Not all that much, since Homer doesn’t record the death of Achilles and does record the death of lots of other heroes who don’t have that kind of introspection.
He does record it thougheverbeit. Any future occurrence is immediately explained early on. There are no spoilers in the Iliad since the narrator spoils everything at the beginning - Ilium falling, Achilles dying, Patroclus dying
2 months ago
Anonymous
I mean, yeah, if you count the way Xanthus reminds Achilles of his foretold death or some of the other prophecies. But I meant record in the sense of actually depicting a death scene. But I should have been more precise with my phrasing, mea culpa.
Agamemnon, Odysseus, Ajax, Hector. Also he's barely a character but the name Astyanax is fricking cool.
Going through another Homeric Epic phase right now. Today in the library I found both epics in text form instead of verse, so they're like novels instead of poems. Had no idea this version existed. Seems a lot smoother and more pleasant to read.
I do really like that Hector, despite being arguably the antagonist (if you discount the gods), is given a very noble and honorable spirit, and is overall a fricking bro. This fact makes it obvious the epics are historically inspired and not strict propaganda pieces.
Anyways its Diomedes.
>despite being arguably the antagonist (if you discount the gods),
The poem is pretty up front in the introduction that the story is one of a conflict between Achilles and Agamemnon. The war is just a backdrop, and Hektor is most important as a kind of surrogate-Achilles that Achilles has to destroy to reclaim his identity after withdrawing from the battle. It is not an accident that when they fight, Hektor is wearing Achilles's armor.
The story is about Achilles’ relationship with Priam in the very last book. As you said, Hector dies wearing Achilles’ armor. After that, Priam comes to reclaim his son’s body which Achilles has humiliated in death by desecrating and dragging around the walls of fair Ilion. The story is about Achilles coming to realize that the men he killed in war are the same people as he is to his own mother Thetis and as Patroclus was to him. Achilles getting over his hatred of Hector and allowing Priam to bring back his dead son is what the poem is about.
Achilles and Agamemnon are as much of a “backdrop” as the war is.
>The story is about Achilles’ relationship with Priam in the very last book
I would argue that this is more a showcasing of how Achilles has changed, how he's willing to abide by conventional behavior even when he doesn't want to and in a way that he wouldn't have earlier in the poem. Again, I think it's very deliberate that Priam uses just about the worst argument he could have; asking how his father would feel if Achilles died in a faraway land and didn't have a body to bury. Achilles knows he's fated to die in the Trojan War. Peleus knows this too. They've already counted that cost and paid it. The Achilles from the start of the epic would have laughed in Priam's face and probably murdered him too. But it's the conflict with Agamemnon and him losing that conflict that pushes him into the guy who would eventually swallow his pride and give Hektor's body back.
>The story is about Achilles coming to realize that the men he killed in war are the same people as he is to his own mother Thetis and as Patroclus was to him.
I very much disagree with that interpretation. I would point to lines 550-575in book 24, where Achilles is still very much trying to hold his wrath in check and is openly subordinating himself to divine authority and custom to not attack Priam; he is not exactly brimming with empathy here.
>Achilles and Agamemnon are as much of a “backdrop” as the war is.
Not really. Homer invokes the muse to sing about the wrath of Achilles and the strife with the son of Atreus. Troy isn't mentioned there.
Why does everyone forget that Hector tried to behead Patroclus’ body and he also attempted to hide from Achilles? Athena had to trick him into fighting Achilles through subterfuge.
Because they think it's some sort of power-rangers tier fightfic about how the main champions of each side narratively circle each other before having an EPIC clash where only one walks away. That's also why they forget the parts about Hektor fighting Diomedes and Ajax in two separate occasions and not being able to beat either; it undercuts the big fight with Achilles if you realize that the poem has been setting up for a while that the guy does not stand a chance.
It’s Achilles. Only one who shows actual character growth.
>show character growth
>die
What did Homer mean by this?
Not all that much, since Homer doesn’t record the death of Achilles and does record the death of lots of other heroes who don’t have that kind of introspection.
