy to understand that is shocking that you don't get it
IF they demographic it would be like in case of India, China, Japan, maybe Persia or other Asiatic country
they would be colonized or reformed but even then in case of colonization they would kept their core population
but its only IF they had immunity that they didn't had
not to that extent, it go away eventually and their neighbors(Muslims and steppe nomads) also get ravaged by it(it really crushed steppe nomads which allowed Moscow to out mongols mongol remnants)
Europe demographic go on rapid growth after it
bro the indios kept their population, look at peru or bolivia what are you talking about? they were conquered and converted to christianity, end of story
>By 1620, the Andean Native population had declined by approximately 90 percent due to epidemics, war, and colonial exploitation
also this
for mexico
there was reason why everyone was importing Black folks - simply locals were dying in mass
And Europe had the black death in the 1300s where 50% of their population died too. And many wars and invasions of the mongols and arabs and many others.
yeah but it recovered quite fast and both mongols and arabs get fricked by it too
also 90+%>50%
indios never recovered and their population was ravaged by disease till xix century
compare this pic with
Maybe europeans recovered fast because they had better societies.
I suggest reading
>Gunnar Heinsohn SECURITY IMPLICATIONS OF CHANGING DEMOGRAPHIC TRENDS
They recovered fast because black plague gone away eventually and because mass breeding
Imagine(if you can that you get black plague event every 10-20 years)
So imagine the incas didn't have the problem with smallpox. They defeat the first little groups of spaniards that arrive in the 1500s.
What happens next? Spain or other european country keeps sending armies from other parts of the continent where they are already settled.
>Spain or other european country keeps sending armies
maybe, maybe not also Incas actually had both population and don't have succession crisis, also they have plenty of silver that they can exchange for goods - both weapons and technology
It could go way of Japan when they simply close border and throw out foreigners(which would work until modern arms appear unless bongs start smuggling drugs to them)
ok, but do try to use correct verb tenses, because this way you sound like a caricature of an aboriginal from any number of XIXth century adventure books.
And it wasn't only diseases, It was moronation from them too for believing that they could trust a much more powerful people.
>communism doesn't wor-
Incans had no currency. They produced goods, which was collected in government warehouses which was then redistributed to the populous. The government did not tax its citizens with goods or currency, but rather with labor. This allowed impressive infrastructural projects to be completed wherever or whenever needed throughout the empire. If the Inca Empire lasted as long as the Romans, they would have outdid them.
>corvee labor is actually communism
so are communists now just admitting that they believe in the enslavement of the entire populace
>Was the Inca Empire a utopia
Gomez Suarez de Figueroa's book tacitly says it was, but Garcilazo only spent his childhood in Cusco and most of his life in Spain, he wrote several inaccuracies and he took a similar position to that of Blas Valera because he read Blas's account (now lost, for the most part) that he partially copied (plagiarized).
In his youth, he was quite influenced by his friend's father, Mansio Serra Leguizamon, nicknamed "the last Conquistador", who a very apologetic guy, this is what Serra's tomb says:
>I wish Your Majesty to understand the motive that moves me to make this statement is the peace of my conscience and because of the guilt I share. For we have destroyed by our evil behaviour such a government as was enjoyed by these natives... beg God to pardon me, for I am moved to say this, seeing that I am the last to die of the Conquistadors.
Wtf is with American Mexicano in the farthest northern parts of the US having a strange fascination with and yearning for the pre-spanish Aztec religion to come back? They're parents aren't like this at all.
where are these people? show them to me. I too think religion is cool and would like to endorse them.
>We are all floatining on cocaine here, anon.
It was an authoritarian autocratic basically slave state.
>It was an authoritarian autocratic basically slave state.
Even slave societies can be progressive when compared to earlier societies.
RE: OP
IRL The stairs prevent people from having the time and energy to move up or down from their station unless they have a specific reason or it's their job. It's not clear in this picture either, that the steps are MUCH larger, and considering the height of the locals, you can tell it was created this way specifically to gate keep the hierarchy.
The people at the top can literally look down on everyone. So it's like, being a god really. Managing the lower levels would be easier than other cities around the same time period. So it's no surprise some other groups would want to destroy it, and they won. So... it probably sucked living there for most people.
Other places in Peru are more livable, and less hierarchical physically, and they're still inhabited and modernized.
Sadly the original illustrations of Guaman Poma's letter are colorless.
But before writing his account, Poma was one of the indian artists who worked on Martin de Murua's book (Poma later denounced Murua in his writings).
Pic related, it is worth noting that the warrior in fig. 8a-b isn't the Inca king Pachacuti, often just referred to as Inca Yupanqui in several colonial accounts (like his son, causing confusion). Guaman Poma has a separate chapter of Inca kings, plus Guaman Poma says this warrior was "the first captain" who supposedly served as an army leader under the reign of Manco Capac, the first Inca king.
But in Murua's book, Guaman Poma drew him most certainly fighting a Chanca warrior, something the Inca Emperor Pachacuti was known for.
>Guaman Poma says this warrior was "the first captain"
Even though Poma gave him that title, Poma said that there were many others before him, but among the first ones, he was the one that stood out the most and for the sake of brevity, Poma only talked about him.
>most certainly fighting a Chanca warrior
The Chanca were known for their llautos (head cords) and the bird man is often seen in Inca-Chanca confrontations, the Chanca identified themselves with birds of prey, their most revered huacas (sacred whatever, usually stones for the case of the Incas) were connected to birds, the Hanan (upper) Chancas went to war carrying the mallqui (mummified ancestor) of Uscovilca (sacred buzzard), while the Hurin (lower) Chancas did the same with Ancovilca or sacred "eagle" (not true eagles around, actually a large hawk with an eagle-like appearance)
Pic related, Chanan Cori Coca, who used to be a famous warrior woman in Inca legends. She's depicted on the right side of the first 2 images, Chanan fought the Chancas during the reign of Pachacuti. Sometimes she is mistaken for the first Inca woman, Mama Ocllo/Mama Huaco, sometimes they are two separated women, sometimes one and the same, Mama Ocllo Huaco, Ocllo oftentimes has traditional womanly roles, while Huaco is a cunning military leader.
>State provided girlfriends
RETVRN
interesting thread
Latinx civilizations are overrated. All of these paintings are just cope. The natives were hardly better than barbarians. Hell the ones in Asia and Europe at least had metallurgy.