Putin's ratings skyrocketed when they took Crimea without a shot in 2014, so he figured he'd do it again. Why do ordinary Russians want Ukraine? Russian state media told them that Ukraine is run by neo-nazis who want to genocide the Russian minority, and they believed it.
So, Russian intelligence failed to inform Putin that USA has been reforming Ukraine's army after 2014, and Ukraine's army is not the same as it as in 2014?
Basically yeah, plus they overestimated by a ton how pro-Russian the average Ukrainian is. There is an interview of the web of a few Ukrainian conscripts that were stationed near Hostomel during the invasion, took parts in the fight and were taken as POWs during the initial Russian success. The first question they were asked was "why have you opened fire on us?". The Russians really thought they're gonna be greeted as liberators by the populace and the army is going to stand down.
Anyone who remains in power that long unironically begins to lose themselves to delusions of grandeur. Ever since Putin came back after letting Medvedev take the reins he has been slowly but surely adopting a messianic view of himself and his place in Russian history, he puts out absurdly amateurish historical essays and spends a lot of time fixated on and comparing himself to previous Imperial rulers like Alexander III.
Ukraine is a fixation for multiple reasons ranging from geopolitical, material, and ultimately purest ideology like the delusion that Russia is a continuation of Kievan Rus despite it having a clear, documented history of growth from Muscovy, being separated by centuries, hundreds of kilometers, spoken language, and not even sharing the same administrative and institutional structures as pre-colonization Ukraine, which had previously been a weird mishmash of Byzantine, Polish, Lithuanian, and Teutonic, and later Russian and Soviet governmental influences (Ukraine was never and never has been linguistically or ethnically homogenous). On the material front Ukraine is a genuine existential threat to Russian ability to influence European politics, an independent and EU aligned Ukraine could readily replace Russian fuel and fertilizer and grain supplied at which point Russia would lose almost all ability to influence decision making on the continent, and in the wake of the CSTO unraveling, historical ally India drifting apart from Russia because of Chinese relations, and Central Asia in general actively shopping for new suzerains, a disinterested Europe would be a deathknell for any illusion of Russia being the great power it used to be. There is also a substantial dimension of the invasion that is entirely driven by internal politics but this post is already reaching the size limit. At the end of the day though Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine have been locked in a shadow war for control of MLP porn reserves for years now.
The Russians need to come around and accept that their future is more like Canada but that's alright actually, Canada is much wealthier than them. Similar climate. Doesn't spend much on its military.
Canada is only allowed to be the way that they are because they are Americas hat and America is already prepared to defend them for the sake of maintaining stability in North America. Russia doesn't have the same luxury, they burned all their bridges, not even China is willing to defend them at this point.
>Why does Putin and Russia want Ukraine?
1) Huge resource potential still largely untapped
2) Millions of Russian speakers and Surzyk (Russian creole) that can be easily assimilated and boost Russian demographics of the core population
3) large control of the strategic black sea coastline
4) makes it easier to have more control over pipelines heading to Europe
5) Spent a large chunk of history as being core Russian territory
6) to prevent NATO from turning it into a NATO based and putting missiles aimed at Russia on its territory
The present conflict was mostly instigated by #5, but since the Ukrainians decided to fight instead of negotiate the Russians will take over Ukraine in response and annex as much as they want eventually. In 50 years western Ukraine will probably be a semi-autonomous federal republic of Russia while eastern Ukraine will be regular oblasts. Ukraine still had a chance to preserve statehood via negotiations after the 2022 war started but they blew it.
This
how is a fake made-up country beating the shit out of the world's second army?
Ukraine is losing ground along the entire frontline and has been for weeks
Russia is not a superpower, this was exposed and made obvious in February 2022. America has thus denied its right to a sphere of influence.
> America has thus denied its right to a sphere of influence.
When Russia eventually wins it will have proven/demonstrated its own sphere and its ability to back it up.
