I care about security but I'm not really convinced Xorg is that much of a problem compared to Wayland. Can Wayland really be more secure when it now allows screenshotting/sharing and global kebinds (which was the complaint with Xorg's security)?
Why is it better than rootless Xorg, which works with more programs and is easier to use?
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Also, why do people say Wayland is for trannies?
screenshotting and global keybinds in wayland are supposed to be hidden behind a permission gate
xwayland is pretty much the same thing as rootless xorg
rentfree /misc/ posters try to change the subject of every conversation to being about transwomen, just ignore them
They are some of its loudest promoters
Tbh trannies are everywhere now. If there's something they can't do is shutting up for 10 minutes on the internet.
Fud from people who know nothing about CS but want to hop on the WAYLAND BAD bandwagon.
What does Wayland have to do with CS?
just use whatever your distro comes with
I have a choice for my next install. I don't mind that Wayland doesn't have all the WMs as I'm going to use KDE.
>screenshotting and global keybinds in wayland are supposed to be hidden behind a permission gate
So if a program wants to record the screen it asks first and I can either deny or allow?
>xwayland is pretty much the same thing as rootless xorg
Does it work with everything xorg works with? Like old Windows games through Wine?
>So if a program wants to record the screen it asks first and I can either deny or allow?
yes in gnome and kde at least
>Does it work with everything xorg works with? Like old Windows games through Wine?
yes it only wont work for DE type shit like panels and screensavers and stuff
Alright, thanks for answering
this is the correct response. if your distro doesn't come with one, then just read the articles on the arch wiki for both and decide which makes more sense for your use-case and hardware.
anybody saying otherwise, that you have to select one over the other, is pushing some weird open source psuedo-political agenda.
vitriolic xorg diehards will call you a homosexual troony who loves broken software if you use wayland for any reason (including their own project's legacy tech debt), and equally-vitriolic wayland diehards will call you an insecure already-hacked moron for using xorg for any reason (including their project's own large hardware incompatibilities).
both of them are moronic and, as always, the right answer is found somewhere away from either of these seething morons.
Except I can't do that because Wayland is a piece of shit. There's a reason why Ubuntu and every other distro besides Fedora comes with X11, and in Fedora the first thing I end up having to do is install Xorg just to get shit to work.
>can't drag and drop between wayland and xwayland programs
I shiggy diggy
>bugs that never happened
i shiggy diggy
gimp acts pretty weird under wayland, hope they release the new gimp version soon
try to drag n drop files from a zip file to a folder under wayland 😉
works on my machine
when I open a zip file and try to drag and drop the files in it to a normal open folder it doesn't work.
File-roller uses wayland though.
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/file-roller/-/issues/4
no it doesn't work on your machine.
Why would you lie like that.
Wayland makes it possible to restrict privleged functions like screenshotting/global keybinds/screen locking behind permissions that could be granted to sandboxes but I'm not aware of any compositor/DE that actually makes use of it. I do know that there are at least protocols available/in the works and implementations on the wlroots/sway side.
PipeWire is doing a similar thing on the audio side - it's possible to eg. allow audio playback but deny microphone recording for a sandbox. I think Flatpak might be using it now, or at least should be using it at some point in the future.
We'll just have to give it some time I guess.
Xwayland programs won't be able to keylog Wayland programs / do screen recording of the whole desktop through the X11 socket. Some compositors/DEs isolate each program in their own Xwayland instance so Xwayland programs can't keylog each other, and some use the same Xwayland instance for all Xwayland programs.
The big problem with Wayland is that it was made by people who understood what X got wrong, but didn't understand what X got right. The fools!
Name one thing X got right
Probably color management, variable refresh rates and front buffer rendering.
Lmao what, it literally has all of those wrong. Try again
- Extensible architecture: Thanks to extensions X11 can be used reliably even 40 years after it's inception despite vastly changing graphics hardware
- Standardized interfaces: You can exchange the Window manager and Compositor at *runtime* without affecting running programs thanks to standardized interfaces
- Strong reference implementation: It just works and represents a de-facto standard for things that are not yet completely standardized
What's your point, Wayland also has all of that
>wayland is extensible
It is, the extension mechanism is mostly copied from X
No it doesn't!
- Extensible architecture: thinks like vsync configuration, access control protocols and proper color management are stuck in upstream because it does not satisfy the taste of the maintainers
- Standardized interfaces: It is *not* possible to exchange Window Manager and Compositor at runtime. Wayland is designed to be monolithic. Also there are no standardized access control protocols. This is why you need a different screenshot program for each compositor.
