Yeah "Operaist" He was best at bringing it all together but he was not the best any individual category. He wasn't the best composer and wasn't the best writer
So he was the greatest at doing the exact proffession he was doing and not other ones? Fricking moron. This is like complaining Shakespeare wasnt the greatest novelist because he still used words for his plays.
That's an absurd criticism. Wagner is one of the greatest composers to ever live, saying he's not as good as Mozart is like downplaying Goethe because he's not as good as Shakespeare. They're both authors at the top of the game and equally worth reading, that Shakespeare may in the end be greater doesn't change anything.
And then, as the other anon says, we're talking about opera here, not music on its own. Comparing traditional opera with Wagner is like comparing the child to the man; none of them, even with the music of Mozart, can claim to be serious drama a la Greek tragedy.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Comparing traditional opera with Wagner is like comparing the child to the man;
This is the wrong way around surely? Wagner never quite surpassed the level of Marriage of Figaro or Magic Flute. Both of which can hold their own very happily with anything the Greeks produced - not sure what your point is there.
Wagner was a fine opera composer like Verdi or Rossini - why this need to place him on a pedestal?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Sorry anon, but you're just not educated enough to understand. If you don't know why Wagner is a great composer then you're not familiar with music theory; if you don't know that Wagner has always been considered far superior to Italian opera then you're not familiar with the culture of 19th century music; if you don't understand the distinction between general artistic value and dramatic value then you're not familiar with aesthetics.
It's true, Mozart's operas have more dramatic value than most operas, but his music could only convey so much within the traditional operatic form, because it is still only his melodies imbuing the libretto with an unexpected life, and as a result it still pales before Aeschylus and Wagner as drama. And in Verdi and Rossini the orchestra might as well only exist to accompany the singers, since it's Italian opera, the concerns are only the singers, pretty vocal melodies for superficial entertainment. It is utterly superficial.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>It is utterly superficial.
Wagner isn't that deep. It's the best in an art form that is more about the music. That doesn't amount to much. Wagner's philosophy was superficial
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
You don't know the first thing about music. You think, like every pleb, that enjoyment or lack of enjoyment is all the criteria you need for judging a work of art. Wagner is expanding on late Beethoven in a free form, a nice singable opera melody isn't even on the same planet in terms of complexity and depth.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>expanding on late Beethoven in a free form, a nice singable opera melody isn't even on the same planet in terms of complexity and depth.
None of that matters when it comes to artistic worth.
You are like some metalhead insisting Tool or SOAD must be better than Taylor Swift because they sometimes use tricky time signatures
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
The drummer from tool looks like a toddler trying to play the drums sometimes because of weird time signatures during breakdowns and it cracks me up every time I see him do it. I love it by the way. No matter what you say tool is the peak of something maybe not all rock music for all time but they do reach the pinnacle of something.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
What matters more than how beautiful the music sounds?
The enormous complexity and innovation of Beethoven and Wagner are praised BECAUSE they allow for the sublime worth of their art. Capeshit is more beautiful than Shakespeare to plebs, is that an objective judgement?
It's like I'm talking to babies. Are you unfamiliar with the nature of genius? Have you never heard of Raphael's influence, do you not know that the genius subsumes both technical mastery and artistic worth? In the realm of genius, pop music similes are no longer possible. You are such incorrigible fools. Why are you giving your opinions when you know full well that you have no right an opinion with your level of knowledge? You need to be spoonfed the basics, go away and get that from somewhere before you give your opinions. When you are this unfamiliar with a topic, you should look to the artistic tradition's estimation of its own artists and hold that as your estimation too, because you cannot judge for yourself as of yet. It is pure arrogance to do otherwise.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Wagner was a big influence on the israeli postmodern movement in music. I'm sure you're a big fan of that but this is why I don't value things like "complexity" and "genius". Beauty is the only thing that should be measured or you end up with Morton Feldman and Boulez
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Wagner was a big influence on EVERYONE. So was Beethoven, so was Mozart. There are abstract painters inspired by Tintoretto. The fact that geniuses have inspired some people negatively doesn't mean anything. You're just a dolt with stupid taste and you should be fine with that taste without having to depreciate genius. What you don't realise is that all those composers which you, entirely subjectively and superficially, find 'beautiful', have themselves valued genius, because they were real composers who studied and understood music.