>keep Ukraine out of NATO >destroy nationalist and pro western parties >secure oil and gas pipelines to have influence over Europe
That’s pretty much it. The “protecting Russian minorities” is the same bullshit the excuse Russia used with Finland and Georgia. None of Russia’s reason justify what they’re doing
>That’s pretty much it. The “protecting Russian minorities” is the same bullshit the excuse Russia used with Finland and Georgia. None of Russia’s reason justify what they’re doing
Not true, the Ukrainians killed thousands of civilians between 2014-2022 by shooting artillery at civilian areas like Donbass City suburbs and markets,. They fricked around and now they're finding out HARD.
>The present conflict was mostly instigated by #5
I meant to say it instigated by #6, i.e. the conflict was largely started because of Ukraine undergoing a Bandera coup and becoming a anti-Russia and trying to cozy up with NATO
Beautiful vranyo culture right here. Same russian that tried to argue here a week ago that russia is objectively the greatest country in the world since it's the biggest. Same old vranyo dance.
So once upon a time Ukraine was part of the USSR, and it was where much of the USSRs industry came from, but in the Soviet system, only Russia and Moscow truly benefited while the other Soviet satellite states suffered, so they all left, leading to the collapse of the USSR. Ukraine would later assert its independence through later referendums. Russias current narrarative is that thay are simply taking back what is rightfully theirs, which already puts them in a losing position.
>keep Ukraine out of NATO >destroy nationalist and pro western parties >secure oil and gas pipelines to have influence over Europe
That’s pretty much it. The “protecting Russian minorities” is the same bullshit the excuse Russia used with Finland and Georgia. None of Russia’s reason justify what they’re doing
He doesn't want Ukraine, if he wanted he could have easily conquered it in 2014. What he actually wants is to kill, maim and displace as many Russians and Ukrainians as possible to collect gavvah from their suffering. This whole "war" is a human sacrifice.
As others have said, a lot of it is due to geography. But there is also an element of frustration caused by seeing more and more of the former eastern bloc abandon you for your rival. This reached a breaking point with Ukraine since it is one of the 2 most culturally similar countries to Russia
Putin drank his own cool aid and thought that he can re-create the USSR while the west just watches and cries. Seriously, read the demands he wanted from NATO a few months prior to the war. It's hilarious.
>Seriously, read the demands he wanted from NATO a few months prior to the war. It's hilarious.
Remember, Putin is a master-class strategist. He already knew at the time that Ukraine was going to likely require a forced demilitarization and a forced denazification, but he wanted the give Ukraine and the western powers a chance to accomplish this through negotiations, When the western powers demonstrated that they weren't willing to negotiate on NATO expansion to the east, that allowed Putin to say both to his own population and elite circles/the military and to the global south that NATO was uncompromising on NATO expansion and that negotiations were not going to work.
In other words, he made an offer that he knew they would refuse in order to demonstrate their own hypocrisy and aggression, in order to build up a case for why the SMO is justified; but if in the tiny chance they would have been willing to negotiate then he would have probably embraced it.
>>join us or die
That's wrong you dummy. Putin was just asking for Ukraine to be a neutral and non-militarized state back then and for NATO to withdraw from eastern Europe, he wasn't saying anything about Ukraine joining Russia.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Why can't Ukraine have a military? They are a sovereign nation and deserve the rights a sovereign nation has.
5 months ago
Anonymous
> They are a sovereign nation and deserve the rights a sovereign nation has.
In theory yes but we live in the real world where different states have different competing geopolitical interests which they use their power and influence to enforce even at the expense of other states enjoying a sense of “fairness”.
If a larger and more powerful state decides that one of its core interests is in one of its next door neighbors being either allied/non-hostile or demilitarized, then that is the reality that the smaller state has to deal with. It may not seem fair but those are the rules of the game.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Obviously not since Ukraine is very justified in defending itself and its right to exist.
5 months ago
Anonymous
> Obviously not since Ukraine is very justified in defending itself and its right to exist.