- Strong reference implementation: There is Weston which everybody chooses to ignore. As a result there are many incompatible Compositors which are not compatible in areas that are not defined by the core protocol.
>thinks like vsync configuration, access control protocols and proper color management are stuck in upstream because it does not satisfy the taste of the maintainers
The reason they can do that is *because* it's extensible
>It is *not* possible to exchange Window Manager and Compositor at runtime.
Irrelevant, it has standardized interfaces for everything else, they just left those interfaces out because they're stupid and useless
>you need a different screenshot program for each compositor.
You literally don't
>There is Weston which everybody chooses to ignore.
Nobody ignores it, all developers working on new features target weston first. It's the same as X
>As a result there are many incompatible Compositors which are not compatible in areas that are not defined by the core protocol.
It's still the same as X, there are many X compositors that aren't compatible with each other too, you can't run compiz plugins on kwin, you can't run kwin effects on picom, etc
> Irrelevant, it has standardized interfaces for everything else
If you call blitting some bitmaps *everything else*, sure. As a whole what's been standardized after 13 years of development is not exactly a lot to say the least.
But why are you even defending this crap. Fishing for b8? or paid shil?
Wayland does not "blit bitmaps" you're thinking of X11 with its masks and clip regions. Everything in Wayland is alpha composited by default, ideally with precomputed alpha
>But why are you even defending this crap.
Explaining facts is not "defending" something
> Explaining facts is not "defending" something
So you admit that you are a paid shill? Pathetic. Get a real job loser.
How old are you? What's your real job?
You still didn't deny to be a paid shill... this confirms it then.
You have to be 18 or older to post here, please leave
LOL! How pathetic can any *Display Protocol* be that it needs paid shills for promotion.
Paid shills, please leave!
When you grow up you'll realize that it's better not to be an unemployed loser
Some people would rather be unemployed than being a pathetic paid shill like you.
Those people are underage and need to leave
Paid shills leave first.
All Xorg users are paid nvidia shills. I agree they should leave
Nvidia knows what's good.
>engineers prefer xorg
>managers prefer wayland
Hmmm...
Nowhere in that tweet does it say X is good
One driver engineer versus all other driver engineers, all DE developers, all app developers
Ah yes, the 'ol "this is why Linux gaming will never be good" dilemma
>everyone agrees that there are problems with X going into the future
>nvidia engineers (who have already stifled wayland development) say that it's shit
>won't bother to meet anyone half way or improve anything because of autism when even AMD is mogging them
But hey, at least I can finally open the nvidia control panel that has no options after 10 years of them dragging their feet!
>everyone agrees that there are problems with X going into the future
Only a loud minority of paid Wayland shills agree on that. Everyone else agrees that X just werks and will do so in the future.
>gaming
Well I think I found your problem right there.
Still here for hours every day arguing about Wayland.
What a sad freak!
Every few weeks i wonder if you are still here, and i find a thread with 50% of the posts being from you, just like always.
Says he, while being the other 50% of posts in the same threads
X is mechanism not policy. Wayland is exactly the opposite. As a developer, it gets pretty annoying because in xorg there's a lot of things you are free to do as a client. In wayland, the answer is often "you can't do that" or "you shouldn't do that". i.e. Wayland is highly opinionated and annoyingly so.
>X is mechanism not policy
X didn't get that right. In X you have 100 competing DEs and WMs that each set their own policy telling you "you can't do that" or "you shouldn't do that" as a client, it's *more* annoying than Wayland
Wrong and I literally don't give a frick if some random WM is moronic. Xorg itself isn't opinionated. The wayland protocol and extensions are.
>Wrong
No
>I literally don't give a frick if some random WM is moronic
Okay you can also do the same for Wayland WMs
>Xorg itself isn't opinionated
Doesn't matter, you don't build software for Xorg you build for the 10000 combinations of DE and WM that distros actually ship
>The wayland protocol and extensions are.
Lmao, most Wayland extensions and protocol features are straight copies from X
>Doesn't matter, you don't build software for Xorg you build for the 10000 combinations of DE and WM that distros actually ship
This is completely wrong and exposes your LARP. Everyone writes against standard xorg libraries and extensions. Whether or not some random DE/WM handles them properly is quite literally "not my problem". Go fix your bug. Wayland should have worked the same way, but everyone decided to reinvent the wheel and many compositors/applications implement their own custom extensions which is annoying. I luckily don't have to play that game and only target the standard ones, but there are still too many things that are specific to each compositor.
