>I don't pay 930493903490309 for healthcare
Ah you're still a child and mommy government wipes your ass. Once you get a job you will see how much money you lose to socialist ponzi schemes.
Ah yes, wish we could grow up and be like the United States where we get bankrupted if we are stupid enough to get cancer
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Honestly, as a European, I think that's a better idea than paying 50% income tax + 20-25% VAT.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Why don't americans go to spain to get treated for cancer?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I know you are pretending to be moronic, as a europoor you already know how much money you spend for eldercare, healthcare and general political thievery. There is simply no way you are unaware of this. Nearly 100€ get deducted from my fricking paycheck every month.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
America: >work or starve >get in debt or cure cancer
Communism: >work and still starve >die of cancer waiting for treatment >thank you so much government for helping le people!!11!
>I don't pay 930493903490309 for healthcare
Yes, you do, except the government takes it out of your salary before you could even get it, and you don't get a choice.
The efficiency of money spent is higher. People still pay, but the cost to each person is arguably less. America has an issue of corporate circle jerking when it comes to pricing treatments. The hospitals know that insurance is willing to pay out a lot more than the cost of acquisition and labour for medical treatment and supplies, so they charged a bit more than is necessary. Medical suppliers realised this, and figured they could charge more. The hospital doesn’t mind, it gives them justification to charge even more for treatment and skim more off the top. Insurance companies are presumably fine with this because they can keep increasing rates to the highest feasible, so the medical system in the US seems to have optimised to balance leaching as much money as is feasible possible from people, without causing enough damage by bankrupting them to get any meaningful regulation. I also think that in some ways, the US is effectively subsidising healthcare for the rest of the world by nature of paying so fricking much for healthcare.
In countries where the government acts as an effective insurer for most basic healthcare, they also typically have a monopoly on said insurance, and typically a focus on good medical results over profits (this isn’t always the case though, some are just as bad). This means they can stonewall pharma companies like Pfizer et al for access to their market until they get a good deal. Even in countries where the government isn’t the sole provider of health insurance, their presence drives down prices for private insurers to an extent.
Dumb predditard rat can't quote a real figure because he has no idea how much it actually costs, because mommy and daddy pay for his healthcare while he sits in a basement browsing reddit
>I don't die in a school shooting and
somehow we still do, just a lot less >I don't pay 930493903490309 for healthcare
we also do but aren't told about it
>communism >low cost of living
lol I am in Croatia and this is pure capitalism
Workers have 0 rights and your not getting decent healthcare if your not moderately rich
Btw living costs arent low. Rents are about 600 euros while most paychecks are below 1000
>Rents are about 600 euros
ko rentira gajbu u exyu je teška majmunčina i treba se obesiti odmah >while most paychecks are below 1000
a nije osam "tisuća" eura?
>I don't die in a school shooting
I dunno about that senpai, last school shooting was just a few weeks ago here in Fingolstan.
It could be thought of that way. From what my employer pays me, following taxes are paid: >pension: 24% >income tax: 28% >municipal taxes: ~10%
After which I need to pay VAT of 25,5% on everything I buy.
>last school shooting was just a few weeks ago here in Fingolstan.
what the frick? first time?
The UK is the worst of both worlds because it has a high cost of living like the US but pitiful salaries like the rest of Europe.
It makes you wonder why the GBP exchange rate is still relatively favourable when it is worth absolutely frick all domestically.
It's full of British people though so if you're a British descendant and your country is being flooded with Indians it might be nice to move there.... Oh.
Cheapest decent rental in Westminster (where the Treasury is) is like 2300 gbp a month.
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/147554876#/?channel=RES_LET
>communism >low cost of living
lol I am in Croatia and this is pure capitalism
Workers have 0 rights and your not getting decent healthcare if your not moderately rich
Btw living costs arent low. Rents are about 600 euros while most paychecks are below 1000
>what is cost of living >what do you mean european countries' cost of living is lower than the US, where NYC, DC, LA, SF, and Miami have undo influence on national cost of living?
>cost of living is high because a single paycheck is a bit higher than my monthly rent
Oh to have lived in a time where that were a reasonable complaint.
That's the norm in capital cities, you're expected to live with a partner or with roommates. Or have very good jobs.
Just the rent in Amsterdam is more than the median salary.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Lie, you are left with 1000e+ after rent with median salary.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Dont you get gommie rent control in places like Amsterdam THVGH?
>Heh come to Belgrade
do not come. do not come. >lowest rent available + bills (no food included) is more than the median salary
if you are renting and not living in an inherited block shithole from (insert family member) you are doing it wrong and deserve to eat shit and die
>Rents are about 600 euros while most paychec
oh, disi buraz... da za kurac je, plus, uz sve sto je toliko za kurac i realnu nezaposlentost 20% uvoeze tamo nekakve indijce, crnce.
strasno, sva sreca pa sam developer i ne utjece na moju placu
From my experience talking to Americans their cost of living is much higher than what we have here in the UK, and ours is quite high compared to Europe. Must be an anglo thing to take the piss out of your customers.
Those huge american tech salaries are only possible due to investment capital flowing into the tech sector. It's not a coincidence that tech companies started downsizing once the fed rate hike hit and the interest-free money stream dried up.
Europe doesn't have a competitive tech sector and noone invests in it, therefor there isn't alot of money to go around.
Furthermore the HM Treasury posting is a public servant role and those always tend to pay worse than the private sector. Not to mention that wages are determined by decades old contracts that aren't up to speed with current job market demands.
Because in Europe they care more about legal departments, business and what not rather than about developers. It shows. EU countries have not just fallen behind US on software but are painfully falling behind BRICS countries (China, Russia and upcoming India kek).
