>Dune taken at face value is too self contradictory for any reductive summary. >Idiots read texts like idiots
Thanks for the summary. Hermeneusis is a process of the reader transjecting speculative eisegesis to see if they're exegetic.
Dune is a frickfic written by a husband and wife about big sandy wieners and thousands of years of incest. The main character was meant to be born a woman and is trans.
As a cottager, Tolkien could see these themes between drinking strangers piss in parks.
Because it's critical of religious figures and it's characters are morally ambiguous
I have no idea I just saw this opinion shared in a YouTube short I watched recently because my brain is so fried on porn and shortform content that I don't have the attention span to read or research or think for myself. I do this a lot, actually, and I don't think anyone notices.
Yeah you guys probably
Do you think everyone else does? Does my family know I'm full of shit?
My girlfriend hasn't seemed to notice but maybe that's just me missing it again. I've been starting to realize more and more how people truly feel about me and it's scary
>I have no idea I just saw this opinion shared in a YouTube short ... I don't have the attention span to read or research or think for myself.
yea, this is IQfy, it goes without saying, anon.
This is the true answer. He didn't like how a lot of words and names were just made up out of thin air rather than have an etymological usage.
I'd say he's right. It's very lackadaisical and inconsiderate when creating a work of art; you may as well be writing for comic books or pulp. Speaking of that, even Robert E Howard managed to study history and languages to incorporate it into his worlds, of which Tolkien had appreciated.
>He didn't like how a lot of words and names were just made up out of thin air rather than have an etymological usage.
Because Herbert is an American, and Tolkien is an Englishman, and Herbert applied the American perspective on names, in which your name doesn't mean shit. Tolkien, as an upper-class Englishman, was deeply rooted in the meaning and lineage of names, because it's a relic of the Feudal system.
1) he liked multiple anti-Christian writers (Wells, Asimov, Lindsay, etc.),
2) he disliked George MacDonald when he reread him as an adult for Christian preachiness (he says in a letter that explicit religion in fantasy books is fatal),
3) he dislikes his friend Lewis's books that are etymologically or mythologically unsound (satyr in Narnia, linguistic mistakes in Studies on Words).
4) he liked lost world/civilization stories (Atlantis, Haggard, liked Land Under England with some pleasure but considered it distasteful). I haven't read Dune but are the Fremen kinda adjacent to that but they're literally an artificial culture? I can see how Dune might've sucked the fun from a possible lost civilization story element that he would've liked.
>3) he dislikes his friend Lewis's books that are etymologically or mythologically unsound (satyr in Narnia, linguistic mistakes in Studies on Words).
This was a low blow because Lewis had supported him in the past when no one did. Tolkien basically backstabbed him.
1 month ago
Anonymous
People underrate the fact that he wasn't just an autistic curmudgeon, but also a bewildering butthole.
1 month ago
Anonymous
>tfw Lovecraft and Howard were better friends to each other.
1 month ago
Anonymous
Angloids have no friends, they’re just cruel to each other and call that “banter”. Vile creatures.
1 month ago
Anonymous
>Hey that's a cool monster, mind if I reference it? >Go ahead bro!
>Mr Tolkien, what do you think of my book? >NOOOOOOO Mr Tumnus should RAPE Lucy, NOOOOO you can't just have lamp posts in Narnia what the heck
1 month ago
Anonymous
Tolkien sounds annoying to be around.
1 month ago
Anonymous
Lovecraft was a genuine stand up guy who treated his friends well
1 month ago
Anonymous
And Lovecraft was an atheist while Tolkien, the backstabbing traitor, was a Christian. It goes to show that kindness exists without religion.
1 month ago
Anonymous
You either have an opinion or you don't. You don't like something because your friend made it if you have a standard or a real worldview. "backstabbed" what? My opinion for example is that you're either a woman or an arab to think so tribalistic.
1 month ago
Anonymous
Why is it backstabbing to tell your friend the truth? They're artists, why can't they speak frankly about each other's works? IMHO, Lewis' books were more a continuation of his philosophical writings, whereas Tolkien's Legendarium was more esoteric and fantastical.
1 month ago
Anonymous
He spoke behind his back and didn’t support him in a critical moment
1 month ago
Anonymous
source
1 month ago
Anonymous
Tolkien literally murdered Lewis and slept with his wife.