>This is completely wrong
Incorrect
>and exposes your LARP.
Incorrect
>Everyone writes against standard xorg libraries and extensions.
No they write against toolkits and frameworks, nobody uses pure xlib in 2022 to write applications
>Whether or not some random DE/WM handles them properly is quite literally "not my problem".
It is quite literally your problem when users report bugs to you complaining it doesn't work with their obscure combination of i3 configs or dwm patches or some shit
>Wayland should have worked the same way
It does
>but everyone decided to reinvent the wheel and many compositors/applications implement their own custom extensions which is annoying
X11 DEs also implement their own custom extensions, it's *more* annoying because there are way more of them
>but there are still too many things that are specific to each compositor
Same thing with X11 WMs and compositors
>No they write against toolkits and frameworks
Depends on what your program is, but toolkits all target xlib or xcb so it's the same end result.
>It is quite literally your problem
Buggy WMs are not my problem.
>X11 DEs also implement their own custom extensions
No they don't.
>Same thing with X11 WMs and compositors
This is also not true. Just name one. Here's a bunch of wlroots-specific wayland protocols. https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wlroots/wlr-protocols
>Depends on what your program is, but toolkits all target xlib or xcb so it's the same end result.
Then the toolkit abstracts it all away and you don't have to worry about that shit
>Buggy WMs are not my problem.
You could say the same about buggy wayland implementations
>No they don't.
Yes they do
>This is also not true.
No
>Just name one.
All of them
>Here's a bunch of wlroots-specific wayland protocols.
Wlroots is bad and contributes more to fragmentation than any other implementation. Tell anyone using it to frick off with their buggy shit
Plasma also has custom protocols.
https://github.com/KDE/plasma-wayland-protocols
Fricking weston has custom protocols (top kek). So much for "reference implementation".
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/weston/-/tree/main/protocol
Mutter appears to only use one custom protocol.
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/tree/main/src/wayland/protocol
You won't find any equivalent for any well known xorg WM. I'll wait until you do.
Irrelevant. All of those are private protocols, not meant to be used by applications
>gtk_shell is a protocol extension providing additional features for clients implementing it.
Woops! You only had to look at a link for a couple of seconds to see that the statement you just made is not true.
Doesn't say that it's not private. The only client that implements it is gtk, ask a gtk developer and they'll tell you not to use it
>it's private! just ignore all the gtk clients that use it!
uh huh
It's an implementation detail of gtk, applications should never use it directly they only use it through the toolkit. I said this before
Agreed, ignore all paid nvidia shills trying to promote xorg
Nobody shills for Xorg. It kinda works but its not great.
However Wayland managed to create something worse which is quiet the achievement.
Without paid shills nobody would talk about Wayland at all. Just like nobody talks about Arcan.
It's the other way around, without paid shills nobody would talk about Xorg, every real Linux eveloper knows that Xorg is shit and needs to be replaced
imagine being so narcissistic and mentally fragile that your worldview needs to be "anyone who holds a different opinion for any reason is 100% a paid shill" lmao
the two of you make me want to go back to a non-graphical, terminal based world. you're an embarrassment to both projects.
Good, my long game is for both of them to die and Linux dies along with it
>and Linux dies along with it
kek
So far the dude did not deny that he is a paid shill.
And considering how weak his arguments are it is safe to assume he is a paid shill until proven otherwise.
Yes it's safe to assume all Xorg pushers are nvidia shills. We covered that already.
paid by whom?
to what end?
why here of all places?
why is it profitable to anyone to endlessly bicker with another moron as stupid as you over something as inconsequential as a fricking display server?
you don't actually think there are enough "potential customers" on one side or another that are being won over with this display here, do you?
since we're making baseless accusations that are impossible to prove as true or false, i choose to believe that you are both the same person, arguing with yourself in the hopes someone will give you a scrap of attention that you don't receive in your day-to-day, friendless, familyless, loveless lives.
You don't understand Internet debate. If he says "I am not a shill" you either won't believe him or will make some other moronic accusation he has to defend.
I mean he called you a shill and you didn't deny it either. Does that mean you're a shill? What moronic logic.
He called me underage and unemployed. I deny being both. Also I'm not a shill, neither paid nor unpaid.
He has not denied to be a paid shill yet. So its safe to assume he is.
>He called me underage and unemployed. I deny being both.
We don't believe you. Xorg shills are known to be notorious liars.
>Also I'm not a shill
We don't believe you. Xorg shills are known to be notorious liars.
>We don't believe you. Xorg shills are known to be notorious liars.