>Towards the end of his long and successful life, Verdi could afford to admit to Felix Philippi: ‘The work which always arouses my greatest admiration is Tristan. This gigantic structure fills me time and time again with astonishment and awe, and I still cannot quite comprehend that it was conceived and written by a human being. I consider the second act, in its wealth of musical invention, its tenderness and sensuality of musical expression and inspired orchestration, to be one of the finest creations that has ever issued from a human mind.’
>During Puccini's work on Turandot he glanced again at the score of Tristan, only to put it down again with the words: 'Enough of this music! We're mandolinists, amateurs: woe to him who gets caught by it! This tremendous music destroys one and renders one incapable of composing any more!'
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
It's consensus that Wagner was the precursor of modernism. Have you actually listened to Wagner? Do you know music theory? It's closer to postmodernism than it is to Mozart. I don't really have a problem with Wagner I have a problem with saying beauty is not important. It's the only important thing. Wagner has parts that are beautiful and that is why he is great. Not because he was "different" because you can't be more different than Boulez.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
No one said beauty is not important. It's your stupid assumption that only the beauty that you individually can see or appreciate is real beauty, when you're only binding yourself to your plebeian taste. Once again, when a capeshitter thinks Avengers Endgame is more beautiful than Shakespeare, and justifies this by saying that Shakespeare's only more complex but not artistically more valuable, how do you counter this? Because you have no respect for the tradition's own values of beauty, the personally judged beauty is all important for you.. what's this? It seems you're the one who's closer to avant garde shit, with your own tearing down of artistic culture!
Mozart leads to Beethoven, Beethoven leads to Wagner. There's a consistent progress throughout musical history, especially in the Germanic tradition. And no, Wagner is not closer to postmodernism than he is to Mozart. Wagner is firmly within the common practice period, postmodernists are far past it. Mozart wrote daring dissonances, that certainly wouldn't be considered beautiful by you:
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
You're talking about popularity. No one said anything about being popular. I'm asking what is more important than what is beautiful? What is placed higher than that?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Mind explaining how, and where, I'm talking about 'popularity'? And would you actually answer the questions in the post?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
By bringing up Avengers I thought you were referring to popularity but I now I see you are just doing the postmodern everything is subjective argument. Are you sure you aren't israeli? Do you think you can't say Avengers Endgame is not beautiful or are only the people in the superhero world allowed to make claims like that?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>you are just doing the postmodern everything is subjective argument.
No, I'm not. That's what you're doing, I'm demonstrating your own argument, and you can now see how shallow it is. You're so slow, YOU MUST HAVE AN IQ OF 90. You're saying the entire musical tradition was wrong to find the music of genius the most beautiful, and for that tradition to believe that there was an objective basis for the greater beauty in the music of genius.
I am saying that there is far greater, infinitely greater, beauty than what you believe is the apex of beauty. Who is right, you, or the artistic tradition?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Who is right, you, or the artistic tradition?
Which tradition? When does the tradition stop?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Which tradition? >When does the tradition stop?
Again, it sounds like you're the subjectivist anon. Were you hoping nullify any hard definitions of this tradition and thereby deny its existence as a determiner of artistic value? You have the most blatant evidence from almost everyone in that tradition, even from composers like Verdi that you apparently consider at the top, that Beethoven, Wagner, etc., stand above everyone else in their beauty, which in matters of genius also means technical mastery. Since, once again you must be spoonfed, this higher beauty is only possible through the elevated art at use.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I'm saying tradition is irrelevant what matters is the objective criteria that you set for any piece of art. You can't nail down a tradition because bad art will always make it into a tradition. And there were great artists and great art where the consensus of the tradition was that it was bad. If the tradition said Wagner was worthless hack you would agree with them?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
The tradition includes and is the objective criteria. A tradition is not, as you seem to think, a list of names. It is a living thing. Wagner and Beethoven, for every possible reason, justified with every possible demonstration, are two of the greatest and far superior to Verdi and Rossini. If they are not that great, then the entire tradition is a sham, the entire musical culture has created art based on false premises, illusions and things of no value. But, as any individual of artistic sensitivity will tell you, that is not the case. If it was most popular among composers to say Wagner was worthless, then one could easily use the tradition to point out how that is wrong. And thankfully composers do not judge value as randomly as you think, since they understood the tradition, their own artistic culture, and judged, if not perfectly exact, nonetheless rightly.
