one of the oldest migratory branches of the Indo-Europeans, with one of the oldest Indo-European languages of the PIE branch, but basically they have less or the same steppe ancestry as the Greeks?
how did this happen?
What the frick happened to the Hittites?
Hittites are just Hattics who were indoctrinated to speak Anatolian
None of those things are true and you don't know what these graphs mean
Nice lucky trips.
I don't either.
Please explain it to me what the frick do those ethnicity graphs mean, if you can even. I've looked at many of them because of the brown underage shitposters of this board and I still don't understand their meaning.
So tell me, mr intelligent
which samples of the Hittites group them with at least 20% steppe ancestry?
the graph was a comparison.
>the graph was a comparison.
The graph is a crayon drawing for morons
Real ones have an axis marked so you know what you're looking at and refer to sources
Go post on one of the moron boards you are boring
as I thought;
you didn't argue anything
shut up and get off topic.
it's an order
Very recent study found some central asian neolithic fellas carried volga-don eneolithic Ancestry. This dna was also found in anatolians from the copper/bronze age.
Possible proxy
Neolithic or Chalcolithic?
From a chronological point of view, the Yamnaya supposedly colonized Anatolia in the Bronze Age.
even taking into account that it was one of the oldest branches.
but maybe they already moved before? but I don't think it's more than 4000 years old.
Do you have a link to this study? I wonder how much steppe ancestry would be
They carry 8-10% middle don ancestry (khvalynsk like related dna). And they are from circa 4000 BC.
Very good source, this turkmen neolithic dna is found in anatolians at some 25% rates. Would make a excellent proxy for a very diluted source of IE ancestry
Very good proxy
This is interesting, but it seems to make the issue of the anatolic branch more complex.
but I already understood that from the beginning his steppe ancestry was already very diluted.
Maybe it really was an elite who imposed the language for political reasons
I wonder if Khvalynsk is very different from Yamnaya?
I (personally) think it was more like a bunch of gypsies that fell on the place travelling by caravan and overgrew via cultural diffusions, and one group of them lucked out a powerful kangdom
Well, who knows?
I still hope that the issue of the anatholic branch, especially from a chronological point of view, will be further clarified.
It's so complicated that it gives rise to moronic theories like "Anatolia patria" or that shitty article that came out last year about the Indo-European being almost 9000 years old....
It has to be this way when small numbers of Yamnaya ancestors are completely changing the haplogroup map in Europe, when haplogroups like I2 are going extinct wherever steppe invaders go. Europe is very quickly majority in haplogroup R, but the opposite occurs in Anatolia and the Hittites are miraculously all J2. How did an elite group from the steppes, known for rape and genocide, end up not only failing to spread their haplogroup in a society they ruled, but also being deceived by the people they ruled
europe is not anatolia, europe is an extension of the great eurasian steppe, in the period yamnaya expanded they had carts previously unattested which represents a massive technnological shift allowing different migratory patterns, europe was already largely depopulated with sparse groups of agropastoral farmers whereas the middle east was a population neuralgic epicenter with millions of agriculturalists
literally irrelevant to my argument.
them having all this mobility, as you said, it was supposed to at least have more r1b samples....
You are moronic then. Every part of Europe was inhabited, but that didn't stop Yamnaya (or the corded ware) and their family from raping and genociding them.
>literally irrelevant to my argument.
No. Its very relevant. genetic impact of a group is clearly related to their ecologic and economic niche and their mobility.
The map of pre-migration era ydna and autosomal ancestry would go to show this. The areas of europe before germanic and slavic expansions with the lowest steppe DNA are coincidentially those that are not part of the european plain.
The areas behind mountain barriers show this to larger extents.
Yamnaya and corded ware also lived in the bronze age. Where different technology was used in the eurasian steppes. They used domestic horses, Carts, vehicles and caravans. So their mobility was radically different. Before that they would be very small groups of pastoralists moving on feet and ingressing a massive agricultural epicenter with millions, Not similar to a large group of 500 guys in carts raiding a tiny village with 200 inhabitants in france.