We don't believe you. Gayland shills are known to be notorious homosexual liars.
Quick google-fu gave me:
https://lobste.rs/s/rrqrqe/where_would_you_start_with_new_desktop#c_l7lz2x
"If I had time to do DE-like things today, I’d contribute to Arcan. It’s the first thing I’ve seen in a long time that looks as if someone is building tooling that enables the kind of system I want to be running ten years from now."
That's some high fricking praise, doubt MS research Cambridge are "paid shills".
>lobste.rs
the frick is this? Some HN wannabe?
>It's an implementation detail of gtk, applications should never use it directly they only use it through the toolkit. I said this before
This is just sophistry. gtk is client. It uses this protocol so therefore it is not prviate to mutter. That's hardly the only example on that list anyway. Just look for literally two seconds you can find more.
>Clients can make use of this extension to pass the dmabuf buffer to the display controller, potentially increasing the performance and lowering the bandwidth usage.
>Offers an error message so the client knows the created event will not arrive, and the client should close the resource
Woops, looks like clients are meant to use some of these nonstandard extensions after all.
>gtk is client. It uses this protocol so therefore it is not prviate to mutter
That's not what private means here. Technically yes all other apps can access it if they want, however gtk reserves the right to change it and break it any time they want, it's not intended for applications to access directly
>clients are meant to use some of these nonstandard extensions after all.
Yes, private clients building functionality specific to that DE
More sophistry over the definition of the client, but funnily enough you conceded my point anyway.
>Yes, private clients building functionality specific to that DE
That been exactly my complaint. Clients in wayland world often have to target nonstandard interfaces because the core protocol and extensions are not good enough. You don't have to do this in xorg and indeed nobody does.
>More sophistry over the definition of the client
No, client means the same thing
>but funnily enough you conceded my point anyway.
Your point didn't make sense, you can't have a protocol that's private to mutter. It's private between mutter and gtk
>That been exactly my complaint.
It's not a valid complaint
>Clients in wayland world often have to target nonstandard interfaces
No they don't, this is *not* for normal clients, this is for building something that integrates with that DE. You would use those protocols if you were a gtk or kde developer
>because the core protocol and extensions are not good enough
They never will be "good enough" to do everything because that's impossible, only generic stuff goes in the core protocol and extensions
>You don't have to do this in xorg
Yes you do, *every* X WM and DE has private functionality too
>No they don't, this is *not* for normal clients, this is for building something that integrates with that DE. You would use those protocols if you were a gtk or kde developer
Several things I listed were from wlroots and weston. Of course, you didn't actually look at them.
>Yes you do, *every* X WM and DE has private functionality too
Name one.
>Several things I listed were from wlroots and weston.
Irrelevant, only use those if developing private functionality to wlroots or weston
>Of course, you didn't actually look at them.
There's nothing to look at
>Name one.
Compiz plugins, dwm patches, gnome shell extensions, plasma widgets, conky panels, gtk modules...
Literally none of those are custom X11 protocol extensions. You don't even understand the topic.
They don't need to be implemented inside the X server as extensions to be private functionality to the DE. This is why *you* don't understand the topic, the fact that some private functions might be implemented as wayland extensions is irrelevant
Exposed as a LARP yet again. We do this every single time. You don't understand the difference between a dwm patch (i.e. C code to add functionality to dwm because it's a broken POS) and a custom wayland protocol. Have a nice day.
>Exposed as a LARP yet again.
No
>We do this every single time.
Who is "we", tell me your name
>You don't understand the difference between a dwm patch and a custom wayland protocol
I do but you missed the point completely. Both of them are things you can't access as an *application* developer. You can only access them as *dwm* developer, get what "private" means now?
DWM patches existing have literally no relevance to the value of xorg or wayland as display servers. Stop embarrassing yourself.
Yes they do and I'll explain it in detail.
Technically you can write an application that detects dwm, patches it, adds functionality and restarts it, giving your application extra capabilities when running under dwm. This would give extra functionality for your app but *only* when dwm is in use, that's what it means for that functionality to be "private" between your program and dwm.
Do you see the parallel here with wayland extensions implementing functionality that only applications private to the DE can use? I'll spell it out more if you need me to
A dwm patch doesn't target a random application you fricking moron. It targets dwm. Random applications don't gain functionality. It's dwm that gains it. Why are you so insistent on being stupid?
All of that is incorrect, you're not thinking this through. You can easily write a dwm patch that checks the owner of the window and does special things when it sees that window, this is one of the first things that people do when patching dwm
That's still adding functionality to dwn not the application idiot.