>explicit religion in fantasy books is fatal
Given that politics and ideology have become the new religion, I'd say that you could extend this idea to those as well. Explicit (contemporary) politics and ideology are fatal as well. Even implicitly they cheapen a work, in my opinion, because anyone who has sufficiently strong opinions on specific politics or ideologies is unlikely to be very subtle about it. Something about dogma in general seems to create poor literature.
There was a thread about it the other day. There's not much on it, only Tolkien mentioning offhandedly to a friend he likes Conan, but it makes sense. There's a lot of similarities between Hyboria and Middle Earth, though Tolkien is more academic compared to Howard's folksiness.
[...]
1 month ago
Anonymous
Tolkien would have loved the Hyborian Age, especially if Hubbard lived to expand on it.
Isn't that kind of the point, how all these terms and cultural artefacts just develop a life of their own completely disregarding their actual past or etymology?
Dune makes fun of radical Islam. The Fremen are gullible and buffoonish. The fact that Muslims are watching Dune and whining that the Fremen aren't Muslim enough is hilarious
The movie does some interesting things in making fun of the Fremen and depicting religion as a made-up thing by humans that's used to manipulate people through the inner monologue of the characters, but also makes a fundamentalist Islamic-ish jihad emotionally highly satisfying with the cinematography shots of Paul in his black cape in front of the worm and the big mass of people in front of the Sietch gates as BUM BUM BUM drums pound into your brain.
its a very cynical, pessimistic, morally ambivalent work compared to his own stories. Lol imagine how much he would have viscerally, rabidly hated Game Of Thrones/GRRM's homosexual "MUH ORC TAXES" worldview if he'd ever had the misfortune to experience it
>Tolkien's work is actually fairly pessimistic and cynical
LOTR is brutally idealist, what some people refer to as nobledark. Dune is much more like a subtly grimdark universe
Interesting chart. I’m not too sure what the turnings mean.
1 month ago
Anonymous
For example, the times of the grim dark world created the men of the nobledark world? Is that the logic?
1 month ago
Anonymous
i think thats the implication, whoever designed that diagram is alluding to strauss howe generational theory and spenglerian theories of civilizational lifecycles
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss%E2%80%93Howe_generational_theory
1 month ago
Anonymous
Grim = weak men, dark = hard times
Noble = strong men, bright = good times
1 month ago
Anonymous
this terminology is derived Warhammer40k culture iirc, & bright vs dark refers to the essential emotional or aesthetic character of the universe in question, while noble vs grim refers to the agency/efficacy of average, normal people in that world.
Isnt Narnia nobledark? I’ve only read the 1st book so far but it fits the nobledark description given here [...]
Idk, narnia seems pretty bright to me, even under the tyrannical rule of the white witch, the majority of its citizens are still pure hearted, decent people. certain aspects of this approach pissed off tolkien
1 month ago
Anonymous
> But the weak can dream, and slow-building rage can end a cycle of suffering and loss. A defiant cry in the night can re-ignite the embers of hope.
Literally Narnia. > certain aspects of this approach pissed off tolkien
He was a curmudgeon, with all due respect.
1 month ago
Anonymous
>Literally Narnia.
its not routine to be beaten in narnia tho
Isnt Narnia nobledark? I’ve only read the 1st book so far but it fits the nobledark description given here
https://i.imgur.com/FJqpZsi.jpg
[...] >Is it nobledark if the world is getting worse since the First Age and is implied to never get better until the end of the world?
absolutely, that perfectly conforms to the typical understanding of the nobledark aesthetic: even though the world is fundamentally shit & doom is inevitable, like sam says in the movies, there's still goodness & beauty in it & its worth fighting for. This is a deeply, emotionally idealistic mentality, a tact Dune does not take at all, & I feel like Tolkien disliked & resented fans of the two properties comparing his work with Herberts
Considering Tolkien is a devout Catholic and Dune is about story about the Bene Gesserit, who are female space Jesuits, artificially trying to use eugenics and a breeding program to make a messiah they could control, and it ending in the messiah figure killing billions of people in a space jihad, I don't think it's hard to see. Especially since the Bene Gesserit do not even believe in their own religion, which many conspiracy theories argue is true of the Jesuits.
Also, the idea that all world religions will just naturally merge into slop combinations like Zen Buddhism + Sunni Islam = ZenSunnis and Protestantism + Catholicism = Orange Catholics is something a devout Muslim, Christian, or Buddhist may find objectionable (The Orange Order is an international Protestant group based in Northern Ireland).