You must realise, if you are going to make any progress, that technique and form are not irrelevant to beauty. Beauty in the largest sense of the word, and not just meaning superficial prettiness. It is through the many and highly complicated techniques and forms of classical music that its beauty is so great. Were it not for such complexity, what frame would Beethoven have had to animate each atom of with beauty.. he would have been forced to settle for a much smaller, simpler, inferior sort of expression.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
What matters more than how beautiful the music sounds?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Your emotional connection to it
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
If you prefer things that aren't beautiful you are an avant teen israelite and your opinion is worthless
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
The reference to greek here is not simply a comparison of quality but a matter of artistic philosophy anon. Wagner's artwork was a renvigoration of the spirit of Greek tragedy in its all-encompasing synthesis. It was only with Wagner, picking up the trail from Beethoven, who rediscovered the power in this soul-origin of artwork.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Sorry anon, but you're just not educated enough to understand. If you don't know why Wagner is a great composer then you're not familiar with music theory; if you don't know that Wagner has always been considered far superior to Italian opera then you're not familiar with the culture of 19th century music; if you don't understand the distinction between general artistic value and dramatic value then you're not familiar with aesthetics.
It's true, Mozart's operas have more dramatic value than most operas, but his music could only convey so much within the traditional operatic form, because it is still only his melodies imbuing the libretto with an unexpected life, and as a result it still pales before Aeschylus and Wagner as drama. And in Verdi and Rossini the orchestra might as well only exist to accompany the singers, since it's Italian opera, the concerns are only the singers, pretty vocal melodies for superficial entertainment. It is utterly superficial.
Sorry chaps, but the Marriage of Figaro is artistically the equal of anything by Wagner or the Greeks.
If you can't see that, I can't help you.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
You realise different types of art have different values and effects? It's not all just one big amorphous blob of 'art', like in your dark academia tiktok videos.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
So he was the greatest at doing the exact proffession he was doing and not other ones? Fricking moron. This is like complaining Shakespeare wasnt the greatest novelist because he still used words for his plays.
Wagner is like The Beatles who should probably be considered the best band of all time. They couldn't write lyrics like Leonard Cohen. They couldn't play instruments like The Doors. They couldn't sing like Robert Plant but they were good enough in all these and made enough consistently good albums to be considered the best. For me though I prefer being the best in one category than being a jack of all trades master of none.
You must have ceased to keep yourself informed after you soaked yourself with nazi-propaganda, sad. I'd give all of Wagner for Philip Glass's Akhnaten, to name just one.
Yeah cringe avant teens value being edgy over beauty. Doesn't mean I can't call them israelites
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Sorry this was for
You realise different types of art have different values and effects? It's not all just one big amorphous blob of 'art', like in your dark academia tiktok videos.
I saw a performance of Das Rheingold last year at the Dallas Opera and it rocked. Or ruled. When the gods rose up to the "Entry of the Gods into Valhalla" and then it was over and the lights went out, it brought the house down. I'm not an opera oficiando, but it clicked immediately about why there are so many Wagner freaks in that world, but I couldn't talk about the differences between musical forms or anything, but someone else mentioned the "sublime" and it felt like that.
Where the frick do you guys go to watch the opera? Also, aren't a lot of operas incredibly long and have to be broken up in multiple days' worth of viewings? Is it not super fricking expensive to see per show? I'd like to see an opera one day but I grew up quite poor and have no idea how I go about such things.
>Also, aren't a lot of operas incredibly long and have to be broken up in multiple days' worth of viewings?
I don't know a lot about it... but the full Ringe cycle would be broken up for sure and that seems fairly rare, but the opera here just did the first one which is 2.5 hours long. They did Elektra by Richard Strauss this year which is around two hours. Tickets were a bit pricey but it depends on the seats, and honestly it looks like a bargain compared to Taylor Swift. The average price point didn't seem that different from, I dunno, Metallica or Nine Inch Nails. Concerts have become pretty expensive.
This, Wagner is so dreary and Wagner fans are insufferable to be around during intermission.
>Wagner fans are insufferable to be around during intermission.
I stuck around for the Q&A and some of the performers made a sly joke about Wagner fans. I think the implication was that they can be like the autistic obsessives of the opera world.
