Already been debooonked no evidence they were j2 take your meds
>IJ
Like the difference matters. Its unfortunate J became associated with arab basaloids but you shouldnt let this cloud your view of J which is ultimately a proto-WHG lineage that got into the Caucasus and Iran when IJK diversified as it went into Siberia.
Pretty quickly. Orderic Vitalis was born less than a decade after the Conquest and saw himself as English and couldn't speak French until he was sent to a monastery in France as a teenager.
They became partly English within just a generation or two and were fully absorbed into the English nation in an ethnic sense by the fourteenth century. Anyone telling you the HYW was a French civil war is a moron.
It started off as a dynastic war between French-speaking royals and nobility in England against French-speaking royals and nobility based in France. Edward III had a legit blood claim to the throne of France since his mother was the daughter of the late king, but obviously France didn't want to have him as their king so they chose the Valois to replace the Capetians since they were closest in male descent.
When Henry V restarted the HYW, that was when you could truly say it was English because he and his nobles spoke and write English as their first language (even patronizing English literature) despite coveting the rich French lands.
But despite being able to speak French, many English nobles had a sense of Englishness and a sort of proto-English pride, almost like a kind of civ nat thing, from the start of the HYW. Edward III also knew English. English had begun supplanting French by the start of the war.
Yeah Englishness was creeping up more and more after Normandy was lost. During Henry III's reign, the nobility hated foreigners i.e. new arrivals from France who didn't speak English like Eleanor of Provence's entourage.
But even as late as the 15th century when the final decades of the HYW were in swing, there were still nobles of England that took pains to promote French culture and language in universities because it was seen as posh. Identity was a bit complex from 1066 to 1453 because so long as there were French landholdings that the Kings and nobility of England had, you had this duality.
They were still speaking French at court and fighting for their French domains and/or attempting to seize the French throne in the 1300s
I don't think you can say they were fully English until their interests on the Continent were fully resolved
at that point the normans had already dispersed across the british empire.
the fall of the empire coincides with the watering out/disappearance of a unified norman aristocracy.
what is your interpretation of "fully resolved" I might wonder
1 month ago
Anonymous
I wrote it the frick down down puddingbrains
By the end of the 100 years war they didn't have any claims on the continent anymore
None of that makes what you wrote less than gun-in-the-mouth moronic
Just speaking French alone isn’t enough. It really turned when English was their first language, which I believe was by Edward III although Edward III himself was not there yet (Henry V being the first king to speak English natively I believe). Nonetheless, clear lines of frenchness and Englishness were drawn by the Hundred Years’ War. They aristocracy fighting that war did not see themselves as French. French was the lingua franca for a long time. Tsar Alexander speaking very good French, as the language of diplomacy, in 1809 didn’t make him French.
Edward III had the Statute of Pleading since most of the population couldn't understand French, thus they could speak English in courts. That was a step in the right direction though it was Richard III who had all the laws in English than Latin.
By that point they weren't Norman though, they were French speaking Englanders. The French themselves recognized this development, they didn't want Edward III on the throne and did the Salic Law asspull just to keep his grubby English hands off of it and passed it onto the Valois instead.
Note that they didn't even rule Normandy anymore by the 1300s.
Most of the families of Norman earls and dukes who had been given land and property in 1066 had largely assimilated into England by 1154 and regarded themselves as English first and Demi Anglo-Normans whose ties to Normandy and Norman culture had become tenuous.
Having claims is not the same as being what you claim, otherwise the German Kings were Italian and Polish. English interest in the continent would never end, but that doesn’t make them French because of it
>They were still speaking French at court and fighting for their French domains and/or attempting to seize the French throne in the 1300s
irrelevant, really
I've read extensively into this. Some anons will say it was within decades after Hastings when you had personages of mixed Anglo-Norman heritage (Norman fathers of course, English mothers) like Orderic Vitalis, William of Malmesbury, and Henry of Huntingdon who wrote in the 12th centuries that re-assessed English identity and culture long after the Bastard had died and a unique Anglo-Norman culture developed.
Others will say it wasn't until the advent of the Hundred Years' War when nationalism was utilized as a weapon to rally Parliament and the English masses to support (i.e. taxes and manpower) Edward III's war for his expansion into France.