Euro tech is proper cooked. For more than a decade European masters have decided that programming is monkey work fit for Lebensraum untermenschen and have outsourced almost tech to Eastern Europe, and everyone in the West is a makework analyst with zero technical background (though somehow there are armies of them).
Most West Euro companies dev workforces consist of majority East Europeans ( Poles, Ukrainians and Russians ) where West Euro salaries still spend well.
They got majorly buttfricked by Mr. Putin's military adventurism where it became untenable to employ Russians and Ukrainians. They migrated their devs out of these countries by the tens of thousands and still experienced a crazy loss of workforce.
West Euros sucked at tech anyways because the salaries were low, and even if they weren't, its customary to tax high paid people to death. And even if you make 100k Euro/yr yo are still one of the working poor in places like Bavaria and can't hold a candle to the asset-owning wealth class.
Anyone who had a shred of talent and ambition has already left for the US.
i wish this was true but really its more like, the euro might take thursday and friday off for a 4 day weekend, and then maybe one proper week long holiday a year. the rest of the vacation days will get sprinkled around for personal errands and stuff.
vacation days start at 25-30 in germany, grow to over 40 with seniority
Up to you how to spend them, but theres also many more public holidays and people like to fill the gaps left over when those fall on a tuesday or thursday
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Is €90k gross bad for Germany?
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
No, thats pretty decent for an IC in germany outside of the 5 biggest cities
Thats 61k net after taxes and health insurance if youre married only breadwinner,
thats just over 6 years of net salary for one of these fully furnished middle class houses if outside the city
The reason it's bad is because the UK and Germany has a lot of skilled, capable workers but no mega corps or IT manufacturing. Anytime the UK or Germany produces a decent software company it gets bought up by a bigger company from another country. So you have a lot of skilled IT workers at small/middling companies, it's an EU wide problem, how do you compete with essentially a handful of US monopolies?
Investments are hindered by bureaucracy and companies still place a lot more value on being some middle-manager than being a great dev
Now theyre trying to play catch-up by hiring consultants and outsourcing to jeet farms
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
>700k for 160m2
LMAO
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
thats the building, not the property's size
developers usually include a few larger, stand-alone homes, those come at a premium
or pay half the price for only 20% less
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
The house I grew up in was from 1964 and had 250m2. It sold for 230k euro. It shared one side with the neighbor but you couldn't hear them. Forest everywhere, peace and quiet. When it rained everything smelled of wet forest, ity was a residential neighbourhood. and the street was almost a dead end.
Anything less than that deserves to be worth less easily.
I couldn't buy it because living in it alone would just make me depressed.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
The reason it's bad is because the UK and Germany has a lot of skilled, capable workers but no mega corps or IT manufacturing. Anytime the UK or Germany produces a decent software company it gets bought up by a bigger company from another country. So you have a lot of skilled IT workers at small/middling companies, it's an EU wide problem, how do you compete with essentially a handful of US monopolies?
>European company customer service >HELLO TO YOU GOOD SIR I AM PAJEET FROM <COMPANY> HOW MAY I HELP YOU? >American company customer service >HELLO TO YOU GOOD SIR I AM PAJEET FROM <COMPANY> HOW MAY I HELP YOU?
>overvalued in the US
programmers have been devalued enormously in the US over the past 20 years due to a flood of degree mill H1B jeets stealing american jobs. the average programmer salary is like 70k here, which is the same as its been since the 1990s when my mother was a programmer, except you don't even get benefits today and you're more likely to have to work as a contractor than an actual full time employee in many places.
for reference it's like 55-60k in most of europe and the cost of living there is lower than where you'd make 70k in the US.
Those huge american tech salaries are only possible due to investment capital flowing into the tech sector. It's not a coincidence that tech companies started downsizing once the fed rate hike hit and the interest-free money stream dried up.
Europe doesn't have a competitive tech sector and noone invests in it, therefor there isn't alot of money to go around.
Furthermore the HM Treasury posting is a public servant role and those always tend to pay worse than the private sector. Not to mention that wages are determined by decades old contracts that aren't up to speed with current job market demands.
> Not to mention that wages are determined by decades old contracts that aren't up to speed with current job market demands.
In Britain public sector tends to pay better than private. Only hedgefunds and the like would pay more. The problem with UK in particular is that you have a HR company called Hays. Almost every big company turns to Hays who ranks employees on certain scales and hierarchy. It always makes managers of any kind earn more than established professionals because of ''responsibility''. This of course is utter bullshit since it ignores supply & demand and the fact that a dev often just gets the responsibility of a manager anyway since he the dev has full control over how the end product works.
The UK is the worst of both worlds because it has a high cost of living like the US but pitiful salaries like the rest of Europe.
It makes you wonder why the GBP exchange rate is still relatively favourable when it is worth absolutely frick all domestically.
No clue. Also it is overrun worse than US by third worlders. In UK these third worlders don't even need to work they get into social housing and maybe work 8-16 hrs a week for their uncle Achmed.
I think UK is currently not even on par with western European countries like Germany, Netherlands, Denmark etc. Your quality of living would be higher in upcoming and growing eastern European countries than current UK. It is amazing how one country collectively ignored calls to move more production in house, kick out third world boat migrants and retain its culture. It is almost comical how anti British UK politicians and those with capital are over there. They're letting it rapidly decline into Moldova level development and corruption.
>In Britain public sector tends to pay better than private.
Grim.
I extrapolated from my experience as a continental, here gov jobs are comfy but pay less.
>I think UK is currently not even on par with western European countries like Germany, Netherlands, Denmark etc. Your quality of living would be higher in upcoming and growing eastern European countries than current UK. It is amazing how one country collectively ignored calls to move more production in house, kick out third world boat migrants and retain its culture. It is almost comical how anti British UK politicians and those with capital are over there. They're letting it rapidly decline into Moldova level development and corruption.
