"yeah-sure-whatever, Octavius,
Illiad is popular and well-known, I'm going to take one character who is mentioned briefly and who has very little backstory,
and I'm going to craft a piece of literature that will blow your fricking mind,"
Pub. Vergilius Maro
His Divine Thought at the precise moment of the the birth of Modern Literature
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The Boba Fett of the Classical World
The Deep Space Nine of the Classical World
better by degrees of nine
you gets thas idea
Aeneas was a major hero to the Etruscans and Romans already. Homer is used as an outline for form but the poem is about Roman rather than mythology and is chalked full of allusions to Roman battles and history
Roman rather than *Greek mythology
>Aeneas was a major hero to the Etruscans and Romans already.
He was?
I've never come across a single primary source that indicates that Aeneas or Troy existed in the Romano-Etruscan consciousness prior to Vergil, what with 99% of Roman mythology already existing for 3,500 yrs amongst the Etruscans and not requiring it be imported from elsewhere.
He's mentioned in the earliest Roman histories.
And my handsome husband who loves me is mentioned in all my slashfic.
>mentioned in the earliest Roman histories.
Which is where..? Written by who? When?
I'm genuinely curious. I've studied every facet of the Roman culture and the Etruscans, Lugirians, etc. and never come across a mention of any Aeneas or any Aeneas as he's portrayed as his character in the the fictional story called the Iliad. Which is not a mythology.
>the earliest histories
????
err anyway
I think people have totally missed the point of this thread.
Erm sweaty erm he is an important character in the Annales of Ennius which is an epic about the history of Rome and begins with the Trojan War. According to Mommsen’s “The History of Rome”, he is found in Etruscan art. Livy in speaking of the role of Aeneas claims to be following earlier historians. Erm
see, I knew there was a reason I'd discarded this the first time I read Ennius and just forgot about it, see:
Ennius is writing under the influence of Homer, it's not a tradition he's relaying,
observe,
>Some lines of the Annales, as well as ancient testimonies, for example, suggest that Ennius opened his epic with a recollection of a dream in which the ancient epic-writer Homer informed him that his spirit had been reborn into Ennius.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ennius
He also is fricking ugly and looks about 4 feet tall.
> According to Mommsen’s “The History of Rome”, he is found in Etruscan art.
Not that I've ever seen. I would have remembered.
>Livius
not a primary source, he's writing post-Aeneid, as Ennius is writing post-Illiad.
You goofy guy, ALL Roman literature is post Homer. The question is about he idea of Aeneas coming to Italy and fathering the Roman people being something Virgil invented when it is in Ennius
Ennius to Latin as Dante is to Italian as in his literature establish that became canonical and standardized throughout the language. Being ugly is irrelevant
Livy is writing post Aeneid but doesn’t use it as a source which you would know if you ever read Livy or any secondary source on Livy
>Ennius to Latin as Dante is to Italian
A pedophile trying to b***h slap people he disagreed with? The more you know.
Dante was the same age as Beatrice, moron
What is this supposed to mean lol
oh, i missed this - i was fricking angy
>Ennius to Latin as Dante is to Italian as in his literature establish that became canonical and standardized
WHAT.
You know Cato this that honor, Zoilus. Are you robing a grave in the presence of a Knight? Are you aware I have this tree in my garden where thieves are sodomized?
>(muh fricking continuity)
>ALL Roman literature is post Homer.
No. There's 3,500 yrs of the actual "Roman Culture" coming from the Etruscans and this was obviously not post-Homer. I'd be more convinced of this being true to have found this among the early Etruscans, when like with the Gauls when we find mentions of Gallic Hercules (with Gallic names) we can know for sure that that's an organic thing and not just copied from elsewhere. i.e. an actual tradition
> The question is about he idea of Aeneas coming to Italy and fathering the Roman people being something Virgil invented when it is in Ennius
That's... actually a good point. Fricking Vergil is a copycat.
> if you ever read Livy or any secondary source on Livy
I know his friends Martial and Quintilian, I am sure I know him better than you, Zoilus.
There is no Roman LITERATURE coming from the Etruscans, moron
Literature, literature - you're coming very close to actually saying something that's actually on-topic for this thread.
The claim that Romans all believed themselves to hail from Aeneas a character in a Greekish work of fiction requires some fricking proof. If this proof existed it would be found, in the manner as imagery of Hercules and Caecus and Larans, etc., being evidenced to exist prior to some honk-nose writing a poem about it, centuries later, giving his mere opinion on it.
Yeah Virgil didn't take it out of his ass. There was already tradition that considerred him an ancestor of the romans. In fact, the reason why Caesar claimed ancestry from Venus is that he considered Aeneas an ancestor of his, and he was the son of Venus.
I mean, bearing in mind, as said, the Iliad is not a mythology but a work of fiction ... it's possible that some Romans liked the character and considered themselves as pioneering immigrants against the long-hated Greeks, or something.
But the Roman Religion; mos maiorum, is entirely indigenous (i.e. Etruscan) and was entirely accepted as being as such, demonstrated by the head priests and the priestly language being Etruscan.
>the point of this thread.
was that the literature devise of the spin-off sequel and the notion of the identification with the protagonist (vs. stock characters in theatre) in pure fiction seems to begin here. Though there are probably other examples from older civilization in the world.
>chalked full of allusions
Chock full. moron.
wiener full of retort, kentucky frogged rice. nice.
"Come, my father, we must go,
out though the city in the beautiful snow,"
"That's not snow that's flaming corpses,"
"SERVANT. BRING. FRESH. HORSES."
"Aeneas, my son,
my time is done,
my old way of life....
FETCH ME A KNIFE
I MUST END MY LIFE
I DON'T HAVE THE STRENGTH TO GO ON...
LIKE I DID *sob* when I was young...."
*lightning bolt*
AENEAS GRIM EXPRESSION
"These fricking oily Greek they come to my city
which only yesterday was o' so pretty,
they come to my planet with chaos and strife**
as Mars is my witness I will SEND. THEM. TO. THE. AFTER. LIFE.
come fetch my wine, my amiable Wife,
there's work to be done and many a life
TO SEND ......... DOWN TO HAIDES
WITH BLOOD AND GUTS FOR GRAVY
HARK CAN YOU HEAR THE SLAVERING SOUND
OF THE LOLLING TONGUES OF CERBERUS ROLLING AROUND
THEY'RE EAGER FOR THE DISH
I'M EAGER TO SERVE,"
AENEAS KICKS OPEN HIS FRONT DOOR TO FACE THE BURNING STREETS
"DO YOU HEAR ME, GREEKS, DO YOU HEAR MY WORDS?"
END ACT 3