The Aeneid appeared to me tighter in terms of composition and more beautiful in terms of language. Books 2 and 6 are also incredibly impactful emotionally, on par with Priam's meeting with Achilles and Odysseus' homecoming.
One must also remember that Vergilius was just as talented of a poet as Homer was, while simultaneously having the leisure (he worked on it for 10+ years) to slowly perfect each line of the poem. Assuming that the oral composition theory is correct Homer essentially had to both compose and memorise the entire thing (hence the repetitive epithets) without having access to the written record of it. Which is of course incredibly impressive in its own right, but authors who can write down and revisit their thoughts have an inherent advantage.
The Aeneid appeared to me tighter in terms of composition and more beautiful in terms of language. Books 2 and 6 are also incredibly impactful emotionally, on par with Priam's meeting with Achilles and Odysseus' homecoming.
One must also remember that Vergilius was just as talented of a poet as Homer was, while simultaneously having the leisure (he worked on it for 10+ years) to slowly perfect each line of the poem. Assuming that the oral composition theory is correct Homer essentially had to both compose and memorise the entire thing (hence the repetitive epithets) without having access to the written record of it. Which is of course incredibly impressive in its own right, but authors who can write down and revisit their thoughts have an inherent advantage.
Brainlet opinion on the Aeneid. Jesus Christ even the author knew that wasn't the fricking case
Nah, I sort of agree with him. For top verse I would rank things:
Divine Comedy
Aeneid
Odyssey
Iliad
This is excluding the Bible. Biblical verse is more uneven — much of it likely has a composite composition process — but its heights are truly the highest. The word play is also fascinating, and unfortunately very little of it can come through in translation.
I prefer the Iliad in many respects but it is not as solid as a composition.
If you overlook the entertainment motive, dominant in the Iliad, and treat Homer as a Virgil, Dante, or Milton, rather than as a Shakespeare or Cervantes, you are doing him a great disservice. The Iliad, Don Quixote and Shakespeare's later plays are life—tragedy salted with humour; the Aeneid, the Inferno and Paradise Lost are literary works of almost superhuman eloquence, written for fame not profit, and seldom read except as a solemn intellectual task.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Anon, all works of literature are designed to entertain on some level. Every author you listed was composing to entertain and inspire. Even Plato is writing to entertain on some level as in many of his discourses he includes jokes and ironic word play. And it's ironic you wouldn't place Paradise Lost in the same breath as the Iliad considering Milton more or less copies the entire structure of the Iliad for his Paradise Lost. You can't read Milton without being reminded of Homer, and you can't read Homer without being reminded of Milton.
Virgil's Aeneid is a great work, but neither it nor Homer's are 'better' than the other. Once you break a certain threshold of artistry you simply prefer one over the other. I may prefer Homer's fire, virility and passion over Virgil's grace and serenity, but we fall into a great error to say one is inherently superior over the other. Both a geniuses of the highest order and should be equally enjoyed for their unique merits.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
NTA, but the Aeneid was by far the bigger influence on Paradise Lost than the Iliad, down to Milton rewriting PL to also contain 12 books. >Virgil's Aeneid is a great work, but neither it nor Homer's are 'better' than the other. Once you break a certain threshold of artistry you simply prefer one over the other. I may prefer Homer's fire, virility and passion over Virgil's grace and serenity, but we fall into a great error to say one is inherently superior over the other. Both a geniuses of the highest order and should be equally enjoyed for their unique merits.
This we can be both agree on.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I think both the Iliad and Aeneid were equally important influences to Paradise Lost, and he honors both works in different ways. Most scholars seem to agree as much. To my eyes and interpretation, his style is far more similar to Homer's than to Virgil's, especially as it relates to matters of sublimity and the abstract. That's just my take, though. Depends on which translation of Homer you're reading as well, though Milton knew Greek and Latin fluently and no doubt read both Homer and Virgil in their original languages, something I'll never be able to do, short of a miracle (I can barely master English).
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
And yet, since Peisistratus turned the Iliad into a sacrosanct epic for political reasons, it is that solemn atmosphere that has prevailed. These authors set themselves to exalt their gods and praise their rulers, and did not need to think in terms of popular entertainment. Where Milton wrote with posterity in mind, Homer had to earn his slices of roast mutton and cup of honey-sweet wine. He (they?) earned their livelihood by providing good popular entertainment.