There is nothing really you would miss in the UK versus Denmark or Eastern Europe. Quality of life is high.
It's not just tech, just about any job pays up to a figure more if you compare it to the US.
Making €90k as a lawyer in Germany is a big deal, in the US some make several times as much. Same with truckers who on average make up to mid-six-figures while in Europe they make mid five-figures at best. The only jobs that compare are the absolute bottom-level cleaning, clerk jobs like working at McDonald's but anything else, be it plumbers, lawyers or even fricking cops make a shit ton more in the US.
The US printed $7,000,000,000,000 over covid. It was the biggest theft of wealth in human history. The US printed as much as the rest of the world combined. Globally, $14,000,000,000,000 was printed. All of that money was stolen from everyone who needs liquid money while everyone with assets got significantly richer. Fiat currency is slavery.
I can't even Imagine what it was like living in the u.s during the 80s-2000s, Same salaries as today except less taxes and everything is 5x cheaper. Minimum wage would've probably been enough to live like a king in some places.
Because in Europe they care more about legal departments, business and what not rather than about developers. It shows. EU countries have not just fallen behind US on software but are painfully falling behind BRICS countries (China, Russia and upcoming India kek).
The American IT economy is different than basically the entire rest of the world's because of how much money is floating around in its financial system and how tech companies basically use places like Europe as their expense drain. Google might have staff in France but they file taxes in Ireland so every penny they can squeeze out of their French division goes to Ireland. Their American money ends up being spent on investing and deliberate overstaffing to poach workers.
>because of how much money is floating around in its financial system
Banks can create infinite money. It's all about what type of revenue you could bring in.
The IT market is different because the EU is an American colony and we are not allowed to be as good as the US. That's why we are "transitioning" away from nuclear power, why we have to buy LNG from the US, and why we have a shit IT sector. Also because of greedy employers paying shit wages even though IT personnel adds loads of productivity.
No Black person, you shut the frick up. You are like 80 levels below me.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Your whole post reek of Dunning Kruger and even your statement are incorrect (France building 12 new nuclear powerplant and most of Europe supporting for more nuclear power)
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Shut the frick up moron, we have literally destroyed our nuclear industry on purpose.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-14963575
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
Germany destroyed it on purpose. Most of Europe is investing after ecomoron finally got silenced.
>Banks can create infinite money
All money is debt. Anyone can create infinite amounts of debt if they're trusted enough. You can tell your friend you owe them one, you've created money. This is also why trust in bank's ability to pay the debt back is key to their success.
Because Europe lost WW2 and became an american colony. So the US has all the big techs that employ a ton of people, while europe is kept a client state that buys the products and services that the US builds. Europe is being banned from creating its own big techs, instead it has small companies, so jobs are scarce and low paid.
Labor compensation generally tracks with productivity. If you're creating more value per worker, you can afford to split some of that excess with your workers in order to grab employees from other firms with your higher compensation packages. This is a law of economics questioned about as little as evolution is in biology. The fact of the matter is that firms in the EU tend to be far less productive than those in the US for a variety of reasons. Over the pandemic, for example, EU average productivity (calculated as value added per worker) rose only 0.6%, where that of the US rose 5%. Idk why this is the case, but if you're looking for an answer to OP's question, this is probably it.
After starting my own company one thing is for sure; compensation has absolutely to do with your productivity. Sure it can define the lowest operating parameters if you suck at running a business and run at zero margin, but in reality people need to generate MORE than their worth to get hired, for people like me to skim the cream from the top.
Also bidding on jobs is completely. One time when I didn't want a job I bid something outlandinshly high, and we still ended up lowballing the next lowest bidder by 3/4th. We made a shitton of money from a basic CRUD webshite. Similar profit would have taken us months now took us weeks.
Explain how COLA adjustments exist for pay. Does living in an expensive area make you so much more productive that you need to be paid 30% more? Or are they just holding money from you when they think they can?
>Does living in an expensive area make you so much more productive that you need to be paid 30% more?
Yes, because the alternative would be 0 productivity since in that case there wouldn't be anyone to hire. Also, high paying jobs existing in a place drives the payment for other jobs in the same place up, because otherwise there would be no one to hire for those lower paying jobs as they'd all be trying to enter the higher payment market.
Absolutely not true when managers make more than developers and do absolutely frickall in every place I've worked at.
Quitting over moronic management has been my experience everywhere I go. I don't need someone who can barely open a PDF or make an excel sheet to tell me how the product needs to be made.
Switching companies, my productivity has not gone up (in fact many times down) yet I'm paid more.
Stop being a delusional moron. There is no meritocracy.
I'm a europoor but honestly making £60k while working remotely is comfy and gives you enough free time to do whatever you want, the money isn't that limiting at these rates unless you live in London
ofc you'd get more in the US but for a junior seniority it's not bad and I don't want to emigrate just for work
The picrel job is rather low for med seniority but government jobs don't pay well in general here so kind of expected
The other reply you mentioned was about 30k?
And yes you can earn 60k remotely I did straight out of uni, the listing was "hybrid" but not once in a years time was I actually asked to show up in the office.
I work elsewhere now but from what I've heard they still don't require anyone to actually come into their offices.
I had a mate make over 100k on a graduate job in a startup that wasn't remote and he had to work like 10h a day so you can make comparable amount to US, but mine was fully remote so I preferred it cause I'm lazy.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
If you work remote it doesn't matter what you earn. You could literally live in Blackpool or Hull for 25 grand a year lol.
thats a figure head position his purpose is to sit there look good and sign whatever the consulting bureau works out. Often they send a handpicked team of indians depending on crucial the project is there will be some head pajeet from the neocon/liberal chiefs from the beyond the pond in there as well.