I’m not denying that Ukraine may feel justified in defending itself, I was saying that from the point of view of a realist, once Ukraine was aware of Russia’s demands it could choose either the path of compliance or non-compliance. Ukraine made the mistake of choosing non-compliance, and now Ukraine is paying heavily for that and there is a good chance that it will cease to exist as an independent nation. If Ukraine’s most important goal was to preserve its statehood then it would have been much wiser to comply with Russia’s demands to become the Switzerland of eastern Europe.
5 months ago
Anonymous
Nobody believes russia invaded because they felt threatened. Nobody believes russia wouldn't have invaded if ukraine was even more of a soft target.
5 months ago
Anonymous
> Nobody believes russia invaded because they felt threatened.
Russia very clearly felt threatened by the possibility of nuclear missiles and missile defense being deployed on Ukrainian territory only a short distance from Moscow and other heartland areas, and they verbalized this many times. Anyway, regardless of whether you think the Russians were being honest or not it wont change the outcome at this point. And regardless of how trustworthy you consider them to be, complying would have been a better option than what is currently happing (the material, economic and demographic destruction of Ukraine). If Ukraine had complied then Putin would not have been able to justify the invasion to the Russian population like he has successfully justified the current one. Contrary to the absurd notion of Putin having puppet-master like control over every aspect of government in Russia he would not have been permitted to conduct a massive invasion if the government and military didnt see it as justified.
> Nobody believes russia wouldn't have invaded if ukraine was even more of a soft target.
It was 10 times more of a soft target in 2014 before they started to receive weapons from the western countries but Putin chose not to invade the country then.
Nobody believes russia wouldn't have invaded if ukraine was even more of a soft target.
"Russia" is a union of three Russias and is referred to as All-Russia, Triune Russia or Panrussia. Novgorod, Moscow and Kiev, arguably you can make White Russia (Belarus) a fourth component. This is nowadays somewhat regarded as "Russian propaganda" as the other Russias attempt to build their own national identities separate from Moscow. The emperor's title was "Tsar of All Russia" for a reason.
Moscow subdued the rest and became the first among equals, thus it felt and still feels obliged to bring all other Russias under their heel and make Muscovite culture the basis for the standard Russian one, as was the case in most other empires. Paris being the centre of Frenchness, Castille being the centre of Spanishness, etc.
Now, Moscow took a big hit to its prestige with communism, and centuries of anti-Russian propaganda has portrayed them as barbarian and "non-European". Not that they're technological, economic, and intellectual pioneers, but the barbarity is overstated for the most part. This loss of prestige and sense of impoverishment and corruption has exacerbated its territories need to disassociate themselves from Moscow in favor of the West, including, hilariously enough, Kiev itself, the birthplace of the Rus. This is too much for Putin. A red line if you will.
This is just the cultural aspect. Then there's the strategic arguments to be made. After the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia lost its grandeur and position in the world. They're clinging onto their status of being a super power by bringing up nukes every once in a while. Obama famously snubbed Putin by calling Russia a regional power. So a lot of Russia's actions and perspectives can be viewed from this lens, a reluctance to accept their new status as lesser-than-the-Soviets. Putin wanted to make a "grand bargain" (spheres of influence) with the West a few years ago, including over Ukraine, and the West's response was basically silence as if Russia isn't even worth their attention.
Russia is a very flat and open country that has historically been fricked balls deep and impregnated across the ages by various warrior hordes or empires
So to protect their soft creamy center, they’ve expanded their borders as far as possible to give themselves buffer space
That, and Ukraine is the only way they can access the warm Mediterranean
Ukraine is a fake madeup country. It doesn't exist.
how is a fake made-up country beating the shit out of the world's second army?
It isn't.
Stop watching CNN.
It's a proxy war
>Ukraine is a fake madeup country. It doesn't exist.
It is quite a real country, and for nearly two years it has been making invading Russian soldiers real dead
Russia is a fake country and doesn’t exist
Ukraine is Russia's gateway for oil and gas pipelines to the EU so they wanted to ensure it's controlled by a pro-Russian government.
Russia is not a superpower, this was exposed and made obvious in February 2022. America has thus denied its right to a sphere of influence.