Besides we found r1b samples in the area. But they are not necessary. Among cernavoda which was 10-20% steppe only a handful carried r1b but were culturally steppe. If you extend this 2000 years living in a place with millions of j carriers....
Did these j guys just decided to give their women 3 different times to R1a and r1b bulls? Some sort of chastity cage sissyhypno fetishism?
Much emphasis is traditionally placed by some Indo-Europeans on just a few vocabulary terms, such as those for 'horse', 'wheel', chariot', 'wagon' etc., on the very reasonable basis that these features appear relatively late in the record archaeological. Since there are words for these things in the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European language, that language cannot (they argue) have been dispersed before the invention of, for example, the wheel. But these linguists sometimes use this method of linguistic paleontology in a very complicated way. Sometimes they fail to recognize that with the invention of a new concept (e.g. the wheel), the new noun that was invented for it in the then different early Indo-European languages was often derived from existing concepts (e.g. , 'turn' for Latin rota, and similarly for reconstructed Indo-European *kweklos, related to Greek kyklos, 'circle'). Circles and rotation have been known to humans for tens of thousands of years and cannot be used until Proto-Indo-European date
new analysis finds no Yamnaya ancestry among ancient Anatolians. The team suggests that they and the Yamnaya share common ancestors in a hunter-gatherer population in the highlands of eastern Anatolia, including the Caucasus Mountains. This area, they argue, is the most likely place for people to have spoken a language with Anatolian-Indo-European roots, perhaps between 5,000 and 7,000 years ago.
"Before that, it would be very small groups of herders moving on foot and entering a huge agricultural epicenter with millions of people. It's not similar to a large group of 500 men in carts attacking a small village of 200 inhabitants in France."
here we see that you are 100% moronic for several reasons
Pastoralism is almost as old as agriculture and there is even the possibility that pastoralism provides a link between Eurasian pastoral languages and Afro-Asiatic pastoral languages (the Nostratic hypothesis).
and in fact, Indo-Europeans only "attacked" villages with "wagons" in the region of France in 600 BC! idiotic logic, at that time the population was already bigger and not just "200 people".
and the Middle East wasn't even that populated either to the point of "millions", you idiot, millions had several medieval European countries together.
and do you realize that being small groups of herders, this doesn't give much basis to steppe theory?
>Pastoralism is almost as old as agriculture and there is even the possibility that pastoralism provides a link between Eurasian pastoral languages and Afro-Asiatic pastoral languages
You have heavy problems understanding terminologies, the emphasis is made on the absence of wagons in the chalcolitic. And wagons that essily passed by the european plain wont make it into the anatolian hills. Though 5 mountain barriers allowing a massive expansion.
Your argument is wrong from the start. And the newfound presence of eneolithic turlmen DNA carrying lower don dna already opens new pathways for a dispersal of IE Into anatolian completely destroying the previous babble.
Cool
no one talked about carts or what their origins were
I talked about something else
again, the wienersucker picking up loose ends of my arguments to "refute" me
But who talked about pastoralism being the reason steppe groups expanded? I told you the reason the genetic signal is heavy is because they expanded once they made effective use of wagons. And they did because they made use of the great european plain. A ecological accident.
Are you too stupid to get this?
The second point is that the middle east was in effect a massive population epicenter in the neolithic. Egypt, iran, anatolia, and certain regions like greece and the levant had massive relative populations specially for the time.
Which represent a much different target group for a expected change contrasted to the sparse population of shifting agriculturalosts with low population densiry and low population numbers in middle europe during the late neolothic.
They are inndifferent geographical areas. Represent different archeilogical periods, represent different economic and ecological niches. The paralellism is surreal.
No. Mongols expanding into iceland wouldnt be the same as mongols expanding into siberia. Do you need me to explain why?