Let's compare NY/SF to another EU top city, Amsterdam:
- college was free
- internship system worked really good, everybody in my class got at least one
- all the people in my age bracket pay 1500 in healtcare per year
- current salary pre bonus 240 000 €
- current salary with bonus 350 000€
- I pay 775 for a single room in a two people house, in the center
- just bought a house for 580 000, 98mq/1000sqft, 2km from the city center in the northern neighbour
- i pay around 49% taxes but cut a lot reinvesting in pension and stocks
- the lowest income person I know that works in tech makes 97 000€
- work from home is a right, everybody does it
- i clock 32 hours per week, 36 sometimes
- 32 days of vacations
- no need to own a car, biking everywhere and efficient public transport
- bike and transport paid by employer
- all the homeless are taken care by the government
- the sketchiest neighbour of town has 120 cases of (soft and hard) crime per year
not really, there are thousands of finance companies that need real tech, not JS framework du jour. I have a background in formal theory.
Started at 75k four years ago. They really do whatever they can to keep you. I renegotiated my salary twice already and forced their hands with offers from other company in the same space. But there are tons of startup that pay similar wages, even though they require some years of experience.
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
I frequently read the tweakers.net salary topic and a 350k salaried employee after bonus you rarely see. It's mostly Dutch guys working in the US who have that salary. Or expats that are flown in
2 weeks ago
Anonymous
because there are a lot of jobs that are tech related but don't classify as pure IT. As I told you, I am in finance. Tons of guys are in BioTech, Electronics of course banking and even farming and automation. Plus you have all the high paying tech companies such as Adien, Databricks (that easily pays >400k), Miro.
It doesn't matter in the end. No one in my circle of friends earn less than 70k, and >80k you can start planning a lot for your future between a mortgage (outside of Amsterdam maybe), stocks/indexes, pension funds and even some bank programs that track inflation. Honestly it's pretty comfy and you can see it in the people here.
Europe is dogshit, you only earn money here by being a doctor, lawyer or being some bureaucrat/politician do nothing sucking public money like a parasite. Everyone else gets bled dry by taxes and the state will swing down the full hammer of moronation of the 5 billion EU and local laws on the middle class exclusively. Business in the EU is painful and only for those with connections or giga corporations, starting up your own business is pure cancer.
very fine, there are frickton of swe, devops, IT or cybersec positions, if you can't find a job with a degree in CS then you're a fricking moron, HR or whatever else bullshit excuse have nothing to do with your failures.
there are so many defense companies or banks that you can always get a good bootstrap very early in your carrier.
spend some time at Thales writing some C++ for radars or some shit then all the linkedin stacies will suck your dick for an interview even if your school was mid.
The correct question would be why tech salaries are so high in the United States compared to the rest of the world.
Europe (+ Canada) pays a quite well to developers compared to the countries with similar GDP. The median total compensation for junior developers in Japan is like $25k (300 mil yen).
I work a public sector tech job in the EU. Get paid the equivalent of $75k. WFH with my boss not being allowed to tell me to come to the office. Spend at least half my day shitposting on the internet. Boss isn't allowed to reprimand me without asking my permission first or I escalate to HR. Firing me would require a year-long performance improvement plan to be put in place first, one that I'd have to consent to at every step otherwise I get to take my employer to court.
Cost of living is high, but not so high that I couldn't afford to buy a 97sqm 3 bed/2 bath house earlier this year.
>Why are tech salaries so low in EVERYWHERE compared to the United States?
Fixed it for you. Sadly the same no matter where you go. Some minor differences though where the salary is not that bad compared to the cost of living.
There are some good pockets of Europe with flat tax (low) rates and without communism but they'll still need another 10-15 years to get their economy going so until then it's a slow increase year to year. Really happy I moved away from the new communism bubble and can live in a white country again.
There are established power structures that are protected by the 'ruling class'. US has a much shorter history (so less of it) but the future of it will probably look similar.
Because the US is the world reserve currency and is at the top of a global pyramid scheme. The salaries are high because the US sets and artifically low interest rate and then export their inflation. The economic principle is known as the cantillon effect. It states that the people nearest to the money creation extract the value from it. US companies are only 2 steps removed from the money printing. It goes federal reserve>banks>US companies>US workers>other countries who have US bonds. The last people to get to spend money eat the inflation. This is the real answer.
amerikkka rich
yurop poor
^This but unironically.
there was no irony in there
aside from the natural irony of the world's greatest empires now being poorer than some shithole british colony
Europe is a communist country.
Because we don't slave ourselves to corporations like mutts do
I don't die in a school shooting and I don't pay 930493903490309 for healthcare
>I don't pay 930493903490309 for healthcare
Ah you're still a child and mommy government wipes your ass. Once you get a job you will see how much money you lose to socialist ponzi schemes.
Ah yes, wish we could grow up and be like the United States where we get bankrupted if we are stupid enough to get cancer
Honestly, as a European, I think that's a better idea than paying 50% income tax + 20-25% VAT.
Why don't americans go to spain to get treated for cancer?
I know you are pretending to be moronic, as a europoor you already know how much money you spend for eldercare, healthcare and general political thievery. There is simply no way you are unaware of this. Nearly 100€ get deducted from my fricking paycheck every month.
America:
>work or starve
>get in debt or cure cancer
Communism:
>work and still starve
>die of cancer waiting for treatment
>thank you so much government for helping le people!!11!
>I don't pay 930493903490309 for healthcare
Yes, you do, except the government takes it out of your salary before you could even get it, and you don't get a choice.