Where the frick do you guys go to watch the opera? Also, aren't a lot of operas incredibly long and have to be broken up in multiple days' worth of viewings? Is it not super fricking expensive to see per show? I'd like to see an opera one day but I grew up quite poor and have no idea how I go about such things.
You need to live in a city with a decent opera. If you are a student you might be able to get a discount. I lived in Chicago for a while and my wife could get great seats for a song (pun intended) while she was in grad school. We saw lots of operas by a variety of composers. Many happy memories. Yes, they can be long but you can also meet some interesting and sophisticated people during intermission.
If you don't live close to a good opera house, cinemas do sometimes transmit operas.
https://i.imgur.com/0liBWG8.jpeg
I saw a performance of Das Rheingold last year at the Dallas Opera and it rocked. Or ruled. When the gods rose up to the "Entry of the Gods into Valhalla" and then it was over and the lights went out, it brought the house down. I'm not an opera oficiando, but it clicked immediately about why there are so many Wagner freaks in that world, but I couldn't talk about the differences between musical forms or anything, but someone else mentioned the "sublime" and it felt like that.
[...] >Also, aren't a lot of operas incredibly long and have to be broken up in multiple days' worth of viewings?
I don't know a lot about it... but the full Ringe cycle would be broken up for sure and that seems fairly rare, but the opera here just did the first one which is 2.5 hours long. They did Elektra by Richard Strauss this year which is around two hours. Tickets were a bit pricey but it depends on the seats, and honestly it looks like a bargain compared to Taylor Swift. The average price point didn't seem that different from, I dunno, Metallica or Nine Inch Nails. Concerts have become pretty expensive.
[...] >Wagner fans are insufferable to be around during intermission.
I stuck around for the Q&A and some of the performers made a sly joke about Wagner fans. I think the implication was that they can be like the autistic obsessives of the opera world.
>the full Ringe cycle would be broken up for sure and that seems fairly rare, but the opera here just did the first one which is 2.5 hours long
If the full cycle is played (e.g. annually at the Wagner Festspiele Bayreuth), it is usually performed in 4 subsequent days, yes. The Rheingold is composed without pauses, so it's performed in one go, the others have 3 acts each, so there are two pauses.
>The best presentation I ever saw on the evolved mating strategies of men and women: Die Meistersinger: Wagner at the Met
Jordan Peterson recently discovered Wagner.
>Art supporting gay Pride is inherently kino
While I'm pretty sure the rainbow road to Valhalla predates the gay pride movement, the opera is a good gay date night. One can only wonder what draws gays to the opera.
He's the safest edginess there is.
But as anons said above he pleases the autists of which there is a decent proportion here. I mean it literally. One of the manifestations of autism is strange reaction to sound and Wagner just give autists the correct tingle.
Here's my nomination.
>pride flag
>rainbow
>love will conquer all
>the gods are dead
frick this LGBT woke shit
The Rainbow belongs to God. Not homosexuals.
We need to reclaim it as a traditional Christian symbol tbh.
I thought the same thing until I got more into operas. There is much better than Wagner.
Wagner is bar none the greatest Operaist. That's not even contended. So you're obviously talking out your ass.
Yeah "Operaist" He was best at bringing it all together but he was not the best any individual category. He wasn't the best composer and wasn't the best writer
So he was the greatest at doing the exact proffession he was doing and not other ones? Fricking moron. This is like complaining Shakespeare wasnt the greatest novelist because he still used words for his plays.
That's an absurd criticism. Wagner is one of the greatest composers to ever live, saying he's not as good as Mozart is like downplaying Goethe because he's not as good as Shakespeare. They're both authors at the top of the game and equally worth reading, that Shakespeare may in the end be greater doesn't change anything.
And then, as the other anon says, we're talking about opera here, not music on its own. Comparing traditional opera with Wagner is like comparing the child to the man; none of them, even with the music of Mozart, can claim to be serious drama a la Greek tragedy.
>Comparing traditional opera with Wagner is like comparing the child to the man;
This is the wrong way around surely? Wagner never quite surpassed the level of Marriage of Figaro or Magic Flute. Both of which can hold their own very happily with anything the Greeks produced - not sure what your point is there.
Wagner was a fine opera composer like Verdi or Rossini - why this need to place him on a pedestal?
Sorry anon, but you're just not educated enough to understand. If you don't know why Wagner is a great composer then you're not familiar with music theory; if you don't know that Wagner has always been considered far superior to Italian opera then you're not familiar with the culture of 19th century music; if you don't understand the distinction between general artistic value and dramatic value then you're not familiar with aesthetics.