The appendix to Dune says the Orange Catholic Bible is an official ecumenical book that combines Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism, which had already synchretised with each other by then.
1) he liked multiple anti-Christian writers (Wells, Asimov, Lindsay, etc.),
2) he disliked George MacDonald when he reread him as an adult for Christian preachiness (he says in a letter that explicit religion in fantasy books is fatal),
3) he dislikes his friend Lewis's books that are etymologically or mythologically unsound (satyr in Narnia, linguistic mistakes in Studies on Words).
4) he liked lost world/civilization stories (Atlantis, Haggard, liked Land Under England with some pleasure but considered it distasteful). I haven't read Dune but are the Fremen kinda adjacent to that but they're literally an artificial culture? I can see how Dune might've sucked the fun from a possible lost civilization story element that he would've liked.
>I haven't read Dune but are the Fremen kinda adjacent to that but they're literally an artificial culture? I can see how Dune might've sucked the fun from a possible lost civilization story element that he would've liked.
They started as Zensunni religious refugees who settled on Arrakis ages ago and adapted to live in its climate.
Shit like this just comes across as lazy and it takes me out of the book. Seems he had a political message first and foremost, under the guise of "fantasy".
Literal reddit opinions aside, Tolkien didn't specifically say why, he only mentioned Dune in a off-hand remark in a letter. It's likely he didn't like it because it didn't use any themes, motifs, symbols etc from antiquity/classics. This was a reason he liked Conan the Barbarian, so it's at least probable it's why he didn't like Dune.
Sci-fi can be pulpy and good, it's hard to make fantasy good without some sort of historical basis.
He only criticized Dune, didn't he? Not the sequels?
My guess (and this is only a guess because we don't know) is that he disliked (A) the drug metaphor (B) the vile behaviors of Baron Harkonen, which is unnecessary to show that a character is evil
He spent his whole life building this world and this story, and he was just insecure that Dune would mog him with a lot less work. Like a kid who spent a month on a drawing and everyone loves it, but then another kid comes around, spends 3 days on a drawing and everyone loves it. First kid gets jealous and insecure.
All the reasoning and explanation of why he doesn't like it is a posteriori, he justifies a feeling from his monkey brain with logic, but it's just pointless talk.
>Muh lampost in a medieval setting >Muh obvious Jesus stand-in >Don't think too hard about 19th Century English SHIRES >Don't worry about the Wandering Odin guy
At least two of his most famous reasons are hogwash and hypocrisy.
Funny that he complains about "lampost in a medieval setting" when in the Hobbit and Lotr you can find: >"The dragon passed like an express train" >"If you had dusted the mantelpiece, you would have found this just under the clock," >"Carefully! Carefully!" he said. "It is not like you, Bilbo, to keep friends waiting on the mat, and then open the door like a pop-gun! >The roar of his voice was like drums and guns >He was watching Bilbo now from the distance with his pale eyes like telescopes.
He didn't hate it. He mostly disliked the overt allegory of it.
I imagine he figured it would only attract Christian readers rather than introduce Christian morals to non-Christians, like LOTR could.
Because the satyr didn't rape the little girl, and in a children's book at that. Imagine unironically sending that letter. Lewis must have been really generous for not cutting contact with him asap.
>Polytheism is better
Why do Christians love to trumpet how amazing the trinity is because it's three Gods but then get extremely butt hurt when it's pointed out that this is polytheism?
How the frick did you extract that from it? Hallucinogens were becoming a big thing in the era, which was more interesting than concerning.
The jihad across the galaxy is not written in a positive light
It's definitely a criticism on religious predestination
>Is it nobledark if the world is getting worse since the First Age and is implied to never get better until the end of the world?
absolutely, that perfectly conforms to the typical understanding of the nobledark aesthetic: even though the world is fundamentally shit & doom is inevitable, like sam says in the movies, there's still goodness & beauty in it & its worth fighting for. This is a deeply, emotionally idealistic mentality, a tact Dune does not take at all, & I feel like Tolkien disliked & resented fans of the two properties comparing his work with Herberts
its all good. to add to my point above, i imagine it chapped tolkiens ass to no end to read his correspondence with fans & hear them rave about how Dune reminded them of LOTR, just because they're both epic sci-fi fantasy war stories with mystical overtones, completely ignoring their vastly different conceptions of good vs evil, beauty vs ugliness, morality vs immorality, etc
>Just because he didn’t like it doesn’t mean he hate it.