The efficiency of money spent is higher. People still pay, but the cost to each person is arguably less. America has an issue of corporate circle jerking when it comes to pricing treatments. The hospitals know that insurance is willing to pay out a lot more than the cost of acquisition and labour for medical treatment and supplies, so they charged a bit more than is necessary. Medical suppliers realised this, and figured they could charge more. The hospital doesn’t mind, it gives them justification to charge even more for treatment and skim more off the top. Insurance companies are presumably fine with this because they can keep increasing rates to the highest feasible, so the medical system in the US seems to have optimised to balance leaching as much money as is feasible possible from people, without causing enough damage by bankrupting them to get any meaningful regulation. I also think that in some ways, the US is effectively subsidising healthcare for the rest of the world by nature of paying so fricking much for healthcare.
In countries where the government acts as an effective insurer for most basic healthcare, they also typically have a monopoly on said insurance, and typically a focus on good medical results over profits (this isn’t always the case though, some are just as bad). This means they can stonewall pharma companies like Pfizer et al for access to their market until they get a good deal. Even in countries where the government isn’t the sole provider of health insurance, their presence drives down prices for private insurers to an extent.
Dumb predditard rat can't quote a real figure because he has no idea how much it actually costs, because mommy and daddy pay for his healthcare while he sits in a basement browsing reddit
>I don't die in a school shooting and
somehow we still do, just a lot less
>I don't pay 930493903490309 for healthcare
we also do but aren't told about it
>Rents are about 600 euros
ko rentira gajbu u exyu je teška majmunčina i treba se obesiti odmah
>while most paychecks are below 1000
a nije osam "tisuća" eura?
>last school shooting was just a few weeks ago here in Fingolstan.
what the frick? first time?
>I don't die in a school shooting
I dunno about that senpai, last school shooting was just a few weeks ago here in Fingolstan.
It could be thought of that way. From what my employer pays me, following taxes are paid:
>pension: 24%
>income tax: 28%
>municipal taxes: ~10%
After which I need to pay VAT of 25,5% on everything I buy.
>europe
>country
I hope this is bait.
We're getting 1 step closer every year.
redpilled individuals
The UK is the worst of both worlds because it has a high cost of living like the US but pitiful salaries like the rest of Europe.
It makes you wonder why the GBP exchange rate is still relatively favourable when it is worth absolutely frick all domestically.
It's full of British people though so if you're a British descendant and your country is being flooded with Indians it might be nice to move there.... Oh.
Cheapest decent rental in Westminster (where the Treasury is) is like 2300 gbp a month.
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/147554876#/?channel=RES_LET
Good Boy Points are deflationary. Cost of tendies keeps going up.
Communism.
Low cost of living.
Lack of industry and innovation.
>communism
>"if my hamburger goes up by 0.05 it's communism!"
sod off
>communism
>low cost of living
lol I am in Croatia and this is pure capitalism
Workers have 0 rights and your not getting decent healthcare if your not moderately rich
Btw living costs arent low. Rents are about 600 euros while most paychecks are below 1000
>what is cost of living
>what do you mean european countries' cost of living is lower than the US, where NYC, DC, LA, SF, and Miami have undo influence on national cost of living?
>cost of living is high because a single paycheck is a bit higher than my monthly rent
Oh to have lived in a time where that were a reasonable complaint.
Heh come to Belgrade, lowest rent available + bills (no food included) is more than the median salary
That's the norm in capital cities, you're expected to live with a partner or with roommates. Or have very good jobs.
Just the rent in Amsterdam is more than the median salary.
Lie, you are left with 1000e+ after rent with median salary.
Dont you get gommie rent control in places like Amsterdam THVGH?
>Heh come to Belgrade
do not come. do not come.
>lowest rent available + bills (no food included) is more than the median salary
if you are renting and not living in an inherited block shithole from (insert family member) you are doing it wrong and deserve to eat shit and die
>Rents are about 600 euros while most paychec
oh, disi buraz... da za kurac je, plus, uz sve sto je toliko za kurac i realnu nezaposlentost 20% uvoeze tamo nekakve indijce, crnce.
strasno, sva sreca pa sam developer i ne utjece na moju placu
>uvoeze tamo nekakve indijce, crnce.
nepalci
>Europe
>Low cost of living.
Lmao
From my experience talking to Americans their cost of living is much higher than what we have here in the UK, and ours is quite high compared to Europe. Must be an anglo thing to take the piss out of your customers.
Euro tech is proper cooked. For more than a decade European masters have decided that programming is monkey work fit for Lebensraum untermenschen and have outsourced almost tech to Eastern Europe, and everyone in the West is a makework analyst with zero technical background (though somehow there are armies of them).
Most West Euro companies dev workforces consist of majority East Europeans ( Poles, Ukrainians and Russians ) where West Euro salaries still spend well.
They got majorly buttfricked by Mr. Putin's military adventurism where it became untenable to employ Russians and Ukrainians. They migrated their devs out of these countries by the tens of thousands and still experienced a crazy loss of workforce.
West Euros sucked at tech anyways because the salaries were low, and even if they weren't, its customary to tax high paid people to death. And even if you make 100k Euro/yr yo are still one of the working poor in places like Bavaria and can't hold a candle to the asset-owning wealth class.
Anyone who had a shred of talent and ambition has already left for the US.
i wish this was true but really its more like, the euro might take thursday and friday off for a 4 day weekend, and then maybe one proper week long holiday a year. the rest of the vacation days will get sprinkled around for personal errands and stuff.
idk every time I'm on vacation every Euro I run into is on week 6 of a 3 month break
UK and Germany are really bad for IT salaries
vacation days start at 25-30 in germany, grow to over 40 with seniority
Up to you how to spend them, but theres also many more public holidays and people like to fill the gaps left over when those fall on a tuesday or thursday
Is €90k gross bad for Germany?