It's true, Mozart's operas have more dramatic value than most operas, but his music could only convey so much within the traditional operatic form, because it is still only his melodies imbuing the libretto with an unexpected life, and as a result it still pales before Aeschylus and Wagner as drama. And in Verdi and Rossini the orchestra might as well only exist to accompany the singers, since it's Italian opera, the concerns are only the singers, pretty vocal melodies for superficial entertainment. It is utterly superficial.
>It is utterly superficial.
Wagner isn't that deep. It's the best in an art form that is more about the music. That doesn't amount to much. Wagner's philosophy was superficial
You don't know the first thing about music. You think, like every pleb, that enjoyment or lack of enjoyment is all the criteria you need for judging a work of art. Wagner is expanding on late Beethoven in a free form, a nice singable opera melody isn't even on the same planet in terms of complexity and depth.
>expanding on late Beethoven in a free form, a nice singable opera melody isn't even on the same planet in terms of complexity and depth.
None of that matters when it comes to artistic worth.
You are like some metalhead insisting Tool or SOAD must be better than Taylor Swift because they sometimes use tricky time signatures
The drummer from tool looks like a toddler trying to play the drums sometimes because of weird time signatures during breakdowns and it cracks me up every time I see him do it. I love it by the way. No matter what you say tool is the peak of something maybe not all rock music for all time but they do reach the pinnacle of something.
The enormous complexity and innovation of Beethoven and Wagner are praised BECAUSE they allow for the sublime worth of their art. Capeshit is more beautiful than Shakespeare to plebs, is that an objective judgement?
It's like I'm talking to babies. Are you unfamiliar with the nature of genius? Have you never heard of Raphael's influence, do you not know that the genius subsumes both technical mastery and artistic worth? In the realm of genius, pop music similes are no longer possible. You are such incorrigible fools. Why are you giving your opinions when you know full well that you have no right an opinion with your level of knowledge? You need to be spoonfed the basics, go away and get that from somewhere before you give your opinions. When you are this unfamiliar with a topic, you should look to the artistic tradition's estimation of its own artists and hold that as your estimation too, because you cannot judge for yourself as of yet. It is pure arrogance to do otherwise.
Wagner was a big influence on the israeli postmodern movement in music. I'm sure you're a big fan of that but this is why I don't value things like "complexity" and "genius". Beauty is the only thing that should be measured or you end up with Morton Feldman and Boulez
Wagner was a big influence on EVERYONE. So was Beethoven, so was Mozart. There are abstract painters inspired by Tintoretto. The fact that geniuses have inspired some people negatively doesn't mean anything. You're just a dolt with stupid taste and you should be fine with that taste without having to depreciate genius. What you don't realise is that all those composers which you, entirely subjectively and superficially, find 'beautiful', have themselves valued genius, because they were real composers who studied and understood music.
>Towards the end of his long and successful life, Verdi could afford to admit to Felix Philippi: ‘The work which always arouses my greatest admiration is Tristan. This gigantic structure fills me time and time again with astonishment and awe, and I still cannot quite comprehend that it was conceived and written by a human being. I consider the second act, in its wealth of musical invention, its tenderness and sensuality of musical expression and inspired orchestration, to be one of the finest creations that has ever issued from a human mind.’
>During Puccini's work on Turandot he glanced again at the score of Tristan, only to put it down again with the words: 'Enough of this music! We're mandolinists, amateurs: woe to him who gets caught by it! This tremendous music destroys one and renders one incapable of composing any more!'
It's consensus that Wagner was the precursor of modernism. Have you actually listened to Wagner? Do you know music theory? It's closer to postmodernism than it is to Mozart. I don't really have a problem with Wagner I have a problem with saying beauty is not important. It's the only important thing. Wagner has parts that are beautiful and that is why he is great. Not because he was "different" because you can't be more different than Boulez.
No one said beauty is not important. It's your stupid assumption that only the beauty that you individually can see or appreciate is real beauty, when you're only binding yourself to your plebeian taste. Once again, when a capeshitter thinks Avengers Endgame is more beautiful than Shakespeare, and justifies this by saying that Shakespeare's only more complex but not artistically more valuable, how do you counter this? Because you have no respect for the tradition's own values of beauty, the personally judged beauty is all important for you.. what's this? It seems you're the one who's closer to avant garde shit, with your own tearing down of artistic culture!
