Like what kind of person wouldn't talk if you tell them you're gonna pull their nails and teeth out one by one.
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Why do American agencies insist torture doesn't work for interrogations?
Like what kind of person wouldn't talk if you tell them you're gonna pull their nails and teeth out one by one.
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Because people will say whatever you want then to say if it means pain will stop.
They will also tell the truth if that is what will get the pain to stop. Any interrogation cross references with other information to verify.
Anon they will also lie if they don't actually know the truth
Ok morons. Read again the part where it said:
>Any interrogation cross references with other information to verify.
If you can simply verify that information you can get knowledge of it without torture in the first place.
No moron, this is new information. Not something that could be verified by a "clean" interrogation as the information is that scenario would not be gleaned in the first place. A person willing to lie in a clean interrogation would not give any new useful details to crossmatch eg being asked to account for their movements on a particular date. If that person were forced to detail a known event such as a meeting on a certain date this could then be checked against information surrounding that event and also from further interrogations of people picked up as a result. None of that is possible if they simply lie about what they did on that date.
>you can get knowledge of it without torture in the first place
nta but if someone propped your computer up and said "give me the password or I'll kick you in the nuts", you're giving it to them
they can verify if a password is wrong, but not if it is right, torture is effective under certain situations and if the interrogator is logical and understands psychology
I think a lot of people confuse the specifics of the question and think it is either 100% for or against. I think the disadvantages (bad PR, abuse by own staff) outweigh the benefits for western agencies to routinely use it but the people who claim it simply doesn't work need a fricking reality check.
We're usually not talking about computer passwords, but situations separated by time and distance with greater consequences if you're wrong.
Well yeah, only a moron would deny the effectiveness of torture in Jack Bauer -style scenarios where you need some easily verified piece of information NOW, that’s the optimal scenario for it. It also works if you have a high value target who you *know* has tons of juicy info and you have a lot of time to break them in and filter the bad intel from good one.
The problems start when you start using it to squeeze intel from people who theoretically could know something useful, then it basically ends up drowning you in bullshit made up in desperation.
what happens if you cant verify it in meaningful manner before it's too late you moron
How do you know the moron you're torturing even has the info you want, lying or not?
>Tells the truth
"Nah, I think you are lying. Torture continues" :>)
you were btfo in the first reply, give up
>you were btfo in the first reply... g-g-g-give up
Sounds like you are faltering under this torture.
you're an edgy childish homosexual coping with the fact your position is moronic but yes keep filling this thread up with text and cope, it will change the fact you refuted in the first reply
The first reply was a load of r/TodayILearned bullshit that always gets exposed when facts cannot be downvoted and hidden. Torture works. Some of our enemies are much better at it and no one - not Tier One special forces or accomplished secret agents - can resist a professional indefinitely.
>The first reply was a load of r/TodayILearned bullshit that always gets exposed when facts cannot be downvoted and hidden. Torture works. Some of our enemies are much better at it and no one - not Tier One special forces or accomplished secret agents - can resist a professional indefinitely.
you're a fricking degenerate mad that your edgy fantasies can't be argued for logically as a thin cover for your homoerotic sadism, and need to frick off back to your containment board with the other prison homos Hugo Boss fetishists
You are now incapable of making any point to bolster your argument with anything better than childish ad homs. Oh and such a quick invocation of Godwin's Law.
>Any interrogation cross references with other information to verify.
Do Americans really believe this?
this
it's also much easier to just psychologically manipulate the person into giving out the information willingly.
lol, you’ve watched way too many movies.
Tortue only works in extreme cases.
you've watched too many ww2 movies
any FBI agent or government agent is always going to try and pyschologically manipulate a person to get information, because you only need to confirm the information in the first place, but the chances are you already know what's being said because you can easily gather that intellegence through other means.
the world isn't like an episode of batman
>Tortue only works in extreme cases.
How was William Francis Buckley's network being rolled up an "extreme case"?
I've never see a movie where psyche manipulation was portrayed as more effective than slapping people around
you're the one high on goyslop if you think torture porn is a reflection of reality.
People will say whatever their torturer wants just to avoid pain.
Not only is torture morally repulsive, it's also completely ineffective at extracting accurate information out of victims.
Completely ignoring the moral arguments against it, torture is a last resort of the desperate and ineffective. It became such a big deal during the war on terror because Islamic fanaticism is usually accompanied by no fear of death.
That is complete bullshit. They respond to torture which is why Middle East regimes use it fight zealots. There is also good reason why Western special forces are only urged in training to attempt to hold out for a few days. Ever hear the story/watch movie of Bat 21?
What he's saying is torture is uniquely useful against religious extremists because they're weaker to pain than to threats on their life. They want to die, but inflicting massive pain on them without endangering them is something else.