No, thats pretty decent for an IC in germany outside of the 5 biggest cities
Thats 61k net after taxes and health insurance if youre married only breadwinner,
thats just over 6 years of net salary for one of these fully furnished middle class houses if outside the city
Investments are hindered by bureaucracy and companies still place a lot more value on being some middle-manager than being a great dev
Now theyre trying to play catch-up by hiring consultants and outsourcing to jeet farms
>700k for 160m2
LMAO
thats the building, not the property's size
developers usually include a few larger, stand-alone homes, those come at a premium
or pay half the price for only 20% less
The house I grew up in was from 1964 and had 250m2. It sold for 230k euro. It shared one side with the neighbor but you couldn't hear them. Forest everywhere, peace and quiet. When it rained everything smelled of wet forest, ity was a residential neighbourhood. and the street was almost a dead end.
Anything less than that deserves to be worth less easily.
I couldn't buy it because living in it alone would just make me depressed.
The reason it's bad is because the UK and Germany has a lot of skilled, capable workers but no mega corps or IT manufacturing. Anytime the UK or Germany produces a decent software company it gets bought up by a bigger company from another country. So you have a lot of skilled IT workers at small/middling companies, it's an EU wide problem, how do you compete with essentially a handful of US monopolies?
You are required by law in France to take two weeks consecutively in holiday.
>European company customer service
>HELLO TO YOU GOOD SIR I AM PAJEET FROM <COMPANY> HOW MAY I HELP YOU?
>American company customer service
>HELLO TO YOU GOOD SIR I AM PAJEET FROM <COMPANY> HOW MAY I HELP YOU?
programmers are overvalued in the US and undervalued in the Europe
>overvalued in the US
programmers have been devalued enormously in the US over the past 20 years due to a flood of degree mill H1B jeets stealing american jobs. the average programmer salary is like 70k here, which is the same as its been since the 1990s when my mother was a programmer, except you don't even get benefits today and you're more likely to have to work as a contractor than an actual full time employee in many places.
for reference it's like 55-60k in most of europe and the cost of living there is lower than where you'd make 70k in the US.
Those huge american tech salaries are only possible due to investment capital flowing into the tech sector. It's not a coincidence that tech companies started downsizing once the fed rate hike hit and the interest-free money stream dried up.
Europe doesn't have a competitive tech sector and noone invests in it, therefor there isn't alot of money to go around.
Furthermore the HM Treasury posting is a public servant role and those always tend to pay worse than the private sector. Not to mention that wages are determined by decades old contracts that aren't up to speed with current job market demands.
> Not to mention that wages are determined by decades old contracts that aren't up to speed with current job market demands.
In Britain public sector tends to pay better than private. Only hedgefunds and the like would pay more. The problem with UK in particular is that you have a HR company called Hays. Almost every big company turns to Hays who ranks employees on certain scales and hierarchy. It always makes managers of any kind earn more than established professionals because of ''responsibility''. This of course is utter bullshit since it ignores supply & demand and the fact that a dev often just gets the responsibility of a manager anyway since he the dev has full control over how the end product works.
No clue. Also it is overrun worse than US by third worlders. In UK these third worlders don't even need to work they get into social housing and maybe work 8-16 hrs a week for their uncle Achmed.
I think UK is currently not even on par with western European countries like Germany, Netherlands, Denmark etc. Your quality of living would be higher in upcoming and growing eastern European countries than current UK. It is amazing how one country collectively ignored calls to move more production in house, kick out third world boat migrants and retain its culture. It is almost comical how anti British UK politicians and those with capital are over there. They're letting it rapidly decline into Moldova level development and corruption.
>In Britain public sector tends to pay better than private.
Grim.
I extrapolated from my experience as a continental, here gov jobs are comfy but pay less.
>I think UK is currently not even on par with western European countries like Germany, Netherlands, Denmark etc. Your quality of living would be higher in upcoming and growing eastern European countries than current UK. It is amazing how one country collectively ignored calls to move more production in house, kick out third world boat migrants and retain its culture. It is almost comical how anti British UK politicians and those with capital are over there. They're letting it rapidly decline into Moldova level development and corruption.
There is nothing really you would miss in the UK versus Denmark or Eastern Europe. Quality of life is high.
It's not just tech, just about any job pays up to a figure more if you compare it to the US.
Making €90k as a lawyer in Germany is a big deal, in the US some make several times as much. Same with truckers who on average make up to mid-six-figures while in Europe they make mid five-figures at best. The only jobs that compare are the absolute bottom-level cleaning, clerk jobs like working at McDonald's but anything else, be it plumbers, lawyers or even fricking cops make a shit ton more in the US.
Meanwhile...
The US printed $7,000,000,000,000 over covid. It was the biggest theft of wealth in human history. The US printed as much as the rest of the world combined. Globally, $14,000,000,000,000 was printed. All of that money was stolen from everyone who needs liquid money while everyone with assets got significantly richer. Fiat currency is slavery.
I can't even Imagine what it was like living in the u.s during the 80s-2000s, Same salaries as today except less taxes and everything is 5x cheaper. Minimum wage would've probably been enough to live like a king in some places.
Saturation + the job is not difficult
Because in Europe they care more about legal departments, business and what not rather than about developers. It shows. EU countries have not just fallen behind US on software but are painfully falling behind BRICS countries (China, Russia and upcoming India kek).
Russia has jack shit when it comes to software. They are using software from the US and China.
Americans have to spend more money so it more or less balances out, of course after removing the extras of the superstar tech companies.
I wonder why zoomers don't want to work anymore
Check the avg living costs in yuropoor.
Healthcare? 100 euros
Rent? 700 euros
Muric**t
Healthcare? 1200 ea
Rent? 1000 (but that ia after I share an apt with 5 friends so it is 6k a month)
Yeah, I would love to bunk with 5 strangers.....