Putin's ratings skyrocketed when they took Crimea without a shot in 2014, so he figured he'd do it again. Why do ordinary Russians want Ukraine? Russian state media told them that Ukraine is run by neo-nazis who want to genocide the Russian minority, and they believed it.
So, Russian intelligence failed to inform Putin that USA has been reforming Ukraine's army after 2014, and Ukraine's army is not the same as it as in 2014?
I think wagner getting deleted in 2018 might have been something to consider
Basically yeah, plus they overestimated by a ton how pro-Russian the average Ukrainian is. There is an interview of the web of a few Ukrainian conscripts that were stationed near Hostomel during the invasion, took parts in the fight and were taken as POWs during the initial Russian success. The first question they were asked was "why have you opened fire on us?". The Russians really thought they're gonna be greeted as liberators by the populace and the army is going to stand down.
IMMA HUNGRY FUR UR GRAIN NOM NOM NOM
Anyone who remains in power that long unironically begins to lose themselves to delusions of grandeur. Ever since Putin came back after letting Medvedev take the reins he has been slowly but surely adopting a messianic view of himself and his place in Russian history, he puts out absurdly amateurish historical essays and spends a lot of time fixated on and comparing himself to previous Imperial rulers like Alexander III.
Ukraine is a fixation for multiple reasons ranging from geopolitical, material, and ultimately purest ideology like the delusion that Russia is a continuation of Kievan Rus despite it having a clear, documented history of growth from Muscovy, being separated by centuries, hundreds of kilometers, spoken language, and not even sharing the same administrative and institutional structures as pre-colonization Ukraine, which had previously been a weird mishmash of Byzantine, Polish, Lithuanian, and Teutonic, and later Russian and Soviet governmental influences (Ukraine was never and never has been linguistically or ethnically homogenous). On the material front Ukraine is a genuine existential threat to Russian ability to influence European politics, an independent and EU aligned Ukraine could readily replace Russian fuel and fertilizer and grain supplied at which point Russia would lose almost all ability to influence decision making on the continent, and in the wake of the CSTO unraveling, historical ally India drifting apart from Russia because of Chinese relations, and Central Asia in general actively shopping for new suzerains, a disinterested Europe would be a deathknell for any illusion of Russia being the great power it used to be. There is also a substantial dimension of the invasion that is entirely driven by internal politics but this post is already reaching the size limit. At the end of the day though Russia, Belarus, and Ukraine have been locked in a shadow war for control of MLP porn reserves for years now.
>that image
>Puerto Rico
>Country
Puerto Rico is an unincorporated U.S. territory.
The Russians need to come around and accept that their future is more like Canada but that's alright actually, Canada is much wealthier than them. Similar climate. Doesn't spend much on its military.
Canada is only allowed to be the way that they are because they are Americas hat and America is already prepared to defend them for the sake of maintaining stability in North America. Russia doesn't have the same luxury, they burned all their bridges, not even China is willing to defend them at this point.
That's would be like asking why Germany wants Bavaria.
>Why does Putin and Russia want Ukraine?
1) Huge resource potential still largely untapped
2) Millions of Russian speakers and Surzyk (Russian creole) that can be easily assimilated and boost Russian demographics of the core population
3) large control of the strategic black sea coastline
4) makes it easier to have more control over pipelines heading to Europe
5) Spent a large chunk of history as being core Russian territory
6) to prevent NATO from turning it into a NATO based and putting missiles aimed at Russia on its territory
The present conflict was mostly instigated by #5, but since the Ukrainians decided to fight instead of negotiate the Russians will take over Ukraine in response and annex as much as they want eventually. In 50 years western Ukraine will probably be a semi-autonomous federal republic of Russia while eastern Ukraine will be regular oblasts. Ukraine still had a chance to preserve statehood via negotiations after the 2022 war started but they blew it.
This
Ukraine is losing ground along the entire frontline and has been for weeks
> America has thus denied its right to a sphere of influence.