I already answered this shit and you repeat the same arguments over and over again.
and the idiot still says obvious things that I didn't even deny
and "mass populations" is a false term for anything from the ancient world. I'm very sorry
Anatolia, for example, was not inhabited by thousands of people until the Middle Bronze Age.
Did you just copypasted a random hypothetical abstract? Lmao
Did you read what I said?
I didn't "copy", I used it to make it better to read, and not just spew relative shit like you
shut up you and your empty bullshit arguments. you moron.
we find steppe in Anatolia in the periods associated with IE speakers, it is a weak signal like everyone expected. however, there is no archaeological evidence of IS in Anatolia until this period.
literally none of the samples Lazaridis (your sex daddy)
used to draw any conclusions without steppe ancestry are associated with IE, it's like trying to measure the presence of gypsies in Finland
, odds are you won't find any AASI signs
"The genetic impact of a group is clearly related to its ecological and economic niche and its mobility."
wrong again.
very simplistic. tell me then;
What kind of economic and ecological niche could the Indo-Europeans have dominated in their empty and easy-to-conquer Europe? pastorarail? Indo-European angels already existed on the globe.
bronze? it was already done by the EEF
copper? the same thing.
wagons? already existed in Neolithic Europe
what exactly? Chariots only arrived in Western Europe around 600 BC.
and see the Aztecs;
They had none of their premises, just mobility, and they managed to change Mexico at a genetic level.
>ery simplistic. tell me then;
>What kind of economic and ecological niche could the Indo-Europeans have dominated in their empty and easy-to-conquer Europe?
The areas most densely conquered by indoeuropeans are those that represent an extension of the great european plain is this a real question? Yes. Agropastoralism was their economic niche.
When the steppe groups expanded they found a population that was going though a massive crisis due to climatic changes, internal conflict and mortality triggered by metal making and plagues.
Nomadic pastoralist whose economy is centered arround steppes dont have an easy time migrating into hilly and mountainous areas. Do you need me to explain you why with stickmans?
"Is this a real question? Yes. Agropastoralism was their economic niche"
no. was not.
firstly, it was not something new, therefore, it would not be something "revolutionary", especially considering that Indo-European societies quickly adopted their so-called agricultural and non-pastoral economic environment as their main
Do you realize that there was literally a pastoralist-agricultural society before them? how could this be a significant economic niche? as something that was not even used in the long term (in the narrow sense that you use it) it was a significant economic niche. find another way, love 🙂
and as I said; bronze, carts and domestication of animals (apart from the horse) are against his argument.
what was the economic niche that supports your moronic argument
>no. was not
Yes it was? They were nomadic agropastoralists. Do you know what these terms mean?
Agropastoral groups expand in the areas that allow them to compete and expand. You dont get agropastoralists in polynesia because its a different niche they cannot exploit. Do you know what any of these terms mean?
Human groups expand into the areas that allow their subsistance methods to prevail
Cultures centered arround farming or fishing will fail if you drop them in the middle of the sahara. Nomads like saharawis might survive
>Do you realize that there was literally a pastoralist-agricultural society before them? how could this be a significant economic niche?
Do you know what a fricking niche is like at all? A niche its a role a organism takes within a community or context. All niches are subject to competition for their dominance.
They expanded because they were heavily violent agropastoralists exploiting a nomadic lifestyle in a period of climatic irregularities and depopulation. Do you think mongols were the only agropastoralists in the medieval eurasian steppes?
You are genuinely stupid. I feel like im trying to teach down a toddler.
"When the steppe groups expanded, they found a population experiencing enormous crisis due to climate change, internal conflict and mortality triggered by metal production and pests."
climate change always happens. and at the time of the late Neolithic and early Bronze Age, it wasn't like there was a "devastating" climate change, don't use scarecrows. External conflicts are human and not as if the pastors were super united and without that, therefore, delayed argument, "high mortality" due to metal production? It's funny that this didn't happen in southern Europe, right? where in the Neolithic was where the highest concentration of metals existed. the north has always been low in population. (where this theory ignores)
"Nomadic pastoralists whose economy is centered on the steppes do not have an easy time migrating to mountainous and mountainous areas. You need me to explain why stickman"
ok... the sky is also blue, isn't it? this literally supports my argument.