It's actually both, you're writing the functionality to only work with *your* application windows
Not a single line of code in the application changed. Frick off.
Yes it did. Read this part again
>Technically you can write an application that detects dwm, patches it, adds functionality and restarts it
And stop being so edgy and angry at me, it's really really cringe. You're acting like a teenager
>Yes it did.
No it didn't. You don't even know what a "dwm patch" means kek. What a dumb LARPer.
I said *stop* being edgy and angry, not keep doing it
I'm actually laughing my ass off now. Keep it up. What other common terminology will you misunderstand next?
I said *stop* being edgy and angry, not keep doing it
By the way, you're misusing the word edgy.
average Wayland troon
It's cross platform. I can take code that displays on Linux and have it display on Windows or macOS or Solaris (if you can find one these days lol) with absolutely no code changes at all. (Some of those will need third party code installed, but that stuff does exist and has done for a long time.)
X actually works, despite its many (many!) warts. By contrast, Wayland's mostly seemed to be trying to fix things that aren't a problem for most people. And they've brought an awful lot of noxious attitude in too; maybe it's fine for people working at Redhat, but it's really toxic towards third parties.
>It's cross platform.
Only thing I might agree with, but this is negligible because now you can just use other crossplatform stuff like VNC to access it
>By contrast, Wayland's mostly seemed to be trying to fix things that aren't a problem for most people
That's understandable, most people aren't X developers and don't know the extent of the shortcomings in X
>And they've brought an awful lot of noxious attitude in too; maybe it's fine for people working at Redhat
The attitude is literally the same as Xorg, Redhat was also a major developer of Xorg in the past
>but it's really toxic towards third parties
Xorg was worse, it's still impossible to get code merged in X on any reasonable time frame
>most people aren't X developers and don't know the extent of the shortcomings in X
Suuuure, but I'm a toolkit developer, the sort of person you want to get onside in order to get a whole raft of programs ported. I do know the shortcomings of X, but everything I've ever seen from Wayland has felt like someone giving me the middle finger. I shouldn't have to read lots of source code to find out how to get a basic hello world app going (without using GTK).
Libwayland is similar to libxcb in the way that code is a lot more verbose because everything is async. They're optimizing for performance not for minimizing lines of code in hello world apps
Unironically this.
gayland was shit 10 years ago. gayland is shit now. gayland will be shit in 10 years
Xorg because wayland didn't even work with my graphics card who use 470 nvidia drivers.
Free software users united against free software!
Wayland is a solution in search of a problem. It doesn't do anything that Xorg can't.
Xorg cannot do VRR
Factually incorrect
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Variable_refresh_rate
>keylogging
If your system is running a keylogger then you are already compromised homosexual
>Factually incorrect
No
>https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Variable_refresh_rate
Driver feature, not a feature of Xorg
>If your system is running a keylogger then you are already compromised homosexual
Incorrect. X is a remote keylogger so your machine doesn't even need to get compromised
>X is a remote keylogger so your machine doesn't even need to get compromised
Care to elaborate?
A main feature of X11 is where you can run clients remotely over the network
A main goal of Wayland is that it doesn't put networking in the windowing system just as bash doesn't bring the network to a remote shell.
It's trivial to add on later.
> just as bash doesn't bring the network to a remote shell.
Bash implements the /dev/tcp pseudo device. So technically it brings networking to the shell...
>Driver feature, not a feature of Xorg
Xorg is intentionally designed like that to make it flexible for driver vendors. Which is why nvidia works on x11 but still to this day has issues on wayland and had the drama with eglstream/gbm. Wayland devs force hardware manufacturers to bend to their design which may be completely different than their own implementation. gbm right not in nvidia is even just emulated eglstream so there are unecessary frame copies.
Here is the VRR code in xorg btw: https://github.com/freedesktop/xorg-xserver/blob/master/hw/xfree86/drivers/modesetting/driver.c#L145
>it's no big deal that any program can see everything the keyboard types even when it's not the program in focus
>it's no big deal that any program can record everything on the screen with no feedback
>this is fine
>https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Variable_refresh_rate
Does not work on intel iGPU, and many other GPU models. Xorg shills are spineless liars.
>If you want to use Gsync and possibly Freesync on X11, only the Gsync/Freesync monitor must be connected.
>On X11, multiple monitors in a single X display will break Gsync/Freesync, however, this problem does not exist on Wayland.
Absolute state of Xtrash.