When Russia eventually wins it will have proven/demonstrated its own sphere and its ability to back it up.
>That’s pretty much it. The “protecting Russian minorities” is the same bullshit the excuse Russia used with Finland and Georgia. None of Russia’s reason justify what they’re doing
Not true, the Ukrainians killed thousands of civilians between 2014-2022 by shooting artillery at civilian areas like Donbass City suburbs and markets,. They fricked around and now they're finding out HARD.
>The present conflict was mostly instigated by #5
I meant to say it instigated by #6, i.e. the conflict was largely started because of Ukraine undergoing a Bandera coup and becoming a anti-Russia and trying to cozy up with NATO
I can't believe CIA forced Yanukovich to reject the one thing he promised in his election campaign
What do you mean?
>the Ukrainians killed thousands of civilians between 2014-2022 by shooting artillery at civilian areas like Donbass City suburbs
Where are the bomes?
Beautiful vranyo culture right here. Same russian that tried to argue here a week ago that russia is objectively the greatest country in the world since it's the biggest. Same old vranyo dance.
I’m a proudly pro-Russian American, of refined Anglo elite stock with ancestry going back to the Mayflower
I wish Putin was president of the USA instead of senile poopy-pants Biden
Holy underaged
>I’m a proudly pro-Russian
Name every Putin doppelganger.
So once upon a time Ukraine was part of the USSR, and it was where much of the USSRs industry came from, but in the Soviet system, only Russia and Moscow truly benefited while the other Soviet satellite states suffered, so they all left, leading to the collapse of the USSR. Ukraine would later assert its independence through later referendums. Russias current narrarative is that thay are simply taking back what is rightfully theirs, which already puts them in a losing position.
he woke up one day and realized that the world will be better once Russia is no more
>keep Ukraine out of NATO
>destroy nationalist and pro western parties
>secure oil and gas pipelines to have influence over Europe
That’s pretty much it. The “protecting Russian minorities” is the same bullshit the excuse Russia used with Finland and Georgia. None of Russia’s reason justify what they’re doing
You forgot the most important one
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Steppe
They want the Orb.
He doesn't want Ukraine, if he wanted he could have easily conquered it in 2014. What he actually wants is to kill, maim and displace as many Russians and Ukrainians as possible to collect gavvah from their suffering. This whole "war" is a human sacrifice.
As others have said, a lot of it is due to geography. But there is also an element of frustration caused by seeing more and more of the former eastern bloc abandon you for your rival. This reached a breaking point with Ukraine since it is one of the 2 most culturally similar countries to Russia
Putin drank his own cool aid and thought that he can re-create the USSR while the west just watches and cries. Seriously, read the demands he wanted from NATO a few months prior to the war. It's hilarious.
>Seriously, read the demands he wanted from NATO a few months prior to the war. It's hilarious.
Remember, Putin is a master-class strategist. He already knew at the time that Ukraine was going to likely require a forced demilitarization and a forced denazification, but he wanted the give Ukraine and the western powers a chance to accomplish this through negotiations, When the western powers demonstrated that they weren't willing to negotiate on NATO expansion to the east, that allowed Putin to say both to his own population and elite circles/the military and to the global south that NATO was uncompromising on NATO expansion and that negotiations were not going to work.
In other words, he made an offer that he knew they would refuse in order to demonstrate their own hypocrisy and aggression, in order to build up a case for why the SMO is justified; but if in the tiny chance they would have been willing to negotiate then he would have probably embraced it.
4D chess
>join us or die
Wow what a decision to make.
>>join us or die
That's wrong you dummy. Putin was just asking for Ukraine to be a neutral and non-militarized state back then and for NATO to withdraw from eastern Europe, he wasn't saying anything about Ukraine joining Russia.
Why can't Ukraine have a military? They are a sovereign nation and deserve the rights a sovereign nation has.
> They are a sovereign nation and deserve the rights a sovereign nation has.
In theory yes but we live in the real world where different states have different competing geopolitical interests which they use their power and influence to enforce even at the expense of other states enjoying a sense of “fairness”.