Genetic overlap and geography make Indo-European migrations unreliable. and northern Europe (Norway) with its 50% steppe ancestry? oops, try again
I'm going to sleep you broken-in.
you lost
>climate change always happens
Yesand when you have a group of people pushing within that period of vulnerability its very likely your population will be subject to threats.
And yes, during the alte neolithic entire population centers of middle europe evidence heavy depopulation credited to high levels of armed conflicts within farmer societies associated with metal production.
Btw
>Researchers discover 4,900-year-old strain of bacterium in Neolithic burial pit. Europe's first farming populations were wiped out by plague, say researchers who have identified genomes of a 4,900-year-old strain of the plague-causing bacterium Yersinia pestis from a Neolithic burial site in Sweden.Dec 6, 2018
4900 years old is 2900 BC. The era when stepe pastoralists expanded into europe.
What do you think will happen if your population is going through a plague when raiders in horseback arrive?
In the late neolithic the "neolithic decline"occured
>The Neolithic decline was a rapid collapse in populations between 5000 and 6000 years ago (approximately 3000 BC) during the Neolithic period in western Eurasia. The specific causes of that broad population decline are still debated.[1] While heavily populated settlements were regularly created, abandoned, and resettled during the Neolithic, after around 5400 years ago, a great number of those settlements were permanently abandoned.[1] The population decline is associated with worsening agricultural conditions and a decrease in cereal production.[2] Other suggested causes include the emergence of communicable diseases spread from animals living in close quarters with humans.[1]
Its not casual this is the period when the steppe pastoralists started expanding.
Norwegians are continental migrants from denmark that moved into depopulated areas and founded a new population.
thanks for the texts
But I'm not going to read it.
I have to go to work, I'm going to sleep
Again;
I will sleep, mr obvious
Your reading comprehension and/or logical thinking is garbage, stop trying to communicate with humans you dumb ape.
The point is, if Anatolian languages spread through elite rule, I would still expect to see at least a transient pulse of admixture and some samples with about 10% steppe
How much mongolian dna do you think you could find in a random group of 300 azeri peasants?
moronic comparison, I must say.
I literally said the word *elite* in my comment.
I think the date for the breakup of unified Proto-Anatolian is generally ~ Chalcolithic, and we have some samples from the Anatolian Chalcolithic. Maybe they just haven't found the right ones yet
?
chalcolitic anaotlians already carry this lower don admixed ancestry, if it came this way, the proxy is there already,
Target: Turkey_C
Distance: 2.1246% / 0.02124605
60.6 Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
17.0 Turkmenistan_C_Parkhai
15.8 Georgia_Kotias.SG
6.6 Israel_PPNB
Target: Turkey_C
Distance: 2.2771% / 0.02277136
58.2 Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
17.2 Turkmenistan_C_Namazga.SG
16.2 Georgia_Kotias.SG
8.4 Israel_PPNB
Target: Turkey_C
Distance: 2.2425% / 0.02242541
59.2 Turkey_Barcin_LN.SG
16.6 Turkmenistan_C_Geoksyur
16.2 Georgia_Kotias.SG
8.0 Israel_PPNB
Oh nononono
source?
Are you moronic? Your graph shows, if anything, that Anatolians and Cypriots are descended from Hittites. Which is like, duh.
who is moronic? Me or you?
What Anatolian? the Greeks or the Hattics? being any of them, but I will use the example of the Anatolian Greeks, they were already mongrels and the Greeks themselves had no more than 15% steppe ancestry.
and the Cypriots... do I really need to say anything? Come on genius.
I know you can be better than this
read my statement;
the amount of steppe ancestry.
I don't care who is descended from them or not, but simply the reason for their quantity of steppe.
It seems like you're the one who's moronic at the end
>What Anatolian? the Greeks or the Hattics?