are you sure anon? he valued the chronicles of narnia & admired lewis's spiritual philosophies/arguments but he still wrote a longass laundry list of what he viewed as its technical & compositional flaws, whereas he explicitly wrote that he "intensely disliked" Dune & imo intentionally tried to avoid talking about it. it seems like he truly hated it but he felt it would be in bad form/taste to fully articulate the depths of his contempt for it, especially when so many people were recommending it to him & discussing it in tandem with his own story
its always funny seeing straightedges absolutely shit their pants over entheogens. go pray to your desert demons who have abandoned you at best are planning for your enslavement at worse
Dune is anti-Christian agitprop
what? Serious?
He's being harsh. Probably another tweed and sneed Tolkien worshipper. Dune taken at face value is too self contradictory for any reductive summary.
>Dune taken at face value is too self contradictory for any reductive summary.
>Idiots read texts like idiots
Thanks for the summary. Hermeneusis is a process of the reader transjecting speculative eisegesis to see if they're exegetic.
Dune is a frickfic written by a husband and wife about big sandy wieners and thousands of years of incest. The main character was meant to be born a woman and is trans.
As a cottager, Tolkien could see these themes between drinking strangers piss in parks.
He hated books made by a pot head
Dune is interesting but not fun
Because it's critical of religious figures and it's characters are morally ambiguous
I have no idea I just saw this opinion shared in a YouTube short I watched recently because my brain is so fried on porn and shortform content that I don't have the attention span to read or research or think for myself. I do this a lot, actually, and I don't think anyone notices.
us zoomers are all in the same boat, buddy.
>I don't think anyone notices
Oh but we do notice...
Yeah you guys probably
Do you think everyone else does? Does my family know I'm full of shit?
My girlfriend hasn't seemed to notice but maybe that's just me missing it again. I've been starting to realize more and more how people truly feel about me and it's scary
That's such a terrifying idea
We appreciate the honesty
>I have no idea I just saw this opinion shared in a YouTube short ... I don't have the attention span to read or research or think for myself.
yea, this is IQfy, it goes without saying, anon.
Kek shining moment of honesty from random internet gay
You could say the same about ASOIAF, with which Tolkien never expressed any personal gripes.
He didn't like israelite actors staring in films
Kyle MacLachlan isn't israeli.
The new one.
Because it's fricking shit
Cultural and philological vandalism on the part of Herbert.
This is the true answer. He didn't like how a lot of words and names were just made up out of thin air rather than have an etymological usage.
I'd say he's right. It's very lackadaisical and inconsiderate when creating a work of art; you may as well be writing for comic books or pulp. Speaking of that, even Robert E Howard managed to study history and languages to incorporate it into his worlds, of which Tolkien had appreciated.
>He didn't like how a lot of words and names were just made up out of thin air rather than have an etymological usage.
Because Herbert is an American, and Tolkien is an Englishman, and Herbert applied the American perspective on names, in which your name doesn't mean shit. Tolkien, as an upper-class Englishman, was deeply rooted in the meaning and lineage of names, because it's a relic of the Feudal system.
1) he liked multiple anti-Christian writers (Wells, Asimov, Lindsay, etc.),
2) he disliked George MacDonald when he reread him as an adult for Christian preachiness (he says in a letter that explicit religion in fantasy books is fatal),
3) he dislikes his friend Lewis's books that are etymologically or mythologically unsound (satyr in Narnia, linguistic mistakes in Studies on Words).
4) he liked lost world/civilization stories (Atlantis, Haggard, liked Land Under England with some pleasure but considered it distasteful). I haven't read Dune but are the Fremen kinda adjacent to that but they're literally an artificial culture? I can see how Dune might've sucked the fun from a possible lost civilization story element that he would've liked.
>3) he dislikes his friend Lewis's books that are etymologically or mythologically unsound (satyr in Narnia, linguistic mistakes in Studies on Words).
This was a low blow because Lewis had supported him in the past when no one did. Tolkien basically backstabbed him.
People underrate the fact that he wasn't just an autistic curmudgeon, but also a bewildering butthole.
>tfw Lovecraft and Howard were better friends to each other.
Angloids have no friends, they’re just cruel to each other and call that “banter”. Vile creatures.
>Hey that's a cool monster, mind if I reference it?
>Go ahead bro!
>Mr Tolkien, what do you think of my book?