If a larger and more powerful state decides that one of its core interests is in one of its next door neighbors being either allied/non-hostile or demilitarized, then that is the reality that the smaller state has to deal with. It may not seem fair but those are the rules of the game.
Obviously not since Ukraine is very justified in defending itself and its right to exist.
> Obviously not since Ukraine is very justified in defending itself and its right to exist.
I’m not denying that Ukraine may feel justified in defending itself, I was saying that from the point of view of a realist, once Ukraine was aware of Russia’s demands it could choose either the path of compliance or non-compliance. Ukraine made the mistake of choosing non-compliance, and now Ukraine is paying heavily for that and there is a good chance that it will cease to exist as an independent nation. If Ukraine’s most important goal was to preserve its statehood then it would have been much wiser to comply with Russia’s demands to become the Switzerland of eastern Europe.
Nobody believes russia invaded because they felt threatened. Nobody believes russia wouldn't have invaded if ukraine was even more of a soft target.
> Nobody believes russia invaded because they felt threatened.
Russia very clearly felt threatened by the possibility of nuclear missiles and missile defense being deployed on Ukrainian territory only a short distance from Moscow and other heartland areas, and they verbalized this many times. Anyway, regardless of whether you think the Russians were being honest or not it wont change the outcome at this point. And regardless of how trustworthy you consider them to be, complying would have been a better option than what is currently happing (the material, economic and demographic destruction of Ukraine). If Ukraine had complied then Putin would not have been able to justify the invasion to the Russian population like he has successfully justified the current one. Contrary to the absurd notion of Putin having puppet-master like control over every aspect of government in Russia he would not have been permitted to conduct a massive invasion if the government and military didnt see it as justified.
> Nobody believes russia wouldn't have invaded if ukraine was even more of a soft target.
It was 10 times more of a soft target in 2014 before they started to receive weapons from the western countries but Putin chose not to invade the country then.
Nobody believes russia wouldn't have invaded if ukraine was even more of a soft target.
>he thinks this is 4D
I do this at work and I'm barely engaged
"Russia" is a union of three Russias and is referred to as All-Russia, Triune Russia or Panrussia. Novgorod, Moscow and Kiev, arguably you can make White Russia (Belarus) a fourth component. This is nowadays somewhat regarded as "Russian propaganda" as the other Russias attempt to build their own national identities separate from Moscow. The emperor's title was "Tsar of All Russia" for a reason.
Moscow subdued the rest and became the first among equals, thus it felt and still feels obliged to bring all other Russias under their heel and make Muscovite culture the basis for the standard Russian one, as was the case in most other empires. Paris being the centre of Frenchness, Castille being the centre of Spanishness, etc.
Now, Moscow took a big hit to its prestige with communism, and centuries of anti-Russian propaganda has portrayed them as barbarian and "non-European". Not that they're technological, economic, and intellectual pioneers, but the barbarity is overstated for the most part. This loss of prestige and sense of impoverishment and corruption has exacerbated its territories need to disassociate themselves from Moscow in favor of the West, including, hilariously enough, Kiev itself, the birthplace of the Rus. This is too much for Putin. A red line if you will.
This is just the cultural aspect. Then there's the strategic arguments to be made. After the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia lost its grandeur and position in the world. They're clinging onto their status of being a super power by bringing up nukes every once in a while. Obama famously snubbed Putin by calling Russia a regional power. So a lot of Russia's actions and perspectives can be viewed from this lens, a reluctance to accept their new status as lesser-than-the-Soviets. Putin wanted to make a "grand bargain" (spheres of influence) with the West a few years ago, including over Ukraine, and the West's response was basically silence as if Russia isn't even worth their attention.
It does not, the war is a distraction from something big.
Russia is a very flat and open country that has historically been fricked balls deep and impregnated across the ages by various warrior hordes or empires
So to protect their soft creamy center, they’ve expanded their borders as far as possible to give themselves buffer space
That, and Ukraine is the only way they can access the warm Mediterranean