Mozart leads to Beethoven, Beethoven leads to Wagner. There's a consistent progress throughout musical history, especially in the Germanic tradition. And no, Wagner is not closer to postmodernism than he is to Mozart. Wagner is firmly within the common practice period, postmodernists are far past it. Mozart wrote daring dissonances, that certainly wouldn't be considered beautiful by you:
You're talking about popularity. No one said anything about being popular. I'm asking what is more important than what is beautiful? What is placed higher than that?
Mind explaining how, and where, I'm talking about 'popularity'? And would you actually answer the questions in the post?
By bringing up Avengers I thought you were referring to popularity but I now I see you are just doing the postmodern everything is subjective argument. Are you sure you aren't israeli? Do you think you can't say Avengers Endgame is not beautiful or are only the people in the superhero world allowed to make claims like that?
>you are just doing the postmodern everything is subjective argument.
No, I'm not. That's what you're doing, I'm demonstrating your own argument, and you can now see how shallow it is. You're so slow, YOU MUST HAVE AN IQ OF 90. You're saying the entire musical tradition was wrong to find the music of genius the most beautiful, and for that tradition to believe that there was an objective basis for the greater beauty in the music of genius.
I am saying that there is far greater, infinitely greater, beauty than what you believe is the apex of beauty. Who is right, you, or the artistic tradition?
>Who is right, you, or the artistic tradition?
Which tradition? When does the tradition stop?
>Which tradition?
>When does the tradition stop?
Again, it sounds like you're the subjectivist anon. Were you hoping nullify any hard definitions of this tradition and thereby deny its existence as a determiner of artistic value? You have the most blatant evidence from almost everyone in that tradition, even from composers like Verdi that you apparently consider at the top, that Beethoven, Wagner, etc., stand above everyone else in their beauty, which in matters of genius also means technical mastery. Since, once again you must be spoonfed, this higher beauty is only possible through the elevated art at use.
I'm saying tradition is irrelevant what matters is the objective criteria that you set for any piece of art. You can't nail down a tradition because bad art will always make it into a tradition. And there were great artists and great art where the consensus of the tradition was that it was bad. If the tradition said Wagner was worthless hack you would agree with them?
The tradition includes and is the objective criteria. A tradition is not, as you seem to think, a list of names. It is a living thing. Wagner and Beethoven, for every possible reason, justified with every possible demonstration, are two of the greatest and far superior to Verdi and Rossini. If they are not that great, then the entire tradition is a sham, the entire musical culture has created art based on false premises, illusions and things of no value. But, as any individual of artistic sensitivity will tell you, that is not the case. If it was most popular among composers to say Wagner was worthless, then one could easily use the tradition to point out how that is wrong. And thankfully composers do not judge value as randomly as you think, since they understood the tradition, their own artistic culture, and judged, if not perfectly exact, nonetheless rightly.
You must realise, if you are going to make any progress, that technique and form are not irrelevant to beauty. Beauty in the largest sense of the word, and not just meaning superficial prettiness. It is through the many and highly complicated techniques and forms of classical music that its beauty is so great. Were it not for such complexity, what frame would Beethoven have had to animate each atom of with beauty.. he would have been forced to settle for a much smaller, simpler, inferior sort of expression.
What matters more than how beautiful the music sounds?
Your emotional connection to it
If you prefer things that aren't beautiful you are an avant teen israelite and your opinion is worthless
The reference to greek here is not simply a comparison of quality but a matter of artistic philosophy anon. Wagner's artwork was a renvigoration of the spirit of Greek tragedy in its all-encompasing synthesis. It was only with Wagner, picking up the trail from Beethoven, who rediscovered the power in this soul-origin of artwork.
Sorry chaps, but the Marriage of Figaro is artistically the equal of anything by Wagner or the Greeks.
If you can't see that, I can't help you.
You realise different types of art have different values and effects? It's not all just one big amorphous blob of 'art', like in your dark academia tiktok videos.
Wagner is like The Beatles who should probably be considered the best band of all time. They couldn't write lyrics like Leonard Cohen. They couldn't play instruments like The Doors. They couldn't sing like Robert Plant but they were good enough in all these and made enough consistently good albums to be considered the best. For me though I prefer being the best in one category than being a jack of all trades master of none.