You illustrate it well enough in your final word. Homer is what I would call a true poet, Virgil was merely a remarkable verse-craftsman.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>since Peisistratus turned the Iliad into a sacrosanct epic for political reasons, it is that solemn atmosphere that has prevailed
I don't understand what you're saying. Solemn in what way? The Iliad is several things but it is rarely what I would call solemn in the literal sense. Based on your posting pattern, I think you are also the anon who has said Homer's treatment of the gods is 'pure comedy' which is another absurd statement.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
And yet, since Peisistratus turned the Iliad into a sacrosanct epic for political reasons, it is that solemn atmosphere that has prevailed. These authors set themselves to exalt their gods and praise their rulers, and did not need to think in terms of popular entertainment. Where Milton wrote with posterity in mind, Homer had to earn his slices of roast mutton and cup of honey-sweet wine. He (they?) earned their livelihood by providing good popular entertainment.
You illustrate it well enough in your final word. Homer is what I would call a true poet, Virgil was merely a remarkable verse-craftsman.
Solid and substantive points overall. Homer is of course more *important* but I do think he is also greater full stop - the point about entertainment vs. eloquence is almost but not quite correct, because the truly salient difference is one of humanity vs. artificiality. Dante falls very much on the human side of this divide, but other than that I'd say anon's sorting of authors was correct. Using a similar structure has nothing to do with this distinction, that should be fairly obvious.
I disagree with anon and Dr. Johnson about someone like Milton being "work" to read though, beauty is always a pleasure first and foremost. It just doesn't quite fill the soul the way a truly inspired work does.
https://i.imgur.com/hjNNo4J.jpg
The more I think about it, the harder it is to choose. The Iliad is the easy choice because its perfection is so directly embodied in its main story beats, but the Odyssey has so many wonderful touches too.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Something to that. A higher morality than the current is entailed on all poets: the morality of love. Without love he cannot be a poet in the final sense. Shakespeare sinned greatly against current morality, but he loved greatly. Milton's sins were petty by comparison, but his lack of love, for all his rhetorical championship of love against lust, makes him detestable.
The effect of Paradise Lost on sensitive readers is, of course, over-powering. But is the function of poetry to overpower? To be over-powered is to accept spiritual defeat. Shakespeare never overpowers: he raises up.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
You've tipped your hand, Mr. Graves; don't you have an SLAA meeting to get to?
I suppose I should know well enough to be suspicious whenever I see articulate and knowledgeable discussion on IQfy. You've got a weird pastime, but probably considerably less weird than the Quixotic quest to carve out something real on here.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
dammit
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Now that I think about it, it's probably a huge net positive for the quality of the board. Carry on, I won't out you, mum's the word.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
you know this means we're in league now
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Yes, it's rather titillating. I'll do my best not to giggle when I run into you.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Eyes is one of my favourite films ... how much do you know !?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Never seen it tbqh, when I was really into film Kubrick wasn't quite soulful enough to interest me. I just thought the imagery was appropriate.
I do probably know your top 10 though since the thread from which I recognized you was a favorites thread. Don't worry though, I am merely a harmless and good-natured autist, I will not use my power for evil.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I remember
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Almost a year ago now - ah, what young fools we were...
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
but you recognised that turn of phrase ... that's funny. capt. graves cut to the quick
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
What can I say, I'm not one to accept spiritual defeat.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
well well well.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
*over-powers you*
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
We forget cruelty and past betrayal,
Heedless of where the next bright bolt may fall
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
We can debate his worth as novelist, poet, critic, or scholar, but the fact remains, and will no doubt be acknowledged in hushed tones of awe for ages to come, that my man was a TRUE devotee of the cause.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>Milton lacks love
In what way? His stories overflow with it, and several aspects of love. Paradise Lost and Regained are all about God's overwhelming love of and for humanity. Did you not read them?
>Overpower
Define what you mean by "overpower". I'd argue Shakespeare has several moments which are overpowering in the same way Milton and Homer are.
Both are great, but different. The Iliad is founded more on action and struggle, rapid transitions, and moments of true sublimity. In the Odyssey, Homer takes the more relaxed, narrative style.
Either way, an English speaker should be reading Cowpers translations of the Iliad exclusively. It is the closest an English speaker can get to reading Homer in the original Greek.
>Dante chose Virgil as his guide for a reason.
pretty sure though I might be wrong they didn't even have access yet to the original Iliad and Odyssey in Greek, they only had abridged Latin versions
I prefer the Iliad. Though I think the Aeneid is superior to both of them.
Please expand. I haven't read the Aeneid yet.