Wayland solves the keylogging issues in X. Why is Wayland associated with trannies?
Y'all pleas top takin b8 from paid shills. Thx!
wayland's "security" does not exist, it is a protocol suggestion in practice and dropping an LD_PRELOAD backdoor is far more effective than bullshitting about with moron powered display server protocols.
Xorg doesn't need to be patched with LD_PRELOAD to let yoy exploit its keylogger
there is no keylogger in xorg, but an unprivileged user could run one as long as they could run a graphical program. that's not a problem for normal people. if you'd install a xorg keylogger you'd gladly install a wayland keylogger and add yourself to the input group. it's a problem for sysadmins who have computers that are left alone with potentially malicious actors.
same thing as the screensaver "problem". does it affect you? not except in your spy fantasies. does it affect random fricks on redhat workstations that belong to their employer? yes.
Lot of mental gymnastics. To "install" a keylogger in wayland you have to patch the wayland compositor itself. Xorg keylogger works ootb.
Arbitrary input logging has been possible to avoid on X11 with XACE for years. But of course, using something that already works wouldn't create enough jobs.
This relies on SELinux, say goodbye to debian, arch and gentoo based distros.
Once again, Xorg shills are spineless lying rats.
>relies on SELinux
Yes. The problem being...?
>say goodbye to debian, arch and gentoo based distros
Why? You can use SELinux on those distributions too. Where exactly is the lie?
At the very least, Apparmour does not play well with SELinux. If you want to properly set it up on Gentoo you need to spend too much time on configuring your distro and most of the time you'll fail because the documentation keeps changing on each update. Xorg is free if your time has no value.
You CAN use SELinux on Arch, Debian and Gentoo, period. The fact that you got personally offended by this and started shifting the goalposts around is not exactly my concern.
If you value your time so much, stop doing it for free on this Korean chicken fighting forum.
>You CAN use SELinux on Arch, Debian and Gentoo, period.
Not in practice. I dare you to show me one (ONE) properly configured SELinux ubuntu setup in the internet. I won't hold my breath.
Xorg is only good on paper.
What do you mean by "not in practice"? It's not exactly some kind of exotic configuration. Both Arch and Debian ship a default Linux image with SELinux support compiled in and they have detailed guides about it. Don't know about the default gentoo-kernel-bin package, but SELinux tools are provided just the same.
Anecdotally, I have directly interacted with at least a couple dozen Debian servers which all had SELinux enabled and working. Never seen an Arch or Gentoo install use SELinux personally, but those are generally not distributions where security is a primary concern.
doesn't Debian use AppArmor instead?
By default, yes. However, you can use SELinux if you want, it's just not initially enabled in a standard install.
I mean if you value your time you wouldn't be using Gentoo in the first place. Use a just works distro like Fedora.
What is xace
Whats the best WM for wayland? I hear a lot about sway.
All of this autistic screeching is just telling me it doesn't matter which one I use.
I will probably stick try wayland but switch back to xorg if something doesn't easily work.
>Not gaming?
Wayland
>Gaming?
X
Simple.
Even old games?
>gaming?
>Wayland
werks on my machina
I can play games on my wayland/nvidia machine, no problems.
bump
wayland is shit lol it locks the compositor fps to the client fps imagine alt-tabbing and your desktop is suddenly running at 48fps lmao literally unusable shit.
This is something that people don't talk about enough.
The "every frame is perfect" philosophy leads to this class of problems.
They don't talk about it because it's not something that actually happens.
That's true, running Wayland is not something that people actually do.
NOOO THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEANT!!! AHHH!!
Touch grass.
Literally not how it works. It just works how Mac OS and Windows (as well as iOS and Android) have worked for 20 years.
it literally doesn't matter
the benefits and downsides of both are completely irrelevant to everybody except actual system administrators (you are not one of those)
just choose the environment you like and use whichever protocol it uses by default
I prefer Wayland because knowing how it works under the hood soothes my autism.
The display server used is relevant especially to end users, not to "system administrators", that applies to something such as an init system. You have no idea what you're talking about.
no, it's not
the desktop environment is relevant, not the backend it runs on
there is no meaningful difference between running gnome on xorg or wayland
Yes there is. The cursor doesn't stutter on X, drag and drop from archives works as intended and you can share your screen. Wayland provides none of these features.
bugs with wayland are bugs with gnome as far as most people are concerned
a solution that requires changing options is a solution that might as well not exist for lots of people
unfortunately for gnome, most of their userbase is going to be part of that group
Gnome needs to drop X support soon, so it can focus on fixing any wayland bugs. Will be much easier to just support one backend.