And as I said that is buill;shit. The fact that you are talking about "pain" shows your naivety on the subject. People who are professionally tortured get absolutely broken by the experience.
???
Around the time of the Passion of the Christ beig released it would have further pitched America as the reincarnation of the debauched and cruel empire that tortured Jesus at a time that it was trying to win "hearts and minds".
The most effective interrogators build a rapport or at worst use psychological manipulation like pretending to know something.
bullshit they use pentothal
Sodium thiopental isn't reliable enough for confessions made under its influence to be admissible in court.
kek you fricking homosexual who gives two shits what a court thinks?
>NOOOO YOU CANT HAVE LAWS REEE
The topic is whether torture works not whether cops should be permitted to do so. Stop trying to shift the goalposts you are just seething.
> influence to be admissible in court
intel agencies doing black ops don´t give a frick about courts
What about police torture?
What about it?
Police are bound by courts.
>interrogate a prisoner
>he honestly doesn't know the info you're asking for
>you torture him out of the belief that he's lying
>eventually the prisoner makes something up to get you to stop torturing him
>you end up in a worse position than if you hadn't interrogated him at all, since now you have false information that you think is true
How would you avoid this happening?
Verify the information and cross reference it with multiple sources. Torture is effective at securing information. The US still does it.
>Verify the information is false
>Continue torturing the person who knows nothing
>He/she dies
>All you've achieved is wasted time
You are a moron
Chuds take pleasure in tormenting people they think are inferior to them, that's why they love torture. Trying to argue if it's effective or not it's pointless. It's like with prison reform and supporting harsh punitive policies that are shown to do nothing but turn people into hardened criminals when they finally leave the dungeon after spending 10 years there for stealing an apple 3 times.
>Reeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!! No it cant work that cant be true it just isnt ok?!!!!! Just ignore the number of countries that have mastered the art! it never works!
>number of countries that have mastered the art!
name one
China.
Yeah i think putting moral quandaries some people here seem to just straight up want torture for the sake of it regardless of actual practical use of the information. That's just pure psychopaths.
this
>DURR WE SHOULD JUST TORTUE PEOPLE CAUSE THATS WHAT MURRICA MEANT TO MY GRAMPA
dies
Melodramatic homosexual.
>dude he you are being melodramatic
>just ignore those times were it actually did happen
>the number of countries that mastered the art
and guess what, they all concluded torture doesn't give them accurate info
>and guess what, they all concluded torture doesn't give them accurate info
Now you are just making up bullshit. Seriously, fricking have a nice day. Even the countries that ban it do so because the total negatives outweigh the benefits, they certainly do not "all concluded torture doesn't give them accurate info" because they still tain their own operatives that if they get captured by professional torturers they will not be able to hold out indefinitely.
>they still train their own operatives that if they get captured by professional torturers they will not be able to hold out indefinitely.
>The CIA still trains their recruits that they will not be able to hold out indefinitely if captured by professionals. It works.
Wait, does it mean that masochism is a myth?
Most torture methods with the states goal of attaining information is designed not to kill the person. There are many times in history where information acquired from torture saved lives or provided a serious strategic advantage. At no point did I say it's morally correct. You're a rabid leftist making up random arguments in your head, this is mental illness
Source?
If you already have the information such that you can cross reference it you aren't actually gaining any new information from the person you are torturing, beyond that now you know that the person you were torturing would have this information to give, which is only useful for obtaining information on the person you are torturing.
Absolute crap. You tell someone to give the "whole" story with details. If they run through their day while missing or contradicting details you can verify eg through phone records, surveillance or informants they get told they are lying and get the treatment again until giving more information. Inevitably they learn that they need to give complete information to get some peace. In a clean interrogation they can choose to say "frick you that's what I did that day" and then the interrogators have to leave it or are forced to reveal to the person being interrogated what is already known (bad thing) and they can still tell you to get fricked.
>they can still tell you to get fricked.
They wouldn’t though. Because of the implication.
Implication of what? That some white interrogator cant do shit to them? Happens with local police all the time.
This.
>you can verify eg through phone records, surveillance or informants
Why not use those in the first place?
And what if the subject misremembers details due to the fact that his balls are connected to a car battery?
>And what if the subject misremembers details due to the fact that his balls are connected to a car battery?
He has an incentive to remember every single little thing he can. Some details you really aren't going to "forget" for long.
>Why not use those in the first place?
I just gave an example demonstrating small verifiable details used to inform a bigger picture. You are either incredibly stupid or a disingenuous homosexual who is freaking out about deviation from a democratic underground talking point because it is off script. Possibly both.
The reason people say they regret suicide is that you have to do so to get out of the psychiatric ward.
Suicide attempts, right?
Yeah psychiatric wards are basically the inquisition, you have to confess to get out. If you're not mentally ill but somme bullshit happened and you ended up there, you re stuck until you admit your illness. Almost everyone lies to get out. Just 21th century first world stuff.