What do you think Greek_Central_Anatolia and Greek_Cappadocia means? They're basically hellenized "Hattics", people who have lived for millennia in the heartlands of the Hittite empire, with maybe some contributions from mainland Greeks and Armenians and whoever else was in the neighborhood back in the Byzantine era.
>I will use the example of the Anatolian Greeks, they were already mongrels and the Greeks themselves had no more than 15% steppe ancestry.
And you're asking what happened? The early Indo-European ancestors of the Greeks were just as old and "migratory" as those of the Hittites, and by the time that lineage settled down as Mycenaeans and co they only had a small portion of steppe ancestry. The same thing happened to the ancestors of the Hittites who settled down in the EEF's Anatolian homeland, the tip of Fertile Crescent, places that had significant cities since the bloody Neolithic. They kept their IE language and (I presume) much of their culture but how would they preserve their genetics? The same thing happened to the Turks thousands of years later in Persia and Anatolia, or the Aryans in India.
Your entire way of thinking is delusional and plagued by fantasies, that's why you think there's anything to be confused about.
It's past two lines, I'm not going to read it.
you were the moron here and didn't know how to interpret me
Here's a short reply then: go back to Twitter, mouthbreather.
hittites were not culturally Indo-European, you cum drinker
Hattian, non-Hittite samples
If the steppe hypothesis were even slightly true, shouldn't all Hittites be J2? The Steppeshits raped all Europeans, but suddenly became cuckolds in Anatolia, allowing J2 men to frick their wives? We should believe this to make Davidski feel better
If the Southern Arc is correct, shouldn't Europeans be J2?
Well, The estimated time for this pulse is 2,000 years before the Hittites appeared in the archaeological record proper, it would be almost impossible to detect it, even more so if it were the byproduct of a very mixed culture like the Cernavoda, as is suspected.
Sooooo :/
Weirder to think is that they became cucks thrice otherwiss, once for r1b-Z2103, another time for R1B-269, and a third time for r1a. Not as much as to think something similar to turkics (but even less. Because it would be small population units like irish travellers, not even hordes) happened, and you will have 90% non-turkic fellows talking mongolian, but now pressume its a mixed source, and its only 20% turkic. 98% non turkic fellas speaking mongolian
Yes, I would also expect some preservation of the original Y-DNA lineages.
It doesn't necessarily have to be that way. It is an indisputable fact that they spoke IE. Why did they do this?
Shut up guys, please?
useless argument.
However, none of them have evidence of being IE archaeologically let alone genetically... not even yamnaya were their supposed colonists, but some pre-yamanaya shit, even uglier.
3000 years from now, you think it's reasonable to open a book and read;
"Iberian peoples" and in it show Mexicans, Brazilians, Colombians and other "humans"? just because they speak an Iberian language?
Nobody suspects this. Also, the 2000 years before the Hittites is the Indo-Anatolian argument for the origin of the Southern Arc. It's just people who believe in the steppe like you have BTFO again and have to adopt another Indo-Anatolian point after your original arguments failed again.
What we do know is that 2 different groups of already confirmed IE speakers carried different divergent branches of R1b but no J, are you implying that somehow the wired software got R1b-L51 and R1a and kept speaking IE and the same thing happened with r1b-Z2103 yamnaya which has zero you do not overlap the CWC?
You need some mental gymnastics to assume that J was tricked in this way, not once, but twice
In the scientific chart, the method that requires the least assumptions is usually the one that must be true. Lazaridis had to assume that three times his Pontic Greek sissy ancestors were tricked by R into promoting his fringe theory
You're Turkish, aren't you?
Yes, but no steppe in Anatolia would be an adequate falsification of the steppe hypothesis. If you don't accept any falsification criteria, it's not a scientific hypothesis.
Anatolian home= fake.
would not be*
sorry
>how did this happen?
Slaves, anon. Like sardinians.
Anatolian IE probably descended from the Caucasian Yamnaya culture, they initially had a very high CHG and a relatively low EHG.