The American IT economy is different than basically the entire rest of the world's because of how much money is floating around in its financial system and how tech companies basically use places like Europe as their expense drain. Google might have staff in France but they file taxes in Ireland so every penny they can squeeze out of their French division goes to Ireland. Their American money ends up being spent on investing and deliberate overstaffing to poach workers.
>because of how much money is floating around in its financial system
Banks can create infinite money. It's all about what type of revenue you could bring in.
The IT market is different because the EU is an American colony and we are not allowed to be as good as the US. That's why we are "transitioning" away from nuclear power, why we have to buy LNG from the US, and why we have a shit IT sector. Also because of greedy employers paying shit wages even though IT personnel adds loads of productivity.
The fricking evasion of nuclear is so goddamned sad. I beg you to become an ecoterrorist and preserve something meaningful
Stfu if you don't know what you're talking about
No Black person, you shut the frick up. You are like 80 levels below me.
Your whole post reek of Dunning Kruger and even your statement are incorrect (France building 12 new nuclear powerplant and most of Europe supporting for more nuclear power)
Shut the frick up moron, we have literally destroyed our nuclear industry on purpose.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-14963575
Germany destroyed it on purpose. Most of Europe is investing after ecomoron finally got silenced.
>Banks can create infinite money
All money is debt. Anyone can create infinite amounts of debt if they're trusted enough. You can tell your friend you owe them one, you've created money. This is also why trust in bank's ability to pay the debt back is key to their success.
Because Hitler lost the war.
americans that went to college need to save 500k to have a networth above 0
Spending less than 1 year of your income on tuition is not an issue.
Because Europe lost WW2 and became an american colony. So the US has all the big techs that employ a ton of people, while europe is kept a client state that buys the products and services that the US builds. Europe is being banned from creating its own big techs, instead it has small companies, so jobs are scarce and low paid.
Finally a good answer
Nah, Europe kept up with the US fairly well until the 2008 financial crisis, it has never recovered ever since.
Communist does that. The more you give the state power over you, the less the companies are able to compete
>UK
>Western Yurop
>gommunist
Every response ITT has been dogshit so far.
LISTEN UP.
Labor compensation generally tracks with productivity. If you're creating more value per worker, you can afford to split some of that excess with your workers in order to grab employees from other firms with your higher compensation packages. This is a law of economics questioned about as little as evolution is in biology. The fact of the matter is that firms in the EU tend to be far less productive than those in the US for a variety of reasons. Over the pandemic, for example, EU average productivity (calculated as value added per worker) rose only 0.6%, where that of the US rose 5%. Idk why this is the case, but if you're looking for an answer to OP's question, this is probably it.
After starting my own company one thing is for sure; compensation has absolutely to do with your productivity. Sure it can define the lowest operating parameters if you suck at running a business and run at zero margin, but in reality people need to generate MORE than their worth to get hired, for people like me to skim the cream from the top.
Also bidding on jobs is completely. One time when I didn't want a job I bid something outlandinshly high, and we still ended up lowballing the next lowest bidder by 3/4th. We made a shitton of money from a basic CRUD webshite. Similar profit would have taken us months now took us weeks.
>has absolutely nothing to do with your productivity
Fixed it for me
Explain how COLA adjustments exist for pay. Does living in an expensive area make you so much more productive that you need to be paid 30% more? Or are they just holding money from you when they think they can?
>Does living in an expensive area make you so much more productive that you need to be paid 30% more?
Yes, because the alternative would be 0 productivity since in that case there wouldn't be anyone to hire. Also, high paying jobs existing in a place drives the payment for other jobs in the same place up, because otherwise there would be no one to hire for those lower paying jobs as they'd all be trying to enter the higher payment market.
Productivity has been rising faster than wages for decades now.
Absolutely not true when managers make more than developers and do absolutely frickall in every place I've worked at.
Quitting over moronic management has been my experience everywhere I go. I don't need someone who can barely open a PDF or make an excel sheet to tell me how the product needs to be made.
Switching companies, my productivity has not gone up (in fact many times down) yet I'm paid more.
Stop being a delusional moron. There is no meritocracy.
I'm a europoor but honestly making £60k while working remotely is comfy and gives you enough free time to do whatever you want, the money isn't that limiting at these rates unless you live in London
ofc you'd get more in the US but for a junior seniority it's not bad and I don't want to emigrate just for work
The picrel job is rather low for med seniority but government jobs don't pay well in general here so kind of expected
>£60k while working remotely
Nobody pays this much for remote jobs here
>Nobody pays this much for remote jobs here
They do, select a better sector
£30k with 2 year experience is way too low even for UK
We were talking about £60k here, not 30.
The other reply you mentioned was about 30k?
And yes you can earn 60k remotely I did straight out of uni, the listing was "hybrid" but not once in a years time was I actually asked to show up in the office.
I work elsewhere now but from what I've heard they still don't require anyone to actually come into their offices.
I had a mate make over 100k on a graduate job in a startup that wasn't remote and he had to work like 10h a day so you can make comparable amount to US, but mine was fully remote so I preferred it cause I'm lazy.
If you work remote it doesn't matter what you earn. You could literally live in Blackpool or Hull for 25 grand a year lol.
thats a figure head position his purpose is to sit there look good and sign whatever the consulting bureau works out. Often they send a handpicked team of indians depending on crucial the project is there will be some head pajeet from the neocon/liberal chiefs from the beyond the pond in there as well.
europoors incomes are public knowledge like it or not
that's because you're comparing Europe to LA/SF/NY/Seattle, not Europe to US
Let's compare NY/SF to another EU top city, Amsterdam:
- college was free
- internship system worked really good, everybody in my class got at least one
- all the people in my age bracket pay 1500 in healtcare per year
- current salary pre bonus 240 000 €
- current salary with bonus 350 000€
- I pay 775 for a single room in a two people house, in the center
- just bought a house for 580 000, 98mq/1000sqft, 2km from the city center in the northern neighbour
- i pay around 49% taxes but cut a lot reinvesting in pension and stocks
- the lowest income person I know that works in tech makes 97 000€
- work from home is a right, everybody does it
- i clock 32 hours per week, 36 sometimes
- 32 days of vacations
- no need to own a car, biking everywhere and efficient public transport
- bike and transport paid by employer
- all the homeless are taken care by the government
- the sketchiest neighbour of town has 120 cases of (soft and hard) crime per year
yeah life is bad in "communist" europe
240k is exceptional even with loads of experience in the Netherlands. Let me guess you have FAANG experience?
not really, there are thousands of finance companies that need real tech, not JS framework du jour. I have a background in formal theory.