The real answer is in-between those periods. I'd argue that it was definitely in the 13th century after Normandy was irrevocably lost to Philip II and the Anglo-Norman barons and knights had to come to grips that they lost their ancestral lands.
The process of Anglicization for the Normans, Bretons, Flemings, and Frenchmen from other regions was a slow and gradual process. The first years of William the Conqueror's reign was marked by brutality and arrogance; the Harrying of the North is the best example of this. It wasn't until 1100 when William's son Henry Beauclerc took the throne and married Mathilda, niece of Edgar Atheling (thus she was a descendant of the House of Wessex) that the English people started to feel some pride. And the Battle of Tinchebray in September 1106, almost 40 years after the Battle of Hastings where English troops helped Henry defeat his brother Robert Curthose, thus the "English" conquest of Normandy was cemented. Englishmen felt some vindication for their forefathers' when they won the field.
The exchange also went both ways. While the sons and grandsons of William's companions adapted to English fashion like longer hair, having mustaches, and conversing in Old (and later Middle) English, the English readily took to Norman (as well as French, German, other continental European) names.
Meanwhile Domesday Book records show that there are English names in the rosters as milites or knights so actual Anglo-Saxon warriors adapted to Norman warfare and chivalry in the post-1066 order. While the bulk of Englishmen would primarily serve as infantry in Norman and Plantagenet armies, many serjeants and non-noble cavalrymen descended from legit Anglos without a Norman lineage. The English warrior class that didn't flee into exile (Scotland, Ireland, Scandinavia, Flanders, Byzantium) resigned themselves to the new order and needed to serve a liege as hearth troops. So they attached themselves to their Norman overlords because they needed pay and purpose.
No greater synthesis of English and Norman customs is greater than architecture. The Normans brought their stonemasons and imported Caen stone to build their magnificent castles and churches; but the interior decorations were distinctly English. And the English learned from their Norman teachers while incorporating their own tastes in wood-carving, painting, ornament design, etc. that a truly Anglo-Norman style was born.
And a real shift to how the court viewed the Anglo-Saxon past was when Henry III named his 2 sons as Edward and Edmund; names which would've been unthinkable from 1066 to King John's death in 1216. Longshanks was the 1st post-Conquest king of England to have an Anglo name (after the Confessor) and could speak fluent Middle English (people always cite Henry Bolingbroke for speaking English in court).
By 1337 when the Hundred Years' War broke out, the nobility of England may have still spoken French since it was indeed the language of the court, but their memory and roots have long cemented in England so much that it became a "We" vs "Them" attitude towards their Gaulish cousins. The Presentment of Englishry was abolished by 1340 because it was impossible to distinguish who was genuinely Norman and genuinely English to instill the murdrum fine anymore.
Meanwhile Domesday Book records show that there are English names in the rosters as milites or knights so actual Anglo-Saxon warriors adapted to Norman warfare and chivalry in the post-1066 order. While the bulk of Englishmen would primarily serve as infantry in Norman and Plantagenet armies, many serjeants and non-noble cavalrymen descended from legit Anglos without a Norman lineage. The English warrior class that didn't flee into exile (Scotland, Ireland, Scandinavia, Flanders, Byzantium) resigned themselves to the new order and needed to serve a liege as hearth troops. So they attached themselves to their Norman overlords because they needed pay and purpose.
No greater synthesis of English and Norman customs is greater than architecture. The Normans brought their stonemasons and imported Caen stone to build their magnificent castles and churches; but the interior decorations were distinctly English. And the English learned from their Norman teachers while incorporating their own tastes in wood-carving, painting, ornament design, etc. that a truly Anglo-Norman style was born.
And a real shift to how the court viewed the Anglo-Saxon past was when Henry III named his 2 sons as Edward and Edmund; names which would've been unthinkable from 1066 to King John's death in 1216. Longshanks was the 1st post-Conquest king of England to have an Anglo name (after the Confessor) and could speak fluent Middle English (people always cite Henry Bolingbroke for speaking English in court).
By 1337 when the Hundred Years' War broke out, the nobility of England may have still spoken French since it was indeed the language of the court, but their memory and roots have long cemented in England so much that it became a "We" vs "Them" attitude towards their Gaulish cousins. The Presentment of Englishry was abolished by 1340 because it was impossible to distinguish who was genuinely Norman and genuinely English to instill the murdrum fine anymore.
