Why didn't the Japs take to religion?
>in b4 samourai are too based to fall for christcuckery
I think they would have loved Islam. And if you scratch them hard enough you'll find that Japanese can be quite superstitious and tribal.
Why didn't the Japs take to religion? >in b4 samourai are too based to fall for christcuckery
What do you mean, they didn't "take to religion"?
They did.
Multiple in fact.
They are one of the most religious people on earth thanks to that.
I know they have Buddhism and shinto. That's why I said they're superstitious. But why did Buddhism, another foreign religion, flourish, while others like catholicism did not?
Same reason, Islam didn't flourish in Europe.
Because they already had an adopted a "foreign religion" and didn't have space for another.
>Same reason, Islam didn't flourish in Europe.
>Because they already had an adopted a "foreign religion" and didn't have space for another.
Go to bed Varg.
Islam was there in Europe too, it was just finally outcompeted by the Christian kingdoms.
European pagans often converted to Christianity without a lot of force, usually for some other benefit like access to trade or alliances. It was possible to convert Japan easily, but moron Jesuits decided to teach peasants instead and they caused trouble.
>moron Jesuits decided to teach peasants instead and they caused trouble.
Portugal had it going good for a while until the Spanish ruined things.
Then the Dutch proceeded to make lots of money on trade in japan.
Being the actual winners here, not killed like the jesuits or losing control of the contact like the Portuguese did.
Total Dutch victory.
Christianity is too subversive and would have needed serious heretical modifications in order to compete with the dictatorial feudal state they had in Japan at the time.
Buddhism is likely easier to control since it is easier to syncretize with native cultures. Japanese (as well as Chinese) rules often rejected Christianity as 1. Christians were notorious for using Christianity to conquer the Philippines and thr Americas and 2. Christians often forced you to conform to their culture. Christian missions were often ways for euro monarchs to expand their influence while it seems to me that Buddhism spread simply through monks.
Buddhism fricking loves syncretism. They have a damn word for it, upaya, expedient means or 方便 (houben) in Japanese. Buddhist monks generally don't get in your face if you leave their temples alone and give them money every so often, most likely in the form of hiring them to perform funeral rites. They don't even give a frick about converting.
Christianity by the 16th century wasn't big on syncretism. They get in your face about converting and just start making demands about what you can or can't do and tell you to trash idols and family heirlooms. Obviously the Japanese weren't big on it and started executing people. Deservedly so.
And when they lifted the ban on religion later it turns out Japanese "Christianity" turned out to be as idolatrous as critics say regular Catholicism is. Probably because they didn't have the kind of philosophical and legal traditions that allowed for Christianity to flourish in Europe.
>executing people. Deservedly so.
>Japanese "Christianity"
Disgusting.
Reminder that King Yama sends you to hell for killing or mistreating holy people.
>christians
>holy people
there's nothing holy in your apocalyptic cult
This certainly explains why no shogun or emperor ever considered making a "Church of Japan". Even if they got to be in charge, I don't think they'd want to quit the ancestor worship.
The idea of converting to Christianity to do what
said was floated a few times, but it got shot down each time it came up because 1) the Pope would throw a fricking fit and 2) the Spanish/Portuguese monarchies would throw a fit. The point of Christianity in Japan was to subvert the country to allow the Spanish/Portuguese to import huge amounts of Black folks to grow and export sugar crops to China, and converting to Christianity as an excuse to centralize just to turn around and reinforce a nativist position would be absurd when they could just centralize and do nativism without the costly and perilous extra step.
They did sort of end up doing this with State Shinto, although in that same line Japan had been run by the "Japanese Church" since like the 600s anyways. The Tenno is the Pope, and all of the other hereditary priesthoods are the Bishops that are technically equal to the Pope but in practice subservient. In Japan as in Europe the local religious elites slowly lost power to the centralized religious authority until, effectively, they were just employees of the top dog.
>to allow the Spanish/Portuguese to import huge amounts of Black folks
why, no matter the topic, american always need to bring up blacks ?
>why, no matter the topic, american always need to bring up blacks ?
Maybe because Americans are all mixed race goblins?
Maybe if Orthodox or other eastern church priests made inroads to Japan that's what we would see. Basically a Japanese byzantine empire
>shinto
there is a common ancestral belief system which unites Shinto and Christianity and by the time Christian missionaries tried to proselytize there the Christian church had already banned that version of the creation myth. So instead of it being successful like it was in Europe, it failed for the same reason Christianity is dying today. The foundational ancestral creation myth is what gave the religion life.
They're crypto-Jews, actually.
>One mask proves they are crypto-jews.
????
You are a moron.