And it's ironically hard to get yourself checked in based on your circumstances.
well whatever happens I don't want the guys who would treat a human like that to win
How are you supposed to know their response is truthful? It’s at the whim of the torturer and assumes the person being tortured committed the specific crime they’re looking for, and if they got the wrong person they just wasted a ton of time and effort on the wrong peron and may get completely derailed by faulty intelligence. Use your fricking brain.
>How are you supposed to know their response is truthful? It’s at the whim of the torturer and assumes the person being tortured committed the specific crime they’re looking for, and if they got the wrong person they just wasted a ton of time and effort on the wrong peron and may get completely derailed by faulty intelligence. Use your fricking brain.
Now apply this logic to an interrogation that does not use torture or the threat of it. Wastes even more time and more likelyhood of breadcrumbing false information because they dont give frick. Al Qaeda training even instructed them to tell as much bullshit as possible both in and out of custody for this reason.
because any other agencie also says torture is ineffective for getting info, even ancient spooks such as the spanish inqusition realized getting a guy to willingly confess instead of just beating the shit out of him is more effective simply because they will just say anything to stop getting beaten even if its not accurate which just makes you go on a wild goose chase at best
That is r*ddit level horseshit and they love to cite the example of the low ranking Luftwaffe interrogator who did a shit job and still used the threat of sending them onto the Gestapo to be worked over. Germans and Japanese were shit at it, Brits used it effectively during the war then the Americans were fricking blindsided when their prisoners were worked on by professionals in the Korea and Vietnam conflicts. Read up about William F. Buckley, the CIA shows their trainees a video of one of his interrogations so that it is made clear to them how important security is because they and their friends will not be able to hold out to a trained professional.
you mean the same CIA that was later on forced to admit the "enhanced interigation techniques" they used ended up producing jack shit for useful intel
They never sad this, that is you aprotting r*dditors editorialising cherry picked unclassified reports. For a start, the enhanced interrogation techniques were extremely limited and not comparable to the programs used by historical enemies such as Russia, China, Vietnam Cuba Hezbollah etc. Secondly the CIA still uses much more effective torture techniques indirectly via the extraordinary rendition program. Third, the CIA still trains their recruits that they will not be able to hold out indefinitely if captured by professionals. It works.
>they never said this
>it was just stated in their own reports it failed
cite one that says exactly what you claim.
I will also add that the CIA has always been playing catch up in this field. Pretty much all of their knowledge had to be reverse engineered from SERE training techniques which were only learned by the accounts of released survivors. Do you know what they learned from the high value prisoners sent to Moscow during Korea and Vietnam? Nothing, not a single one of them were seen again. Even when the archives were "open" after the fall of communism in the early nineties the Russians would not give any information on them besides indirectly admitting that they were taken there but "lost".
This post discusses the Central Intelligence Agency's (CIA) efforts in intelligence and counterintelligence, specifically regarding the acquisition of knowledge from SERE (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape) training techniques. SERE training is designed to prepare military personnel, U.S. government employees, and private contractors to survive and resist hostile capture.
The post makes a few claims:
1. The CIA has historically been "playing catch up" in the intelligence field, meaning they were not leading or pioneering (…) but rather learning.
2. The CIA's understanding of certain techniques came from reverse engineering what was learned from SERE training (…) designed to prepare individuals to resist interrogation.
3. The experience of SERE training is necessitated by historical accounts of individuals ("survivors") who were captured and eventually released. These accounts presumably informed the training methods used to resist hostile interrogation and exploitation.
4. During the Korean and Vietnam wars, high-value prisoners sent to Moscow (presumably U.S. military personnel or allies) were never seen again. This implies they were likely captured, and any hope of learning from their potential debriefing upon release was lost since they did not return.
5. Even after the fall of communism in the early 1990s, when Russia opened its archives to some extent (often referred to as "glasnost"), no substantive information on the fate of these prisoners was provided by the Russian authorities. The term "open" is placed in quotes to likely indicate skepticism regarding the completeness or transparency of the archival disclosure.
6. The Russian authorities indirectly admitted that the prisoners were taken to Moscow but claimed they were "lost," which can imply a deliberate ambiguity or avoidance of disclosing what happened to those individuals.
Damn, I was going to torture someone but I guess I won't now. That's my Sunday ruined.
Soon we'll just be able to wiretap their brains
Anyone ever seen the Vietnam kino Bat*21 with Gene Hackman? There is a reason why they risked and lost so many men just to get one guy out when similar downed airmen were abandoned. They sure as shit didn't shrug their shoulders and say "well we know torture doesn't work so he wont spill anything on those top secret ICBMs he worked on".