The Aeneid appeared to me tighter in terms of composition and more beautiful in terms of language. Books 2 and 6 are also incredibly impactful emotionally, on par with Priam's meeting with Achilles and Odysseus' homecoming.
One must also remember that Vergilius was just as talented of a poet as Homer was, while simultaneously having the leisure (he worked on it for 10+ years) to slowly perfect each line of the poem. Assuming that the oral composition theory is correct Homer essentially had to both compose and memorise the entire thing (hence the repetitive epithets) without having access to the written record of it. Which is of course incredibly impressive in its own right, but authors who can write down and revisit their thoughts have an inherent advantage.
Homer had composed the story with a group of people.
The Odyssey, IMO
Source: came up in a dream of some 19th century German
Brainlet opinion on the Aeneid. Jesus Christ even the author knew that wasn't the fricking case
Few, if any anons here know what they're talking about when it comes to works of antiquity. Just forgive their ignorance and ignore them.
Just hurts my soul man. You spend a decade learning Greek and Latin just to constantly be disappointed online lol.
Please enlighten us
I consider myself an anon who doesn't know shit about Antiquity.
Nah, I sort of agree with him. For top verse I would rank things:
Divine Comedy
Aeneid
Odyssey
Iliad
This is excluding the Bible. Biblical verse is more uneven — much of it likely has a composite composition process — but its heights are truly the highest. The word play is also fascinating, and unfortunately very little of it can come through in translation.
I prefer the Iliad in many respects but it is not as solid as a composition.
Plato's dialogues, particularly the Phaedrus, are the best literary accomplishments of the Greeks.
St. Augustine has the best literary achievements of the Romans (particularly Confessions).
They get pigeonholed into "philosophy," but are actually the best artistic works too.
Less controversially, Augustine is by far away the best Roman philosopher.
If you overlook the entertainment motive, dominant in the Iliad, and treat Homer as a Virgil, Dante, or Milton, rather than as a Shakespeare or Cervantes, you are doing him a great disservice. The Iliad, Don Quixote and Shakespeare's later plays are life—tragedy salted with humour; the Aeneid, the Inferno and Paradise Lost are literary works of almost superhuman eloquence, written for fame not profit, and seldom read except as a solemn intellectual task.
Anon, all works of literature are designed to entertain on some level. Every author you listed was composing to entertain and inspire. Even Plato is writing to entertain on some level as in many of his discourses he includes jokes and ironic word play. And it's ironic you wouldn't place Paradise Lost in the same breath as the Iliad considering Milton more or less copies the entire structure of the Iliad for his Paradise Lost. You can't read Milton without being reminded of Homer, and you can't read Homer without being reminded of Milton.
Virgil's Aeneid is a great work, but neither it nor Homer's are 'better' than the other. Once you break a certain threshold of artistry you simply prefer one over the other. I may prefer Homer's fire, virility and passion over Virgil's grace and serenity, but we fall into a great error to say one is inherently superior over the other. Both a geniuses of the highest order and should be equally enjoyed for their unique merits.
NTA, but the Aeneid was by far the bigger influence on Paradise Lost than the Iliad, down to Milton rewriting PL to also contain 12 books.
>Virgil's Aeneid is a great work, but neither it nor Homer's are 'better' than the other. Once you break a certain threshold of artistry you simply prefer one over the other. I may prefer Homer's fire, virility and passion over Virgil's grace and serenity, but we fall into a great error to say one is inherently superior over the other. Both a geniuses of the highest order and should be equally enjoyed for their unique merits.
This we can be both agree on.
I think both the Iliad and Aeneid were equally important influences to Paradise Lost, and he honors both works in different ways. Most scholars seem to agree as much. To my eyes and interpretation, his style is far more similar to Homer's than to Virgil's, especially as it relates to matters of sublimity and the abstract. That's just my take, though. Depends on which translation of Homer you're reading as well, though Milton knew Greek and Latin fluently and no doubt read both Homer and Virgil in their original languages, something I'll never be able to do, short of a miracle (I can barely master English).
And yet, since Peisistratus turned the Iliad into a sacrosanct epic for political reasons, it is that solemn atmosphere that has prevailed. These authors set themselves to exalt their gods and praise their rulers, and did not need to think in terms of popular entertainment. Where Milton wrote with posterity in mind, Homer had to earn his slices of roast mutton and cup of honey-sweet wine. He (they?) earned their livelihood by providing good popular entertainment.