That's from a Japanese talk show where they showcased whackjob theories about being one of the 10 tribes, moron.
Both the Jomon and Yayoi are mysterious tribes, and there respective genealogies have a lot of holes in them, especially Jomon, as their earliest written records were written by the Yayoi who settled the southern parts of Japan.
No but nice try
We koreans are israeli. Japanese are goyim.
>i know they have buddhism and shintoism, but i mean a real religion, not that ooga booga crap
lmao, christian brainrot
It was the first religion that came to the country that had a clear separate cleric class, they used it to further separate the status of the royal family from the commoners. Had roman catholics arrived as soon as constantine converted they would have used that.
Basically like the others said Christianity could have filled the niche Buddhism did, but Buddhism got there first and attempts by the Jesuits to accept things like Ancestor veneration got cracked down on hard, which basically killed conversion to Christianity.
I can sort of see something like Celtic/Irish Christianity of the early middle ages thrive in Japan like
notes, but by the time of the early modern era things were ossifying too much.
William Adams. I have no idea what everyone else is rambling about. Japan has never been anti-christian, just anti-catholic, and they got that from William Adams.
>they got that from William Adams
Stop lying. The Spanish caused the the 26 Martyrs of Japan(1597). William Adams arrived four years after the San Felipe incident (1596).
Sources: Father Santa Maria's Relation del martirio que VI. Padres descalgos Franciscos etc.
Histoire de l'établissement, des progrès et de la décadence du Christianisme dans l'empire du Japon - Pierre-François-Xavier de Charlevoix
>The Dutch caused the the 26 Martyrs of Japan (1597).
ftfy
>ftfy
What year did the Dutch first come to Japan?
Oh, I guess I conflated this event with other later persecutions of Japanese Christians assisted directly by the godless, profligate D*tch merchant scum.
>I watched Shogun and now I think I know history: the post
have a nice day right now Black person
buddhism syncretizes very well and easily melds with the native religion of a populace
>their religions are superstitious nonsense, MY religion is rational!
you can't make this shit up
Where did I say what my religion is?
If you've ever had contact with East Asian superstition and cults you'd know what I mean. Some of their weird beliefs makes any Abrahamic religion look sane and logical in comparison.
The Japanese have never been big on religion or philosophy as a whole, they've never had a strong intellectual tradition. Such beliefs as they have are animistic and superstitious.
Watch Shogun moron
Jesuits get fricked
JAPAN WOULD HAVE BECOME ENTIRELY CHRISTIAN BY THE END OF THE XVII CENTURY, IF HERETICS HAD NOT SOWN DISCORD AT THE TOKUGAWA COURT, THEREBY INTERRUPTING THE CHRISTIANIZATION PROCESS, AND CAUSING JAPAN TO GO INTO IDIOTIC ISOLATIONISM FOR CENTURIES; DESPITE THAT, THE CHURCH IN JAPAN PERSISTS; THANKS BE TO GOD.
>JAPAN WOULD HAVE BECOME ENTIRELY CHRISTIAN BY THE END OF THE XVII CENTURY
Hahaha lol lmao even
moron
yeah it was moronic to claim that all of Japan would have become Christianized
>Idiotic isolation
>Allows the country to develop its own culture, a well-developed political culture, and a high-trust, high-respect society
>Mexico - integrated into the proto-globohomosexual (the church) since the hispanics conquered it
>Murderous shithole
Christianity was unbanned for almost 200 years and its still only 1 percent of the population, says a lot.
>Being a nazi has been legal for like 60 yeasr why do all the people told constantly that nazis are the ultimate evil not become nazis
In the 16th century Japan had from 300,000 to 500,000 Christians
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirishitan
This is an insane number of Christians when you consider it started with just a few dozen missionaries
As for why it didn’t stick, it was repressed by the authorities
I think the European conversions to Christianity was helped by the fact that the religion wasn’t fully centralized Catholicism. The Goths were Arian Christians, for example
European Christianity occurred precisely because it was backed by the state and forced upon people. This is a pattern seen throughout history: Christianity is a religion mean to reinforce state power through top-down doctrinal imposition.
And in Northeast India? Not every state there is Christian, so you can hardly say it was imposed - the Mizos and Nagas converted while their Meitei and Assamese neighbors stayed Hindu.
That it was happily spreading in Japan without it being forced by the authorities contradicts that argument.
>That it was happily spreading in Japan without it being forced by the authorities contradicts that argument.
The fact that it stopped spreading and never became the main religion of Japan Proves that Christianity cannot thrive unless it is enforced by a state authority.
Christianity never would have even survived as a religion if it wasn't for a Roman emperor converting and then making it the official state religion.