>NOOOOOOO Mr Tumnus should RAPE Lucy, NOOOOO you can't just have lamp posts in Narnia what the heck
Tolkien sounds annoying to be around.
Lovecraft was a genuine stand up guy who treated his friends well
And Lovecraft was an atheist while Tolkien, the backstabbing traitor, was a Christian. It goes to show that kindness exists without religion.
You either have an opinion or you don't. You don't like something because your friend made it if you have a standard or a real worldview. "backstabbed" what? My opinion for example is that you're either a woman or an arab to think so tribalistic.
Why is it backstabbing to tell your friend the truth? They're artists, why can't they speak frankly about each other's works? IMHO, Lewis' books were more a continuation of his philosophical writings, whereas Tolkien's Legendarium was more esoteric and fantastical.
He spoke behind his back and didn’t support him in a critical moment
source
Tolkien literally murdered Lewis and slept with his wife.
Damn, what a chad
big if true
>explicit religion in fantasy books is fatal
Given that politics and ideology have become the new religion, I'd say that you could extend this idea to those as well. Explicit (contemporary) politics and ideology are fatal as well. Even implicitly they cheapen a work, in my opinion, because anyone who has sufficiently strong opinions on specific politics or ideologies is unlikely to be very subtle about it. Something about dogma in general seems to create poor literature.
>Explicit religion is fatal
No, but bad writers use it with the same liberality as good ones.
>Tolkien appreciating Howard's work
Please cite a source. This would rock my world.
There was a thread about it the other day. There's not much on it, only Tolkien mentioning offhandedly to a friend he likes Conan, but it makes sense. There's a lot of similarities between Hyboria and Middle Earth, though Tolkien is more academic compared to Howard's folksiness.
Tolkien would have loved the Hyborian Age, especially if Hubbard lived to expand on it.
Howard*
Isn't that kind of the point, how all these terms and cultural artefacts just develop a life of their own completely disregarding their actual past or etymology?
Muslims are orcs
he's a dumb boomer
He's a Lost Generation. Boomers were born when he was already an old man.
everyone born before 1980 is a boomer
>cheddar man was a boomer
too many muslims(orcs)
muslims are haradrim
Dune makes fun of radical Islam. The Fremen are gullible and buffoonish. The fact that Muslims are watching Dune and whining that the Fremen aren't Muslim enough is hilarious
The movie does some interesting things in making fun of the Fremen and depicting religion as a made-up thing by humans that's used to manipulate people through the inner monologue of the characters, but also makes a fundamentalist Islamic-ish jihad emotionally highly satisfying with the cinematography shots of Paul in his black cape in front of the worm and the big mass of people in front of the Sietch gates as BUM BUM BUM drums pound into your brain.
its a very cynical, pessimistic, morally ambivalent work compared to his own stories. Lol imagine how much he would have viscerally, rabidly hated Game Of Thrones/GRRM's homosexual "MUH ORC TAXES" worldview if he'd ever had the misfortune to experience it
Tolkien's work is actually fairly pessimistic and cynical, it's just more in the background than shoved in your face
>Tolkien's work is actually fairly pessimistic and cynical
LOTR is brutally idealist, what some people refer to as nobledark. Dune is much more like a subtly grimdark universe
Interesting chart. I’m not too sure what the turnings mean.
For example, the times of the grim dark world created the men of the nobledark world? Is that the logic?
i think thats the implication, whoever designed that diagram is alluding to strauss howe generational theory and spenglerian theories of civilizational lifecycles
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strauss%E2%80%93Howe_generational_theory
Grim = weak men, dark = hard times
Noble = strong men, bright = good times
this terminology is derived Warhammer40k culture iirc, & bright vs dark refers to the essential emotional or aesthetic character of the universe in question, while noble vs grim refers to the agency/efficacy of average, normal people in that world.
Idk, narnia seems pretty bright to me, even under the tyrannical rule of the white witch, the majority of its citizens are still pure hearted, decent people. certain aspects of this approach pissed off tolkien
> But the weak can dream, and slow-building rage can end a cycle of suffering and loss. A defiant cry in the night can re-ignite the embers of hope.
Literally Narnia.
> certain aspects of this approach pissed off tolkien
He was a curmudgeon, with all due respect.
>Literally Narnia.
its not routine to be beaten in narnia tho
It is during the white witch’s reign.