You illustrate it well enough in your final word. Homer is what I would call a true poet, Virgil was merely a remarkable verse-craftsman.
>since Peisistratus turned the Iliad into a sacrosanct epic for political reasons, it is that solemn atmosphere that has prevailed
I don't understand what you're saying. Solemn in what way? The Iliad is several things but it is rarely what I would call solemn in the literal sense. Based on your posting pattern, I think you are also the anon who has said Homer's treatment of the gods is 'pure comedy' which is another absurd statement.
Solid and substantive points overall. Homer is of course more *important* but I do think he is also greater full stop - the point about entertainment vs. eloquence is almost but not quite correct, because the truly salient difference is one of humanity vs. artificiality. Dante falls very much on the human side of this divide, but other than that I'd say anon's sorting of authors was correct. Using a similar structure has nothing to do with this distinction, that should be fairly obvious.
I disagree with anon and Dr. Johnson about someone like Milton being "work" to read though, beauty is always a pleasure first and foremost. It just doesn't quite fill the soul the way a truly inspired work does.
The more I think about it, the harder it is to choose. The Iliad is the easy choice because its perfection is so directly embodied in its main story beats, but the Odyssey has so many wonderful touches too.
Something to that. A higher morality than the current is entailed on all poets: the morality of love. Without love he cannot be a poet in the final sense. Shakespeare sinned greatly against current morality, but he loved greatly. Milton's sins were petty by comparison, but his lack of love, for all his rhetorical championship of love against lust, makes him detestable.
The effect of Paradise Lost on sensitive readers is, of course, over-powering. But is the function of poetry to overpower? To be over-powered is to accept spiritual defeat. Shakespeare never overpowers: he raises up.
You've tipped your hand, Mr. Graves; don't you have an SLAA meeting to get to?
I suppose I should know well enough to be suspicious whenever I see articulate and knowledgeable discussion on IQfy. You've got a weird pastime, but probably considerably less weird than the Quixotic quest to carve out something real on here.
dammit
Now that I think about it, it's probably a huge net positive for the quality of the board. Carry on, I won't out you, mum's the word.
you know this means we're in league now
Yes, it's rather titillating. I'll do my best not to giggle when I run into you.
Eyes is one of my favourite films ... how much do you know !?
Never seen it tbqh, when I was really into film Kubrick wasn't quite soulful enough to interest me. I just thought the imagery was appropriate.
I do probably know your top 10 though since the thread from which I recognized you was a favorites thread. Don't worry though, I am merely a harmless and good-natured autist, I will not use my power for evil.
I remember
Almost a year ago now - ah, what young fools we were...
but you recognised that turn of phrase ... that's funny. capt. graves cut to the quick
What can I say, I'm not one to accept spiritual defeat.
well well well.
*over-powers you*
We forget cruelty and past betrayal,
Heedless of where the next bright bolt may fall
We can debate his worth as novelist, poet, critic, or scholar, but the fact remains, and will no doubt be acknowledged in hushed tones of awe for ages to come, that my man was a TRUE devotee of the cause.
>Milton lacks love
In what way? His stories overflow with it, and several aspects of love. Paradise Lost and Regained are all about God's overwhelming love of and for humanity. Did you not read them?
>Overpower
Define what you mean by "overpower". I'd argue Shakespeare has several moments which are overpowering in the same way Milton and Homer are.
The shattered Iliad makes a masterpiece, while the Odyssey by its ease and interest remains the oldest book worth reading for its story.
outrageous!
Both are great, but different. The Iliad is founded more on action and struggle, rapid transitions, and moments of true sublimity. In the Odyssey, Homer takes the more relaxed, narrative style.
Either way, an English speaker should be reading Cowpers translations of the Iliad exclusively. It is the closest an English speaker can get to reading Homer in the original Greek.
Odyssey
The Iliad, but I want Athena One-chan to take care of me like she did for Telemachus in the Odyssey
The Odyssey by a long shot.
Ἰλιάς > Ὀδύσσεια > Aeneis
Theyre the same thing
The Aeneid is great and I'm tired of pretending otherwise.
Dante chose Virgil as his guide for a reason.
>Dante chose Virgil as his guide for a reason
Because he couldn't read Greek?
>Dante chose Virgil as his guide for a reason.
pretty sure though I might be wrong they didn't even have access yet to the original Iliad and Odyssey in Greek, they only had abridged Latin versions
Step aside, plebs
Read and appreciate both instead of posting on IQfy