Many of its Wayland bugs are fundamentally unfixable since they are protocol issues, not implementation issues.
Name a single one. I'll wait.
Never ever ask eX-men this question.
Stuttering mouse cursors.
Works in my machine
Absolutely nothing stopping Wayland implementations from fixing this. Typical eX-man cope.
Alright well call me 13 years later when it's still not fixed.
>wayland can fix it!
>doesn't ever fix it
LOL
You fix it. Where is your patch? Fix X11 too while you're at it. You do contribute code to both of these projects, right? You're not just a useless shitposter, right?
>You fix it.
hahahaha nope. you want me to fix something i don't use and never will use? pfffffffffffffftttttHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA
>you want me to fix something i don't use and never will use?
Yes. That's what you do when you're an employed programmer. You fix things for other people.
I guarantee if we implemented a policy on IQfy of "he who found it fixes it" everyone would shut the frick up instantly. Useless, the lot of you.
>please contribute to my failed garbage alpha project that is a complete joke in the software community
KEK
You're so oblivious you don't realize the reason it's a complete joke is entirely because people like you refuse to contribute or fix anything. It's *your* fault it's a garbage alpha project. You made this mess, now you get to clean it up.
use xorg, cya
Which lines of Xorg did you contribute?
>please dox yourself
hahahahaha this shit is gold
Coward, you laugh at yourself.
>you're a coward for not doxing yourself
keep it coming, this shit is hilarious.
What are you afraid of? Be honest.
>you won't contribute to a project i have no idea how to contribute to and i'm too stupid to learn it and can't even program so i'm going to say you're afraid of wasting your own time in a desperate attempt at reverse psychology
holy KEK
Teach me. A 200000 IQ genius like you should be able to teach this in 5 minutes or less.
>spoon feed me, i'm a moron
nope
So you do not want more people contributing and fixing bugs? Typical Xorg shill.
are you fricking dense? i already told you i'm not contributing to your gay shit project, you fricking moronic homosexual
>i'm not contributing to your gay shit project
Now Xorg is the gay shit project? You ok man?
>are you fricking dense
>you fricking moronic homosexual
I heard better insults on the schoolyard when I was 7 years old. Get some new material.
When you're an employed programmer, you fix things for other people who pay you for it. You don't just go around offering your services for free.
Next time, if you don't want to be exposed as a NEET, don't talk about something you clearly have no direct experience with (e.g. employment).
The state of the FOSS community
>please fix my software because im too stupid to
lmao
Yes, the lack of support for hardware cursors and focusing on making every frame perfect makes this problem fundamentally unfixable.
unless they just fixed them. Which would be easy. You skitzo.
It's important to support wayland though. X is a dead end. Wayland is the future.
Wayland is the past by now. It wasn't exactly started yesterday.
Yesterday is also in the past. The only future desktop linux has is under wayland.
>use novidya card
>launch games
>black screen
goyvideo cucks BTFO
If you have to ask, X11. Wayland likes to pretend really hard that it works, but it doesn't. You still get mouse stutters in compositors, a problem that grahpical OSes had solved for decades.
Use what works. Wayland cause an issue for a program you wanna use? Use Xorg. Not the case? Use Wayland.
Xorg is a joke pushed by contrarian trannies on IQfy.
Nobody is pushing X.org. And nobody denies that X11 is flawed.
The crux of the matter is that Wayland is just as bad and in some ways even worse than the very thing it intends to replace.
>Even if they are somehow sandboxed by SELinux
Lies.
https://docs.huihoo.com/selinux/x11/t1.html
Yeah not reading your obscure 50 page Xorg configuration manua and gamble my display going blankl, I'll just stick to wayland.
Can you get what Qubes does on other distros?
you mean running applications in VMs without graphics acceleration?
well qemu/kvm are a thing
>without graphics acceleration?
Nevermind then
Alright, I've been using Wayland for a few hours now. So far I don't see much of a difference at all. Drag and drop works for the programs where I use it, screen sharing works, and my games even work. But if they're running at less than my monitor's resolution they don't go full screen - how do I fix this? The only real flaw I've noticed so far is that it does have some mouse lag sometimes.
Everyday with this shit. I'm glad I use Windows, I'd rather suffer the botnet than this.
That's just moronic.