Isnt Narnia nobledark? I’ve only read the 1st book so far but it fits the nobledark description given here
It's soviet third-worldist propaganda
> third-worldist
israelite buzzword
Considering Tolkien is a devout Catholic and Dune is about story about the Bene Gesserit, who are female space Jesuits, artificially trying to use eugenics and a breeding program to make a messiah they could control, and it ending in the messiah figure killing billions of people in a space jihad, I don't think it's hard to see. Especially since the Bene Gesserit do not even believe in their own religion, which many conspiracy theories argue is true of the Jesuits.
Also, the idea that all world religions will just naturally merge into slop combinations like Zen Buddhism + Sunni Islam = ZenSunnis and Protestantism + Catholicism = Orange Catholics is something a devout Muslim, Christian, or Buddhist may find objectionable (The Orange Order is an international Protestant group based in Northern Ireland).
The appendix to Dune says the Orange Catholic Bible is an official ecumenical book that combines Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism, which had already synchretised with each other by then.
>I haven't read Dune but are the Fremen kinda adjacent to that but they're literally an artificial culture? I can see how Dune might've sucked the fun from a possible lost civilization story element that he would've liked.
They started as Zensunni religious refugees who settled on Arrakis ages ago and adapted to live in its climate.
Because it mogged him. Herbert built the best fantasy world, simple as.
>it's sci fi!
it's fantasy with space travel dumbass
>Herbert built the best fantasy world,
>characters with names such as "Duncan Idaho" and israelites still exist for some reason
Lol
>passing mention of israelites in Dune
>DA JOOOOOOOOZ
Every time.
>DA JOOOOOOOOZ
Only a israelite would use that. Why so upset, Moshe?
>characters with names such as "Duncan Idaho" and israelites still exist for some reason
Trve fantasykino
trve goyslop
C'mon, the israelites don't even show up until the sixth book, and nobody actually read that one.
Shit like this just comes across as lazy and it takes me out of the book. Seems he had a political message first and foremost, under the guise of "fantasy".
The names are fricked. Really turn me off.
Paul, lady Jessica, Duncan. And then he has decent ones like Stilgar and NaBaron Feyd Rautha
>Why did he hate Dune?
Dune is heterosexual.
there are more female characters than in LOTR, that's true.
>there are more female characters than in LOTR, that's true.
And the women of Dune live in a world where they're libidinal, reproductive and frick.
Dune is mostly dialogue from what I've heard. Tolkien liked myth, not fricking glorified screenplays.
Literal reddit opinions aside, Tolkien didn't specifically say why, he only mentioned Dune in a off-hand remark in a letter. It's likely he didn't like it because it didn't use any themes, motifs, symbols etc from antiquity/classics. This was a reason he liked Conan the Barbarian, so it's at least probable it's why he didn't like Dune.
Sci-fi can be pulpy and good, it's hard to make fantasy good without some sort of historical basis.
Conan also has better prose than Dune. That might've been another reason.
Everyone keeps talking about religion.
He only criticized Dune, didn't he? Not the sequels?
My guess (and this is only a guess because we don't know) is that he disliked (A) the drug metaphor (B) the vile behaviors of Baron Harkonen, which is unnecessary to show that a character is evil
He spent his whole life building this world and this story, and he was just insecure that Dune would mog him with a lot less work. Like a kid who spent a month on a drawing and everyone loves it, but then another kid comes around, spends 3 days on a drawing and everyone loves it. First kid gets jealous and insecure.
All the reasoning and explanation of why he doesn't like it is a posteriori, he justifies a feeling from his monkey brain with logic, but it's just pointless talk.
nice projection
It wasn't staid at all. He was pretty staid, even for a Christian.
dune was too israeli for tolkien
Why did he hate Chronicles of Narnia?
>Muh lampost in a medieval setting
>Muh obvious Jesus stand-in
>Don't think too hard about 19th Century English SHIRES
>Don't worry about the Wandering Odin guy
At least two of his most famous reasons are hogwash and hypocrisy.
Funny that he complains about "lampost in a medieval setting" when in the Hobbit and Lotr you can find:
>"The dragon passed like an express train"
>"If you had dusted the mantelpiece, you would have found this just under the clock,"
>"Carefully! Carefully!" he said. "It is not like you, Bilbo, to keep friends waiting on the mat, and then open the door like a pop-gun!
>The roar of his voice was like drums and guns
>He was watching Bilbo now from the distance with his pale eyes like telescopes.