Just genocide the subhumans who practise torture, problem solved
This. It should get long prison terms (10+ years) with slightly shorter terms for people who are in on a conspiracy. If the victim dies it should be life w/o parole.
b/c it doesn't and we found that out while torturing afghan mule frickers in gitmo
There's also the fact that voters may not want their tax dollars being spent on questionable activities like these that they have no oversight on. Thus a reason for it being eventually challenged judicially.
Are you saying that IQfy users aren't tax payers?
Well Russia uses it and it seems to work great there.
In fact some American spies killed themselves with cyanide during the Cold War cause they were that scared of the KGB.
>what kind of person wouldn't talk
the problem is sometimes you get the wrong person and they have no choice but to make things up to try stop you torturing them.
this is what happened at Guantanamo and the CIA wasted literally billions of dollars and god knows how many man hours following bullshit leads. It was a witch trial type thing. They were waterboarding someone, and he was giving out random names to make it stop, like naming random people he went to school with who had done nothing. then the CIA would go out and nab those guys, then torture them, then they'd name other random people. so on and so on.
According to Dianne Feinstein.
In 1910, José María Grimaldos López, a 28-year-old shepherd from Tresjuncos, went missing.
After several weeks of Grimaldos' disappearance, rumours started to spread around the village about his possible murder, with the assumption that he was murdered by someone who wanted to steal the money he had earned from the sheep sale.
The Civil Guard began torturing and mistreating the detainees to obtain confessions from the defendants and to discover what they had done with the missing corpse. On November 11, 1913, when following the judge of Belmonte's order, the judge of Osa de la Vega certified the death stating that José María Grimaldos López, native of Tresjuncos, died on August 21, 1910, between 8.30 pm and 9.00 pm, murdered by Gregorio Valero and León Sánchez. The record reflects note in the margin: "The body could not be identified because it has not been found".
On February 8, 1926, the priest of Tresjuncos received a letter from the priest of the municipality of Mira (113 kilometres or 70 miles), who requested the baptism certificate of José María Grimaldos in order to celebrate his marriage.
After the indisputable identification of Grimaldos, the Minister of Grace and Justice ordered the retrial of the case and ordered the prosecutor of the Supreme Court to appeal for revision against the sentence of the hearing of Cuenca. On the aforementioned order it is noted that "there are reasonable grounds to believe that the confession of Valero and Sánchez, essential basis of their convictions, were extracted under exceptional continuous violence".
Why did Grimaldos disappeared in the first place?
Who knows.
Because no one ever tortured him. Sad.
Don't know greentext yet? Go back, blackout is over.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Francis_Buckley#Kidnapping_and_death
>Major General Carl Stiner stated that "Buckley's kidnapping had become a major CIA concern. Not long after his capture, his agents either vanished or were killed. It was clear that his captors had tortured him into revealing the network of agents he had established."[25] According to the United States, Buckley had undergone 15 months of torture by Hezbollah before his death. After Buckley's kidnapping, three videos of Buckley being tortured were sent to the CIA in Athens. Interpreters noticed puncture marks indicating he was injected with narcotics. According to several sources, as a result of his torture, he signed a 400-page statement detailing his CIA activities.[5][26] In a video taken approximately seven months after the kidnapping, his appearance was described as follows:
>Go back
to your mom
don't you morons constantly claim holocaust confessions are fake because they were made under torture?
No one is claiming that torture cannot be misused when desired. That does not mean it does not work for extracting information.
You are a moron the point of torture is to spread terror as a preventative measure a la early Soviet Russia, not to gather reliable information
>torture works if you already know all the information you're trying to torture out of people
it genuinely astounds me how fricking stupid and barbaric Americans are
Anyone under torture can say whatever is not a truth pill is just pain
It isn't so much that you can't get accurate information through torture. Everyone has a breaking point; everyone will give up all the valuable information they have at some point. The problem is that you don't know where the accurate information begins and ends.
Let's say you've captured 20 enemies. 4 detainees (let's call them Alpha detainees) have high value information that none of the other detainees (Alpha or otherwise) know. Those 4 also have low to medium grade information that can be verified through more than one of the other detainees. 6 of the other detainees (let's call them Beta detainees) also have low to medium grade information that is either shared by others or which only they know. 10 of the detainees (let's call them Gamma detainees) only know low to medium-grade information that others can verify. They have no information of value exclusively available to them.
With torture, it is incredibly difficult to differentiate the Alpha detainees from the Beta detainees and even potentially the Gamma detainees. It is incredibly difficult to differentiate between high value information exclusively available to an individual from fabrications invented under duress.
So you either chuck this high value information in the bin or you follow up all the fabrications you're given, leading to increased operational risk the more enemies you interrogate (which is literally the opposite of what you're trying to achieve). Meanwhile, the things you can cross-verify are the things you would have largely been able to cross-verify if you'd got your detainees to cooperate without torture.
every secret service does it because it is useful