Further proof that Mozart is underrated.
This, Wagner is so dreary and Wagner fans are insufferable to be around during intermission.
You must have ceased to keep yourself informed after you soaked yourself with nazi-propaganda, sad. I'd give all of Wagner for Philip Glass's Akhnaten, to name just one.
>putting philip glass over wagner
This is literal insanity. I can't believe I share a board with 'people' like this.
>I can't believe I share a board with 'people' like this
True, you don't.
Yeah cringe avant teens value being edgy over beauty. Doesn't mean I can't call them israelites
Sorry this was for
>Philip Glass's Akhnaten
This one is cool when the tambours go banging.
>There is much better than Wagner.
Like what?
The Ring tells the fate of our entire civilisation. We are heading towards our Gotterdammerung.
I just saw Rhinegold and Walkure. I plan on seeing the other 2 in a week or so.
I'm inclined to agree.
I saw a performance of Das Rheingold last year at the Dallas Opera and it rocked. Or ruled. When the gods rose up to the "Entry of the Gods into Valhalla" and then it was over and the lights went out, it brought the house down. I'm not an opera oficiando, but it clicked immediately about why there are so many Wagner freaks in that world, but I couldn't talk about the differences between musical forms or anything, but someone else mentioned the "sublime" and it felt like that.
>Also, aren't a lot of operas incredibly long and have to be broken up in multiple days' worth of viewings?
I don't know a lot about it... but the full Ringe cycle would be broken up for sure and that seems fairly rare, but the opera here just did the first one which is 2.5 hours long. They did Elektra by Richard Strauss this year which is around two hours. Tickets were a bit pricey but it depends on the seats, and honestly it looks like a bargain compared to Taylor Swift. The average price point didn't seem that different from, I dunno, Metallica or Nine Inch Nails. Concerts have become pretty expensive.
>Wagner fans are insufferable to be around during intermission.
I stuck around for the Q&A and some of the performers made a sly joke about Wagner fans. I think the implication was that they can be like the autistic obsessives of the opera world.
Where the frick do you guys go to watch the opera? Also, aren't a lot of operas incredibly long and have to be broken up in multiple days' worth of viewings? Is it not super fricking expensive to see per show? I'd like to see an opera one day but I grew up quite poor and have no idea how I go about such things.
You need to live in a city with a decent opera. If you are a student you might be able to get a discount. I lived in Chicago for a while and my wife could get great seats for a song (pun intended) while she was in grad school. We saw lots of operas by a variety of composers. Many happy memories. Yes, they can be long but you can also meet some interesting and sophisticated people during intermission.
If you don't live close to a good opera house, cinemas do sometimes transmit operas.
>the full Ringe cycle would be broken up for sure and that seems fairly rare, but the opera here just did the first one which is 2.5 hours long
If the full cycle is played (e.g. annually at the Wagner Festspiele Bayreuth), it is usually performed in 4 subsequent days, yes. The Rheingold is composed without pauses, so it's performed in one go, the others have 3 acts each, so there are two pauses.
Gotterdammerung alone is an over six hour experience because of the two half an hour breaks.
For me it's St. John's Gospel or Bach's Cello Suites.
What's the best recorded version of The Ring>
For me Karajan 1968 has the best singers.
Keilberth 52 for performances but not for recording quality.
Bohm's is the fastest. Apparently the opera took far less time in Wagner's day.
The standard answer is Solti.
Very reminiscent of the "Rockbow Rock" post I just made regarding the Rainbow Rock ebook.
That's not Bach's Matthew Passion!
>The best presentation I ever saw on the evolved mating strategies of men and women: Die Meistersinger: Wagner at the Met
Jordan Peterson recently discovered Wagner.
https://podclips.com/c/4jwKzh
Art supporting gay Pride is inherently kino
Simple as
>Art supporting gay Pride is inherently kino
While I'm pretty sure the rainbow road to Valhalla predates the gay pride movement, the opera is a good gay date night. One can only wonder what draws gays to the opera.
Why are there so many Wagnergays on this board
Who is even going to the opera to see Wagner in the year 2024
He's the safest edginess there is.
But as anons said above he pleases the autists of which there is a decent proportion here. I mean it literally. One of the manifestations of autism is strange reaction to sound and Wagner just give autists the correct tingle.