I increasingly suspect that Tolkien was the personality type that criticized as a kind of affection AS WELL AS derision.
He didn't complain about lampposts in a medieval setting.
He didn't hate it. He mostly disliked the overt allegory of it.
I imagine he figured it would only attract Christian readers rather than introduce Christian morals to non-Christians, like LOTR could.
In hindsight, that's been a great asset for Narnia. It gatekeeps itself.
Because the satyr didn't rape the little girl, and in a children's book at that. Imagine unironically sending that letter. Lewis must have been really generous for not cutting contact with him asap.
Yo send link pls. I need to vindicate my preference for Lewis.
He didn't hate it, he was just bantering with a good friend.
Which other Tolkien books if any are worth reading for someone that has read and enjoyed The Hobbit and LOTR, but is not fanatical about them.
Guess it'd have to be the Silmarillion. People say it's boring but they're morons. I enjoyed every page.
Thanks. What do you think is the best order to read those in?
Silma then Hurin
Children of Húrin, then if you want more stuff in a similar tone but about the rest of the ages, the Silmarillion.
Not to be an ass but at the end of the day his opinion should not invalidate the merits of a work whose greatest sin was being strange to him.
Because he knew the truth:
Dune gets (You) no pune.
Tolkien hated everything, i'd be surprised if he liked anything that isn't a scandinavian folklore tale
He liked Wagner enough to use him as a foundation
He ripped off myths left and right lmao
Islam utterly BTFO
Sounds kino. I like the apocalypse.
>Polytheism is better
Why do Christians love to trumpet how amazing the trinity is because it's three Gods but then get extremely butt hurt when it's pointed out that this is polytheism?
you're dumb as frick.
3 Gods means polytheism, moron
Are you muslim?
No
How could he not?
Dune is an islamophilic, pro drug, anti monomyth deconstruction. Everything about it is the opposite of lotr
>lotr is islamophobic
ok
>the Muslim ersatz race has zero good guys and is allied with Satan
Ok
How the frick did you extract that from it? Hallucinogens were becoming a big thing in the era, which was more interesting than concerning.
The jihad across the galaxy is not written in a positive light
It's definitely a criticism on religious predestination
No one knows because he kept the reasons to himself out of respect.
Tolkien loved hero's journeys with endings that inspire courage and heroism.
Well, Dune has its moments, but it isn't really all that good... And the sequels downright sucked.
Not even close to REH...
>Is it nobledark if the world is getting worse since the First Age and is implied to never get better until the end of the world?
absolutely, that perfectly conforms to the typical understanding of the nobledark aesthetic: even though the world is fundamentally shit & doom is inevitable, like sam says in the movies, there's still goodness & beauty in it & its worth fighting for. This is a deeply, emotionally idealistic mentality, a tact Dune does not take at all, & I feel like Tolkien disliked & resented fans of the two properties comparing his work with Herberts
Oh I looked up the term and deleted my reply before you posted. Nobledark is a good descriptor.
its all good. to add to my point above, i imagine it chapped tolkiens ass to no end to read his correspondence with fans & hear them rave about how Dune reminded them of LOTR, just because they're both epic sci-fi fantasy war stories with mystical overtones, completely ignoring their vastly different conceptions of good vs evil, beauty vs ugliness, morality vs immorality, etc
Why are zoomers like this? Just because he didn’t like it doesn’t mean he hate it.
hated*
>Just because he didn’t like it doesn’t mean he hate it.
are you sure anon? he valued the chronicles of narnia & admired lewis's spiritual philosophies/arguments but he still wrote a longass laundry list of what he viewed as its technical & compositional flaws, whereas he explicitly wrote that he "intensely disliked" Dune & imo intentionally tried to avoid talking about it. it seems like he truly hated it but he felt it would be in bad form/taste to fully articulate the depths of his contempt for it, especially when so many people were recommending it to him & discussing it in tandem with his own story
Oh I didn’t know he had said he intensely disliked it, my bad.
i only learned it myself bc of a video some bookthot posted a few weeks ago tbh https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yaLvkqZ4VZc
its always funny seeing straightedges absolutely shit their pants over entheogens. go pray to your desert demons who have abandoned you at best are planning for your enslavement at worse
Dunc is proto YA slop. The Hunger Games of the 21st century only more male-marketed because boys used to read books.
20th*
Maybe it had to do with shit like spice orgies?