Very interesting posts. What book or books would you recommend someone read to get a full grasp on this topic?
NTA but read The English and the Norman Conquest by Ann Williams. A lot of what that anon said is in that book about how the lines were blurring between Norman and English after things settled and the 2 peoples lived side by side.
Wace was born in the 12th Century in Jersey, then raised in continental Normandy, an in his writings the demonym of choice is overwhelmingly 'Norman'. He also refers to himself as French and, on at least one occasion, English.
>J2 royalty
>English
Already been debooonked no evidence they were j2 take your meds
>single J2 individual within a christian movement
>LE NORDICS WERE SANDIES!!!
many such cases.
>IJ
Like the difference matters. Its unfortunate J became associated with arab basaloids but you shouldnt let this cloud your view of J which is ultimately a proto-WHG lineage that got into the Caucasus and Iran when IJK diversified as it went into Siberia.
Why did they become french beforehand?
John is normally given as a turning point in the development of the Anglo-Norman identity.
Pretty quickly. Orderic Vitalis was born less than a decade after the Conquest and saw himself as English and couldn't speak French until he was sent to a monastery in France as a teenager.
Henry IV. Not before
Pure cope.
>A Norman who speaks only English and considered himself to he English is a cope for when the Normans became English
>Henry IV
You don't know who Orderic Vitalis was, do you?
Orderic Vitalis was a peculiar case, given the fact his mother was English THOUGH
>Henry IV
what a stupid answer lol
>First monarch who spoke English as a native language
>"stupid answer"
'k
>Untrue statement and irrelevant to the OP
>"not stupid"
'k
They became partly English within just a generation or two and were fully absorbed into the English nation in an ethnic sense by the fourteenth century. Anyone telling you the HYW was a French civil war is a moron.
It started off as a dynastic war between French-speaking royals and nobility in England against French-speaking royals and nobility based in France. Edward III had a legit blood claim to the throne of France since his mother was the daughter of the late king, but obviously France didn't want to have him as their king so they chose the Valois to replace the Capetians since they were closest in male descent.
When Henry V restarted the HYW, that was when you could truly say it was English because he and his nobles spoke and write English as their first language (even patronizing English literature) despite coveting the rich French lands.
But despite being able to speak French, many English nobles had a sense of Englishness and a sort of proto-English pride, almost like a kind of civ nat thing, from the start of the HYW. Edward III also knew English. English had begun supplanting French by the start of the war.
Yeah Englishness was creeping up more and more after Normandy was lost. During Henry III's reign, the nobility hated foreigners i.e. new arrivals from France who didn't speak English like Eleanor of Provence's entourage.
But even as late as the 15th century when the final decades of the HYW were in swing, there were still nobles of England that took pains to promote French culture and language in universities because it was seen as posh. Identity was a bit complex from 1066 to 1453 because so long as there were French landholdings that the Kings and nobility of England had, you had this duality.
They were still speaking French at court and fighting for their French domains and/or attempting to seize the French throne in the 1300s
I don't think you can say they were fully English until their interests on the Continent were fully resolved
at that point the normans had already dispersed across the british empire.
the fall of the empire coincides with the watering out/disappearance of a unified norman aristocracy.
random string of words
yeah the British Empire during the Hundred Years' War
ok little guy
what is your interpretation of "fully resolved" I might wonder
I wrote it the frick down down puddingbrains
By the end of the 100 years war they didn't have any claims on the continent anymore
None of that makes what you wrote less than gun-in-the-mouth moronic
Just speaking French alone isn’t enough. It really turned when English was their first language, which I believe was by Edward III although Edward III himself was not there yet (Henry V being the first king to speak English natively I believe). Nonetheless, clear lines of frenchness and Englishness were drawn by the Hundred Years’ War. They aristocracy fighting that war did not see themselves as French. French was the lingua franca for a long time. Tsar Alexander speaking very good French, as the language of diplomacy, in 1809 didn’t make him French.
Edward III had the Statute of Pleading since most of the population couldn't understand French, thus they could speak English in courts. That was a step in the right direction though it was Richard III who had all the laws in English than Latin.
By that point they weren't Norman though, they were French speaking Englanders. The French themselves recognized this development, they didn't want Edward III on the throne and did the Salic Law asspull just to keep his grubby English hands off of it and passed it onto the Valois instead.
Note that they didn't even rule Normandy anymore by the 1300s.