He does record it thougheverbeit. Any future occurrence is immediately explained early on. There are no spoilers in the Iliad since the narrator spoils everything at the beginning - Ilium falling, Achilles dying, Patroclus dying
I mean, yeah, if you count the way Xanthus reminds Achilles of his foretold death or some of the other prophecies. But I meant record in the sense of actually depicting a death scene. But I should have been more precise with my phrasing, mea culpa.
have you read the Iliad, Anon?
was diomedes a wrestler like ajax or just another military pansy?
I IDENTIFY WITH «HEKTOR».
Is that why you run away from threads whenever you’re confronted with someone who knows their shit?
Agamemnon the Tard-Wrangler
But it’s Agamemnon’s tardism that kicks off the entire plot.
Agamemnon doesn't get enough love imo. Book 11 was one of my favorite parts as a boy.
Agamemnon, Odysseus, Ajax, Hector. Also he's barely a character but the name Astyanax is fricking cool.
Going through another Homeric Epic phase right now. Today in the library I found both epics in text form instead of verse, so they're like novels instead of poems. Had no idea this version existed. Seems a lot smoother and more pleasant to read.
Odysseus and Diomedes.
Hector. He was just fighting for his homeland, his wife and son.
Achilles is the worst character
your choice?
Hera ofc
I do really like that Hector, despite being arguably the antagonist (if you discount the gods), is given a very noble and honorable spirit, and is overall a fricking bro. This fact makes it obvious the epics are historically inspired and not strict propaganda pieces.
Anyways its Diomedes.
Same + Ajax
>despite being arguably the antagonist (if you discount the gods),
The poem is pretty up front in the introduction that the story is one of a conflict between Achilles and Agamemnon. The war is just a backdrop, and Hektor is most important as a kind of surrogate-Achilles that Achilles has to destroy to reclaim his identity after withdrawing from the battle. It is not an accident that when they fight, Hektor is wearing Achilles's armor.
The story is about Achilles’ relationship with Priam in the very last book. As you said, Hector dies wearing Achilles’ armor. After that, Priam comes to reclaim his son’s body which Achilles has humiliated in death by desecrating and dragging around the walls of fair Ilion. The story is about Achilles coming to realize that the men he killed in war are the same people as he is to his own mother Thetis and as Patroclus was to him. Achilles getting over his hatred of Hector and allowing Priam to bring back his dead son is what the poem is about.
Achilles and Agamemnon are as much of a “backdrop” as the war is.
>The story is about Achilles’ relationship with Priam in the very last book
I would argue that this is more a showcasing of how Achilles has changed, how he's willing to abide by conventional behavior even when he doesn't want to and in a way that he wouldn't have earlier in the poem. Again, I think it's very deliberate that Priam uses just about the worst argument he could have; asking how his father would feel if Achilles died in a faraway land and didn't have a body to bury. Achilles knows he's fated to die in the Trojan War. Peleus knows this too. They've already counted that cost and paid it. The Achilles from the start of the epic would have laughed in Priam's face and probably murdered him too. But it's the conflict with Agamemnon and him losing that conflict that pushes him into the guy who would eventually swallow his pride and give Hektor's body back.
>The story is about Achilles coming to realize that the men he killed in war are the same people as he is to his own mother Thetis and as Patroclus was to him.
I very much disagree with that interpretation. I would point to lines 550-575in book 24, where Achilles is still very much trying to hold his wrath in check and is openly subordinating himself to divine authority and custom to not attack Priam; he is not exactly brimming with empathy here.
>Achilles and Agamemnon are as much of a “backdrop” as the war is.
Not really. Homer invokes the muse to sing about the wrath of Achilles and the strife with the son of Atreus. Troy isn't mentioned there.
Why does everyone forget that Hector tried to behead Patroclus’ body and he also attempted to hide from Achilles? Athena had to trick him into fighting Achilles through subterfuge.
Because they think it's some sort of power-rangers tier fightfic about how the main champions of each side narratively circle each other before having an EPIC clash where only one walks away. That's also why they forget the parts about Hektor fighting Diomedes and Ajax in two separate occasions and not being able to beat either; it undercuts the big fight with Achilles if you realize that the poem has been setting up for a while that the guy does not stand a chance.
Aeneas
Ajax Telamon is the only right answer