>Christianity cannot thrive unless it is enforced by a state authority
Look at the United States, dumb ass.
The Kirishitan were being paid by the Vatican and colonial regimes and did have the backing of local state authorities. That's why there was several hundred thousand of them, because local elites got paid to convert and then started forcing it on people, explicitly looking to Europe as a model.
Northeast India has Christians in it because missionaries gave food, weapons, and money to the shittiest cannibal tribe that they could find on the condition that they become Baptists. In return, the British Empire would fund their headhunting jihad against their neighbors. Once again, it was imposed by state power. This is the case everywhere.
>find local elites
>pay them to convert
>they force the locals to convert at the thread of violence
>the local elites use the wealth to kick their neighbors' teeth in
>they either win or get stomped out by some other subverted local elite
The only Christianities where this wasn't the case are Georgia and Armenia where the Antiroman local elites used Christianity as an ideological unifier to justify opposition to Roman rule, and when they established themselves they just skipped steps 1 and 2.
>European Christianity occurred precisely because it was backed by the state and forced upon people. This is a pattern seen throughout history: Christianity is a religion mean to reinforce state power through top-down doctrinal imposition.
Yeah maybe prior to 1500, but in reality you are talking about Islam. Christianity in Europe has a long history that you are mostly ignoring, you are only talking about the papal times which was corrupted by political motivations. And not even Catholics would dispute that.
No, Islam doesn't spread through this method.
Islamic civilization spreads through violence, absolutely, but the actual memeplex doesn't spread through top-down enforcement of doctrine. It's actually incapable of this, which is why the Islamic world is so fractured. There's no doctrinal central authority that isn't also a political authority (the Caliph), meaning that every theological dispute is also explicitly a political one.
Rather, Islamic beliefs spread through the carrot and stick of access to the Islamic worldmarket and legal system and release from the persecution of dhimmi status. You can totally be a nonmuslim in an Islamic society, it just sucks and you're incentivized to do otherwise: you cannot be a nonchristian in a Christian society, refusal to truckle to tyranny is punishable by death. There's still Zoroastrians, Christians, israelites, even fricking Gnostics in the Islamic world, but there are no Hellenists (okay they've come back but you know what I mean) because, as the Church Fathers explicitly tell us, every single one of them needed to be forced to convert or die. There was no room for an oppressed minority. It's completely counter to the Christian worldview and the goal of the dissolution of all distinctions.
>you cannot be a nonchristian in a Christian society, refusal to truckle to tyranny is punishable by death
"Christian societies" haven't existed in hundreds of years.
>you are only talking about the papal times which was corrupted by political motivations.
Nah, because Protestants doubled down on the worst aspects of Papism
I know a lot of Japanese Christians, we just don't shove our religion down their throats.
>I know a lot of Japanese Christians
1.5% of Japan is Christian...
God's grace takes patience. One of the fruits of the spirit.
>God's grace takes patience.
No, it requires state enforcement.
It disappears whenever the state stops enforcing it.
The west became a majority non religious as soon as the state stopped enforcing it.
Killing the original ethnic religions of Japan and replacing it with the Christian worship of israelites is evil.
I've never seen a state enforce God's grace. Can you give examples?
>I've never seen a state enforce God's grace. Can you give examples?
It's literally the whole history of Christianity with almost no exceptions you fricking moron lol.
>Yeah maybe prior to 1500
Christianity was backed dogmatically by the state after 1500 into the early 1900s you fricking moron lol.
By the time that Christianity arrived in Japan, there were already so many internal divisions in the church that it was basically impossible to evangelize effectively. You had people running around saying "Don't trust those guys, they aren't the same denomination" and trying to convince the Japanese that the Papists were trying to backstab and betray them, and everyone was running interference on eachother. Because of that, the Japanese just thought it was all a scam and decided to just ban all of it.
People who praise the Japanese for rejecting Christianity, they don't realize that their native religious beliefs are the reason why their country is still under continuous military occupation.
There's also other things, like the emperor didn't want to tolerate Christianity because he wanted people to keep worshiping him. And they wanted to keep ancestor worship going as well. So basically Christianity was seen as a threat to the emperor's position because he didn't appreciate something being worshiped in his place.
The Shogun was the ruler of Japan for most of its history, and he decided the laws, not the Emperor, so whatever he felt wasn't reflected in the laws. And do you even know what ancestor worship even is? Do you actually believe it's about worshiping your great great grandpa?
Ancestor worship is about believing everything is a spook, that you have to do things a certain way because it's always been that way, and that bad things happen to you because your dead grandpa is asking for something beyond the grave so you need to kill a deer.