Started at 75k four years ago. They really do whatever they can to keep you. I renegotiated my salary twice already and forced their hands with offers from other company in the same space. But there are tons of startup that pay similar wages, even though they require some years of experience.
I frequently read the tweakers.net salary topic and a 350k salaried employee after bonus you rarely see. It's mostly Dutch guys working in the US who have that salary. Or expats that are flown in
because there are a lot of jobs that are tech related but don't classify as pure IT. As I told you, I am in finance. Tons of guys are in BioTech, Electronics of course banking and even farming and automation. Plus you have all the high paying tech companies such as Adien, Databricks (that easily pays >400k), Miro.
It doesn't matter in the end. No one in my circle of friends earn less than 70k, and >80k you can start planning a lot for your future between a mortgage (outside of Amsterdam maybe), stocks/indexes, pension funds and even some bank programs that track inflation. Honestly it's pretty comfy and you can see it in the people here.
nice LARP
>Makes 350'000k
>loses 150k to taxes
Even though this is a larp, the possibility of losing that much to taxes makes me sick.
Europe is dogshit, you only earn money here by being a doctor, lawyer or being some bureaucrat/politician do nothing sucking public money like a parasite. Everyone else gets bled dry by taxes and the state will swing down the full hammer of moronation of the 5 billion EU and local laws on the middle class exclusively. Business in the EU is painful and only for those with connections or giga corporations, starting up your own business is pure cancer.
Doctors make way more money than the most developers in the US too.
Because the tech industry in the US is being flooded with DoD money through shell investment companies.
How's the tech job market in Francistan?
it's grim. all HR people are clueless morrons
very fine, there are frickton of swe, devops, IT or cybersec positions, if you can't find a job with a degree in CS then you're a fricking moron, HR or whatever else bullshit excuse have nothing to do with your failures.
there are so many defense companies or banks that you can always get a good bootstrap very early in your carrier.
spend some time at Thales writing some C++ for radars or some shit then all the linkedin stacies will suck your dick for an interview even if your school was mid.
What about AI/data shit, good opportunities there?
Is a PhD useful for jobs?
The correct question would be why tech salaries are so high in the United States compared to the rest of the world.
Europe (+ Canada) pays a quite well to developers compared to the countries with similar GDP. The median total compensation for junior developers in Japan is like $25k (300 mil yen).
I work a public sector tech job in the EU. Get paid the equivalent of $75k. WFH with my boss not being allowed to tell me to come to the office. Spend at least half my day shitposting on the internet. Boss isn't allowed to reprimand me without asking my permission first or I escalate to HR. Firing me would require a year-long performance improvement plan to be put in place first, one that I'd have to consent to at every step otherwise I get to take my employer to court.
Cost of living is high, but not so high that I couldn't afford to buy a 97sqm 3 bed/2 bath house earlier this year.
Lack of capital. Look at companies listed in Europe that would dwarf US counterpart. Their market cap is at best 10 time lower.
>be americlap
>be too expensive
>get replaced by jeets
lol?
True, American wages are too high. My company has outsourced 95% of our tech workers.
>Why
It's obvious why
>high wages
>low wages
Supply and Demand in Capitalist Labor Market
>fair wages, both minimum and across sectors
Government intervention, Unions etc.
Europe and America are not the same
White people?
No there are more white people in estados obesos in total
>fair wages
As determined by who?
israelites, moor, pajeets and globalists running the country.
we keep our wagies on a short leash
Lards being delusional morons? Must be day ending in y.
>Why are tech salaries so low in EVERYWHERE compared to the United States?
Fixed it for you. Sadly the same no matter where you go. Some minor differences though where the salary is not that bad compared to the cost of living.
Socialism
what's soutien a l'economie, looks really suspicious
look likely gibs but for companies
the absolute state
Life is three times as cheap in Europe
No, it flatly isn't. Europe has huge VATs on everything which destroys your purchasing power.
There are some good pockets of Europe with flat tax (low) rates and without communism but they'll still need another 10-15 years to get their economy going so until then it's a slow increase year to year. Really happy I moved away from the new communism bubble and can live in a white country again.
there's a few places that pay american rates in europe like deepmind and meta and some fintech, but they're really not the majority...
But I just got an offer for 140k (USD equivalent) in europe
In Switzerland thoughbeit
There are established power structures that are protected by the 'ruling class'. US has a much shorter history (so less of it) but the future of it will probably look similar.
Just look at
https://qz.com/694340/the-richest-families-in-florence-in-1427-are-still-the-richest-families-in-florence
> The richest families in Florence in 1427 are still the richest families in Florence
Because the US is the world reserve currency and is at the top of a global pyramid scheme. The salaries are high because the US sets and artifically low interest rate and then export their inflation. The economic principle is known as the cantillon effect. It states that the people nearest to the money creation extract the value from it. US companies are only 2 steps removed from the money printing. It goes federal reserve>banks>US companies>US workers>other countries who have US bonds. The last people to get to spend money eat the inflation. This is the real answer.
Europe has no talent because the u.s steals it all.