Yikes
>I care about security
>that's why I use alpha software like GAYland
not ganna make it, homosexual moron
>I care about security
>that's why I use 40 year old software with glaring documented security holes
>I'm not convinced, so ill ask why
>yet i've already made up my mind and here's a moronic irrelevant insult from someone who is a fricking moron and isn't a developer and knows nothing about xorg and hasn't contributed a single commit, and instead ill use this alpha garbage software that doesn't work
hahahah gayland homosexuals are the fricking stupidest on the board. the only more annoying IQfy users are nixpedos
gayland
gayland
Wayland is better because it's not a hack of a 40 year old piece of software meant for room sized Unix Workstations that weren't connected to the internet.
Xorg just werks.
>Xorg just werks.
*tears*
*fails to support mixed DPI*
*logs your keys*
Hmm wayland is not a hack and yet it ended up having less features and being worse somehow.
kek just installed plasma-wayland-session and switched over to see how it works, because i wanted to try waydroid.
didn't carry over my DPI, everything super tiny. well, that's ok, no need to expect it would read from X. i'll just turn it up.
well wait, my touchpad isn't clicking for some reason. oh, no, that's just how it is. no option for tap to click, it's simply not there. have to physically click the little left-click button on the touchpad. cool.. i guess there's probably some special wayland touchpad driver that gives you common options i'll look into later.
set the scaling up to 250% to match X. mouse cursor turns fricking giant - taskbar blows up, way more than 250% of its previously tiny size, taking up 1/5th of the screen. ok ... i'll shrink the taskbar down. time on the taskbar gets blurry as i turn it down. task manager icons still vertically stacked for some reason despite not having the space to.
everything is fuzzy, font is hard to read. i figure maybe a logging out and back in is warranted... no change. turn mouse cursor size down.. ignored. ok.
firefox toolbars are giant, font is tiny. ok ... nah nevermind frick waydroid i'll use anbox.
i'd have taken screenshots but spectacle didn't work either kek.
Tap to click should be enablable, but because of the geniuses who designed Wayland's absurd minimalism there's no desktop environment agnostic way to configure (or for that matter load) your drivers, and Libinput is still far behind Synaptics in terms of configurability.
fantastic. so.. it's useless. neato
To be fair, Plasma is trash regardless of display server protocol.
X11 was created 38 years ago and nobody has ever abused the "security" issues in all those years. Wayland tries to fix a problem that nobody has had. Anyways x11 fixed this 20 years ago with XACE which is mandatory access control for x11, which even wayland to this day doesn't have. You can easily prevent global screenshot/keybinds on x11, but nobody does it because it's never a problem in real life.
On anything other than KDE and Gnome, use X.
Otherwise Wayland is fine.
Will Wayland ever stop having the most disgusting input lag to exist? Its so bad, it even ruins basic desktop usage.
Using desktops is insecure.
wait but I thought the input lag would be less due to the "performance oriented fresh design"??
Wayland Black folk spent a decade working on this dumb shit and it's still unusable.
>forced vsync & mandatory compositing
HAHAHAHAHAHA
Works for Mac OS, Windows, Android and iOS for decades now.
You know what also works for Mac OS and Windows?
Letting applications see all input, because that's most straightforward way to have a usable desktop.
Surely you wouldn't go against their decision, right? After all, if Windows does it, it must be good.
>Letting applications see all input, because that's most straightforward way to have a usable desktop.
nothing to do with wayland. When listening for all input on Mac and Windows you do so via system level APIs, not the desktop environment.
How they do it is irrelevant. The point is that they can.
>forced vsync & mandatory compositing
HAHAHAHAHAHA
*AHEM*
Multi display freesync.
Wayland achieves security by offloading all of the actual display functions to the compositor. Now instead of one attack vector managed by a team you have 30 different attack vectors managed any pajeet moron who puts up a WM project on github.
Wayland had me at the "every frame needs to be perfect" mantra but lost me when fricking tooltips weren't allowed to move away from the parent window. Security is like a whatever to me.
*every frame needs to be delayed
no, it's a consequence of compositing everything. so, it's by design, and there is no escape.
hmm I just read on the Vsync issue, so VSync is always on with wayland so to speak. Well that sucks but if I understand it correctly it should be possible to have an extension to disable that for fullscreen video games?
also why can't we just copy the rendering model of windows/mac?
Vsync is not always on in Wayland. Wayland is a protocol and says nothing about vsync.
>it's a consequence of compositing everything
Incorrect. Compositing does not require vsync.
gayland has already proven to be malware over and over. why do we keep having this thread? who keeps creating over and over and why? are they really this desperate to have other people use software that they want them to use?
wayland is a dumpster fire its broken and somehow slower than xorg