>Ancestor worship is about believing everything is a spook
no, that's animism, not ancestor worship
>that you have to do things a certain way because it's always been that way,
no, that's just general tradition
>and that bad things happen to you because your dead grandpa is asking for something beyond the grave so you need to kill a deer.
close, but also no
Ancestor worship is the believe that dead ancestors can influence the world of the living, that they retain person-hood and that you can be plead to
it's literally praying for your dead grampa to help you
You're wrong too. The "ancestors" that are the subject of worship weren't people, they are "beings" that built their society, disconnected by blood. And these "ancestors" demanded sacrifice, particularly human sacrifice as they ruled over them. And after they died the people kept the rituals and superstitions because they believe their spirits persisted after death and influence their world spiritually instead of physically as they did in the past. Look up the costumes and masks they wear in their rituals, that's what the practitioners say their "ancestors" looked like. They're all similar designs in all corners of the Earth it's practiced in.
>Do you actually believe it's about worshiping your great great grandpa?
Not specifically? But I know that they will burn incense and have a day dedicated to remembering their ancestors. Whether or not they "pray" to them I don't know. I live in east Asia right now and I know that there are ancestor worship ceremonies, in fact I know that people do actively worship their ancestors here. Because that's what natives here told me. But I have never actually seen it personally.
So you're just ignorant to what an "ancestor" is, and you're implying the meaning based on semantics?
Christianity was seen by the Tokugawa Shogunate as a tool of the European powers to subvert/conquer Japan
They did eventually. I have seen the film, when Jesus talked to rodriguez to stamp his image, I thought to my self: would he really say that? And then I thought this is also a sacrifice from love, to save these poor wretches. Wouldn’t jesus do the same? One minute I say he would but then change my mind again.
>would he really say that?
Jesus hated idolatry, so yeah he would. Ranald Macdonald wrote that he gladly stomped on an image of Mary in Japan because he hated idols and images too.
Anon it’s not about idolatry. It’s about what an action publically signifies. It literally means I refuse Christ in public, which Jesus said he will do the same to you if you do it, it could be so by raising your hand.
And what made it more horrible is that the whole future of Christianity depended on him and if he apostatised it would literally mean Japan is lost.
It’s not about the imahe anon.
Except it wasn't about christianity at all, it was about idolatry. You either worship idols, or you destroy them. And Japan decided in this instance to destroy idols. As christianity is the only religion to staunchly reject idolatry in all forms as commanded in the Bible, You are asserting the inverse of what is actually happening.
>Moriyama warned Macdonald that before entering the hall where he was to be interrogated, he would be required to tread on a bronze metal plate with an image of the "Devil of Japan." Macdonald replied that he would have no problem doing so because he "did not believe in images," and Moriyama was obviously please, replying, "Very Good! Very Good!" As MacDonald passed into the room, he put his foot on the plate. "It appeared to be a metallic plate of about a foot in diameter on which I thought I could see the representation of the Virgin and Infant Savior. Being a Protestant, I unhesitatingly did so". - Native American in the land of the shogun
Have you actually watched the film?
The Scorsese one? That's fake history. Propaganda.
Lies
Yes, that's what fake history is, lies.
No you tell lies.
So fictional movies made by Hollywood are the truth, and reality is the lie?
Shutup
If the government hadn't intervened hard Japan would have been 90% christian by like 1870, it was growing mega fast
nooooo we could have had another philippines if not for that damn tokugawa
>"But we have Catholic Japan at home"
christcucks are the equivalent of globohomosexual threatening to take over their country, imagine if they actually succeeded
Let me tell you about it:
>Buddhism devoured what ever Japanese had for shamanism at the time, because the nation wanted literacy.
>Japan was a collection of Buddhist kingdoms.
>Some fanatics Buddhist monks wanted to make war.
>The authorities want to instill order, and put down the various rebellions.
>Some Nationalist want to drive out the Buddhists, and returned back to their own pagan traditions, and try to reverse engineer what they deem as foreign.
>The new religion is Shinto, one of the first neo-pagan religins.
>Buddhists were allowed to come back.
>More Buddhist monk civil wars again.
>Put the rebellion down again.
>A new religion comes now, and they are offering guns.
>Let them Missionary, some people as long as they trade guns, just like how the Buddhist taught them writing.
>Another sect of Christianity tells them they are trying to subvert them.
>The didn’t what then to be like those Buddhist monks, and stamped out those. Christians.
>Some Japanese Christians, because they were being treated like crap by the Samurai, staged a civil war… just like how the Shogun predicted (self prophecy).
Then the rest is history.