Most of the families of Norman earls and dukes who had been given land and property in 1066 had largely assimilated into England by 1154 and regarded themselves as English first and Demi Anglo-Normans whose ties to Normandy and Norman culture had become tenuous.
Having claims is not the same as being what you claim, otherwise the German Kings were Italian and Polish. English interest in the continent would never end, but that doesn’t make them French because of it
>They were still speaking French at court and fighting for their French domains and/or attempting to seize the French throne in the 1300s
irrelevant, really
I've read extensively into this. Some anons will say it was within decades after Hastings when you had personages of mixed Anglo-Norman heritage (Norman fathers of course, English mothers) like Orderic Vitalis, William of Malmesbury, and Henry of Huntingdon who wrote in the 12th centuries that re-assessed English identity and culture long after the Bastard had died and a unique Anglo-Norman culture developed.
Others will say it wasn't until the advent of the Hundred Years' War when nationalism was utilized as a weapon to rally Parliament and the English masses to support (i.e. taxes and manpower) Edward III's war for his expansion into France.
The real answer is in-between those periods. I'd argue that it was definitely in the 13th century after Normandy was irrevocably lost to Philip II and the Anglo-Norman barons and knights had to come to grips that they lost their ancestral lands.
The process of Anglicization for the Normans, Bretons, Flemings, and Frenchmen from other regions was a slow and gradual process. The first years of William the Conqueror's reign was marked by brutality and arrogance; the Harrying of the North is the best example of this. It wasn't until 1100 when William's son Henry Beauclerc took the throne and married Mathilda, niece of Edgar Atheling (thus she was a descendant of the House of Wessex) that the English people started to feel some pride. And the Battle of Tinchebray in September 1106, almost 40 years after the Battle of Hastings where English troops helped Henry defeat his brother Robert Curthose, thus the "English" conquest of Normandy was cemented. Englishmen felt some vindication for their forefathers' when they won the field.
The exchange also went both ways. While the sons and grandsons of William's companions adapted to English fashion like longer hair, having mustaches, and conversing in Old (and later Middle) English, the English readily took to Norman (as well as French, German, other continental European) names.
Continued:
Meanwhile Domesday Book records show that there are English names in the rosters as milites or knights so actual Anglo-Saxon warriors adapted to Norman warfare and chivalry in the post-1066 order. While the bulk of Englishmen would primarily serve as infantry in Norman and Plantagenet armies, many serjeants and non-noble cavalrymen descended from legit Anglos without a Norman lineage. The English warrior class that didn't flee into exile (Scotland, Ireland, Scandinavia, Flanders, Byzantium) resigned themselves to the new order and needed to serve a liege as hearth troops. So they attached themselves to their Norman overlords because they needed pay and purpose.
No greater synthesis of English and Norman customs is greater than architecture. The Normans brought their stonemasons and imported Caen stone to build their magnificent castles and churches; but the interior decorations were distinctly English. And the English learned from their Norman teachers while incorporating their own tastes in wood-carving, painting, ornament design, etc. that a truly Anglo-Norman style was born.
And a real shift to how the court viewed the Anglo-Saxon past was when Henry III named his 2 sons as Edward and Edmund; names which would've been unthinkable from 1066 to King John's death in 1216. Longshanks was the 1st post-Conquest king of England to have an Anglo name (after the Confessor) and could speak fluent Middle English (people always cite Henry Bolingbroke for speaking English in court).
By 1337 when the Hundred Years' War broke out, the nobility of England may have still spoken French since it was indeed the language of the court, but their memory and roots have long cemented in England so much that it became a "We" vs "Them" attitude towards their Gaulish cousins. The Presentment of Englishry was abolished by 1340 because it was impossible to distinguish who was genuinely Norman and genuinely English to instill the murdrum fine anymore.
that's enough autism and copy-pasting out of you today thanks
Very interesting posts. What book or books would you recommend someone read to get a full grasp on this topic?
NTA but read The English and the Norman Conquest by Ann Williams. A lot of what that anon said is in that book about how the lines were blurring between Norman and English after things settled and the 2 peoples lived side by side.
>TRAN
Wace was born in the 12th Century in Jersey, then raised in continental Normandy, an in his writings the demonym of choice is overwhelmingly 'Norman'. He also refers to himself as French and, on at least one occasion, English.